Adaptable Flanker for Rogues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adaptable Flanker for Rogues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rironin
09-08-06, 07:50 PM The Adaptable Flanker feat from the PHB II allows you to count as occupying any other square you threaten "for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent." Could a rogue with a spiked chain (or possibly a rogue TWFing with a reach weapon and armor spikes, or less likely, a large rogue with natural 10 foot reach) effectively flank (and therefore sneak attack) a medium-sized opponent all by himself? According to the feat, he ought to be able to designate the square opposite his opponent, since he threatens it, and that square, plus his own square would satisfy the requirements.

The only caveat, I suppose, would be that the sneak attack description requires flanking, and this feat provides the condition of threatening "for purposes of determining flanking bonuses." Is sneak attack a flanking bonus? Does getting a +2 flanking bonus imply that you're flanking? Is flanking anything more than getting a flanking bonus? What do you think the RAW has to say about whether this feat could allow a rogue to sneak attack a single foe each round (the feat only allows you to do this against a chosen foe on any given round) simply by being next to him and threatening squares both 5 and 10 feet away? I doubt I'd allow my players to pull this off, mostly because it requires a fairly cheesy weapon choice (I dislike spiked chains, and to a lesser extent the armor spikes + reach weapon combo) just to do it. Thoughts?
StevenO
09-08-06, 08:54 PM If you count as being in both squares with regards to flanking I'd say it is very possible to use sneak attack, at least with the spiked chain. If you can reach a square if a reach weapon then you should be using that weapon to determine the potential creatures you flank, this however leaves the target your reaching over inside that same reach and thus unthreatened/unflanked.
rironin
09-08-06, 09:07 PM The FAQ states that a character with a reach weapon and armor spikes threatens all squares within 5 ft and all squares within 10 ft. I don't think it matters that he can reach the far square with the reach weapon, and threatens the creature itself with the spikes, since the feat says that as long as you threaten the square, it "counts" for flanking purposes.

If this is possible, is it broken or overpowered? Putting aside questions of whether the spiked chain or reach weapon & armor spikes combo is inherently broken, consider that this feat will allow a rogue who is adjacent to any medium-sized opponent to gain flanking bonuses and sneak attack bonuses, without having to catch his opponent flat-footed or have an ally anywhere in the vicinity. Designating the opponent each round is a Swift action, so a rogue who's already next to his opponent can full attack and gain sneak attack and flanking bonuses on every attack. Against a single humanoid opponent, this would be a huge advantage. Aside from that, the feat is fairly useful otherwise, especially with 5 and 10 foot reach; even against opponents that are too large or immune to sneak attacks, you can provide flanking bonuses to yourself or your allies.
Damionte
09-08-06, 09:51 PM It's not possible. You don't threaten squars on the other side of your opponent. So you can't count them since it's only the squares you threaten that you can combine with this feat.

I may be wrong on the wording of the feat in question as I don't hjave it in front of me right now but that's how I remember reading it.

(I hate to make an argument based on a guess on my part. I'll look it up again when I get home, but I believe it works that way.)

If you're using a spiked chain you only threaten squares you have a clean line of sight to. (Same with any reach weapon.) It's why you can't make an attack of opportunity against someone standing 10 feet away from you when someone else is standing in the square 5 feet away.

So essentially (say your keyboards num-pad was our hex thing.) If you're standing in the <2> spot, and the person you are trying to flank is in the <5> spot, you can only use this ability to flank from <1> <2> <3> & <6>. Your opponent himself is giving soft cover to <7> <8> & <9> so you don't threaten them and can't use them to flank from.

Once again that's all based on me getting the wording right for the feat. I'll confirm it all later.
Damionte
09-08-06, 09:52 PM Ahh the person above me confirmed it.

Yes you can only flank from the squares you threaten, and you don't threaten THROUGH other figures.
rironin
09-08-06, 10:22 PM Ahh the person above me confirmed it.

Yes you can only flank from the squares you threaten, and you don't threaten THROUGH other figures.I don't believe that's correct. There is nothing I can find in the PHB's description of threatening, reach weapons, line of sight, and attacking through cover to suggest that you can't threaten and make an attack into a square 10 feet away if there is a creature between the two of you.

