Adding abilities to magic weapons/armor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adding abilities to magic weapons/armor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pazu
02-01-06, 08:55 PM I tried asking this question before, but I don't think I explained myself very clearly. So this time, I'm trying again with the rulebook in front of me, and I hope I do better this time!

In the DMG, p. 288, we find a short section regarding adding new abilities to magical items:

A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

(Bolding mine)

Seems straightforward enough, but I'm curious about how this system works with respect to "specific" weapons and armor. Take, for example, the sylvan scimitar, a +3 scimitar which grants the use of the Cleave feat and deals +1d6 of damage when used outdoors in a temperate climate. Price: 47,315 gp. Cost: 23,657 gp, 