The SRD on Threatening:Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. ...
Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.Nothing about line of sight here. The description of cover reinforces the idea that reach weapons can attack through squares occupied by creatures, albeit with a penalty:To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks. (emphasis mine)Further, the definiton of soft cover:Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against melee attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.Thus, I have always ruled that you can make an attack with a reach weapon through a square occupied by a medium creature (be it your ally or an enemy) but that creature provides your opponent with soft cover, granting them a +4 AC Bonus. You can still attack them, and you still threaten their square. I believe this is the accepted practice.

Since you threaten the square on the other side of the creature from you with either a spiked chain or a reach weapon (assuming you've got armor spikes to threaten the creature itself), there is no reason why, according to the RAW, you would not at least gain flanking bonuses using the feat. Whether you would gain sneak attack damage is slightly less clear.
Damionte
09-09-06, 02:09 PM :) It's also on page 151 of the PHB. RIGHT ACCROSS FROM the rule for soft cover.

Cover and Attacks Of Opportunity:
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against someone with cover relative to you.
Damionte
09-09-06, 02:24 PM Hmm looks like I've made an assumption. may send this one off to R&D to see if it needs to be clarified or if it's meant ot be taken as written.

I reasoned that in reverse. That since you can't take attacks of opportunity against someone with cover you don't threaten them. it doesn't actually say that though. It just says that you only can take attacks of opportunity when you threaten someone and that you can't take attacks of opportunity agianst people who have cover relative to you.,

It doesn't say anything about you not threatening those squares.

I believe that they were taking a bit of knowledge for granted here. At the time this was written there wasn't anything else you could possibly do to someone in this situation. I do believe that this is the way this wa sintended but stirctly going on the rules as written you still threaten squares through cover with your reach weapon. You simply can't take attacks of opportunity against them.

As I said though I do not believe this was the way they meant to state that.
Damionte
09-09-06, 02:35 PM Scratch that. Afte a lil more research I found this in the Rules Of The Game (Attacks Of Opportunity II)

Cover: You threaten a creature that has cover against your attacks, but you cannot make an attack of opportunity against such a foe.

So yes I concede that based on your arguments above you could flank with your self using a reach weapon and adaptable flanker.
rironin
09-09-06, 03:22 PM Ah, I see the line of your reasoning. It certainly doesn't seem like the feat was intended to work this way, but I find it interesting that it does appear possible. Still not sure whether people would say a rogue could sneak attack all by himself though.
mrpopstar
09-09-06, 04:17 PM This was recently debated heavily and discussed in great detail. Scroll back through the 'Skills and Feats' forum (I believe that's where it was). I think the end result was that a character with ADAPTABLE FLANKER was incapable of flanking with himself via the use of a reach weapon. Not 100% sure though.
dragonseth
09-09-06, 05:03 PM The wording for flanking is with allies. You do not treat yourself as an ally, you can't flank with yourself. There was a big discussion about this a while back in What's A Player To Do? I believe.
Damionte
09-09-06, 07:32 PM Hmm that's what I get for trusting someone elses quote. I assumed it was allies, but someone quoted the wording differently. I hate when people do that.

The actual wording....

PHB: Page 153
..... flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on theopposite border, or opposite corner.

This was my initial response to this but I had to edit it out when someone quoted a source. I trusted them so didn't double check thier source.

we could have ended it all right at the begining. Oh well at least I learned a little bit more about threatened squares.
Vaelan
09-10-06, 05:31 AM The ability to sneak attack is not a flanking bonus and the ability to sneak attack is contingent upon the status of flanking itself and not upon receiving the +2 bonus to hit.

Also, the definition of the term flank in the glossary requires that there be two people in order to flank.
Dheran
09-12-06, 10:35 AM Also, the definition of the term flank in the glossary requires that there be two people in order to flank. Sure, that's the normal rule. Feats are ways of getting explicit exceptions to the usual rules. Adaptable Flanker says:you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten andYou also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent. So it looks like you can flank an enemy all by yourself, if you have a spiked chain and this feat.
pyropetey9
09-12-06, 06:55 PM I was going to post a reply about this based on the physics of the various weapons that might be used, and point out that nearly all reach weapons require two hands to wield, but I decided to keep things much simpler:

If anyone ever tried to do something this ridiculous in any campaign in which I was involved, I would drag that person outside and beat him or her to death with a tire iron.
rironin
09-12-06, 10:21 PM I was going to post a reply about this based on the physics of the various weapons that might be used, and point out that nearly all reach weapons require two hands to wield, but I decided to keep things much simpler:

If anyone ever tried to do something this ridiculous in any campaign in which I was involved, I would drag that person outside and beat him or her to death with a tire iron.Aside from a spiked chain, the options were a reach weapon with armor spikes as the non-reach weapon (which requires no free hands to use, and counts as an off-hand weapon), or to simply find a way to get natural 10 foot reach - probably by being large sized.

I agree with you! I'd never allow a rogue to do this in my game. I just like trying to find loopholes.
Jerks
09-12-06, 10:58 PM Sure, that's the normal rule. Feats are ways of getting explicit exceptions to the usual rules. Adaptable Flanker says: and So it looks like you can flank an enemy all by yourself, if you have a spiked chain and this feat.

There is nothing about the Adaptable Flanker feat that says that it subverts the normal rule that it takes two to tango...err flank. The character merely can provide flanking bonuses from more than one square. Exceptions to rules are only explicity when, well explicitly said.
Raven Dark
09-13-06, 01:44 AM The wording for flanking is with allies. You do not treat yourself as an ally, you can't flank with yourself. There was a big discussion about this a while back in What's A Player To Do? I believe.

You are your own ally. Just read the PH's glossary under the appropriate entry:
Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, referances to "allies" include yourself.

That, and what Dheran said,

Sure, that's the normal rule. Feats are ways of getting explicit exceptions to the usual rules. Adaptable Flanker says:

...

...and so it looks like you can flank an enemy all by yourself, if you have a spiked chain and this feat.

leads me to wonder why this is still under debate at all.

The rules allow for self-flanking as far as I am concerned--and I do allow this combo if my players are willing to spend the insane amount of feats to pull it off. :rolleyes:
Jerks
09-13-06, 03:14 AM I am not my own ally....

I AM my own grandpaw.
Raven Dark
09-13-06, 08:40 AM I am not my own ally....

I AM my own grandpaw.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rironin 09-08-06, 07:50 PM	The Adaptable Flanker feat from the PHB II allows you to count as occupying any other square you threaten "for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent." Could a rogue with a spiked chain (or possibly a rogue TWFing with a reach weapon and armor spikes, or less likely, a large rogue with natural 10 foot reach) effectively flank (and therefore sneak attack) a medium-sized opponent all by himself? According to the feat, he ought to be able to designate the square opposite his opponent, since he threatens it, and that square, plus his own square would satisfy the requirements. The only caveat, I suppose, would be that the sneak attack description requires flanking, and this feat provides the condition of threatening "for purposes of determining flanking bonuses." Is sneak attack a flanking bonus? Does getting a +2 flanking bonus imply that you're flanking? Is flanking anything more than getting a flanking bonus? What do you think the RAW has to say about whether this feat could allow a rogue to sneak attack a single foe each round (the feat only allows you to do this against a chosen foe on any given round) simply by being next to him and threatening squares both 5 and 10 feet away? I doubt I'd allow my players to pull this off, mostly because it requires a fairly cheesy weapon choice (I dislike spiked chains, and to a lesser extent the armor spikes + reach weapon combo) just to do it. Thoughts?
StevenO 09-08-06, 08:54 PM	If you count as being in both squares with regards to flanking I'd say it is very possible to use sneak attack, at least with the spiked chain. If you can reach a square if a reach weapon then you should be using that weapon to determine the potential creatures you flank, this however leaves the target your reaching over inside that same reach and thus unthreatened/unflanked.
rironin 09-08-06, 09:07 PM	The FAQ states that a character with a reach weapon and armor spikes threatens all squares within 5 ft and all squares within 10 ft. I don't think it matters that he can reach the far square with the reach weapon, and threatens the creature itself with the spikes, since the feat says that as long as you threaten the square, it "counts" for flanking purposes. If this is possible, is it broken or overpowered? Putting aside questions of whether the spiked chain or reach weapon & armor spikes combo is inherently broken, consider that this feat will allow a rogue who is adjacent to any medium-sized opponent to gain flanking bonuses and sneak attack bonuses, without having to catch his opponent flat-footed or have an ally anywhere in the vicinity. Designating the opponent each round is a Swift action, so a rogue who's already next to his opponent can full attack and gain sneak attack and flanking bonuses on every attack. Against a single humanoid opponent, this would be a huge advantage. Aside from that, the feat is fairly useful otherwise, especially with 5 and 10 foot reach; even against opponents that are too large or immune to sneak attacks, you can provide flanking bonuses to yourself or your allies.
Damionte 09-08-06, 09:51 PM	It's not possible. You don't threaten squars on the other side of your opponent. So you can't count them since it's only the squares you threaten that you can combine with this feat. I may be wrong on the wording of the feat in question as I don't hjave it in front of me right now but that's how I remember reading it. (I hate to make an argument based on a guess on my part. I'll look it up again when I get home, but I believe it works that way.) If you're using a spiked chain you only threaten squares you have a clean line of sight to. (Same with any reach weapon.) It's why you can't make an attack of opportunity against someone standing 10 feet away from you when someone else is standing in the square 5 feet away. So essentially (say your keyboards num-pad was our hex thing.) If you're standing in the <2> spot, and the person you are trying to flank is in the <5> spot, you can only use this ability to flank from <1> <2> <3> & <6>. Your opponent himself is giving soft cover to <7> <8> & <9> so you don't threaten them and can't use them to flank from. Once again that's all based on me getting the wording right for the feat. I'll confirm it all later.
Damionte 09-08-06, 09:52 PM	Ahh the person above me confirmed it. Yes you can only flank from the squares you threaten, and you don't threaten THROUGH other figures.
rironin 09-08-06, 10:22 PM	Ahh the person above me confirmed it. Yes you can only flank from the squares you threaten, and you don't threaten THROUGH other figures.I don't believe that's correct. There is nothing I can find in the PHB's description of threatening, reach weapons, line of sight, and attacking through cover to suggest that you can't threaten and make an attack into a square 10 feet away if there is a creature between the two of you. The SRD on Threatening:Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. ... Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.Nothing about line of sight here. The description of cover reinforces the idea that reach weapons can attack through squares occupied by creatures, albeit with a penalty:To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks. (emphasis mine)Further, the definiton of soft cover:Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against melee attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.Thus, I have always ruled that you can make an attack with a reach weapon through a square occupied by a medium creature (be it your ally or an enemy) but that creature provides your opponent with soft cover, granting them a +4 AC Bonus. You can still attack them, and you still threaten their square. I believe this is the accepted practice. Since you threaten the square on the other side of the creature from you with either a spiked chain or a reach weapon (assuming you've got armor spikes to threaten the creature itself), there is no reason why, according to the RAW, you would not at least gain flanking bonuses using the feat. Whether you would gain sneak attack damage is slightly less clear.
Damionte 09-09-06, 02:09 PM	:) It's also on page 151 of the PHB. RIGHT ACCROSS FROM the rule for soft cover. Cover and Attacks Of Opportunity: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against someone with cover relative to you.
Damionte 09-09-06, 02:24 PM	Hmm looks like I've made an assumption. may send this one off to R&D to see if it needs to be clarified or if it's meant ot be taken as written. I reasoned that in reverse. That since you can't take attacks of opportunity against someone with cover you don't threaten them. it doesn't actually say that though. It just says that you only can take attacks of opportunity when you threaten someone and that you can't take attacks of opportunity agianst people who have cover relative to you., It doesn't say anything about you not threatening those squares. I believe that they were taking a bit of knowledge for granted here. At the time this was written there wasn't anything else you could possibly do to someone in this situation. I do believe that this is the way this wa sintended but stirctly going on the rules as written you still threaten squares through cover with your reach weapon. You simply can't take attacks of opportunity against them. As I said though I do not believe this was the way they meant to state that.
Damionte 09-09-06, 02:35 PM	Scratch that. Afte a lil more research I found this in the Rules Of The Game (Attacks Of Opportunity II) Cover: You threaten a creature that has cover against your attacks, but you cannot make an attack of opportunity against such a foe. So yes I concede that based on your arguments above you could flank with your self using a reach weapon and adaptable flanker.
rironin 09-09-06, 03:22 PM	Ah, I see the line of your reasoning. It certainly doesn't seem like the feat was intended to work this way, but I find it interesting that it does appear possible. Still not sure whether people would say a rogue could sneak attack all by himself though.
mrpopstar 09-09-06, 04:17 PM	This was recently debated heavily and discussed in great detail. Scroll back through the 'Skills and Feats' forum (I believe that's where it was). I think the end result was that a character with ADAPTABLE FLANKER was incapable of flanking with himself via the use of a reach weapon. Not 100% sure though.
dragonseth 09-09-06, 05:03 PM	The wording for flanking is with allies. You do not treat yourself as an ally, you can't flank with yourself. There was a big discussion about this a while back in What's A Player To Do? I believe.
Damionte 09-09-06, 07:32 PM	Hmm that's what I get for trusting someone elses quote. I assumed it was allies, but someone quoted the wording differently. I hate when people do that. The actual wording.... PHB: Page 153 ..... flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on theopposite border, or opposite corner. This was my initial response to this but I had to edit it out when someone quoted a source. I trusted them so didn't double check thier source. we could have ended it all right at the begining. Oh well at least I learned a little bit more about threatened squares.
Vaelan 09-10-06, 05:31 AM	The ability to sneak attack is not a flanking bonus and the ability to sneak attack is contingent upon the status of flanking itself and not upon receiving the +2 bonus to hit. Also, the definition of the term flank in the glossary requires that there be two people in order to flank.
Dheran 09-12-06, 10:35 AM	Also, the definition of the term flank in the glossary requires that there be two people in order to flank. Sure, that's the normal rule. Feats are ways of getting explicit exceptions to the usual rules. Adaptable Flanker says:you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten andYou also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent. So it looks like you can flank an enemy all by yourself, if you have a spiked chain and this feat.
pyropetey9 09-12-06, 06:55 PM	I was going to post a reply about this based on the physics of the various weapons that might be used, and point out that nearly all reach weapons require two hands to wield, but I decided to keep things much simpler: If anyone ever tried to do something this ridiculous in any campaign in which I was involved, I would drag that person outside and beat him or her to death with a tire iron.
rironin 09-12-06, 10:21 PM	I was going to post a reply about this based on the physics of the various weapons that might be used, and point out that nearly all reach weapons require two hands to wield, but I decided to keep things much simpler: If anyone ever tried to do something this ridiculous in any campaign in which I was involved, I would drag that person outside and beat him or her to death with a tire iron.Aside from a spiked chain, the options were a reach weapon with armor spikes as the non-reach weapon (which requires no free hands to use, and counts as an off-hand weapon), or to simply find a way to get natural 10 foot reach - probably by being large sized. I agree with you! I'd never allow a rogue to do this in my game. I just like trying to find loopholes.
Jerks 09-12-06, 10:58 PM	Sure, that's the normal rule. Feats are ways of getting explicit exceptions to the usual rules. Adaptable Flanker says: and So it looks like you can flank an enemy all by yourself, if you have a spiked chain and this feat. There is nothing about the Adaptable Flanker feat that says that it subverts the normal rule that it takes two to tango...err flank. The character merely can provide flanking bonuses from more than one square. Exceptions to rules are only explicity when, well explicitly said.
Raven Dark 09-13-06, 01:44 AM	The wording for flanking is with allies. You do not treat yourself as an ally, you can't flank with yourself. There was a big discussion about this a while back in What's A Player To Do? I believe. You are your own ally. Just read the PH's glossary under the appropriate entry: Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, referances to "allies" include yourself. That, and what Dheran said, Sure, that's the normal rule. Feats are ways of getting explicit exceptions to the usual rules. Adaptable Flanker says: ... ...and so it looks like you can flank an enemy all by yourself, if you have a spiked chain and this feat. leads me to wonder why this is still under debate at all. The rules allow for self-flanking as far as I am concerned--and I do allow this combo if my players are willing to spend the insane amount of feats to pull it off. :rolleyes:
Jerks 09-13-06, 03:14 AM	I am not my own ally.... I AM my own grandpaw.
Raven Dark 09-13-06, 08:40 AM	I am not my own ally.... I AM my own grandpaw. :confused: :confused: :confused: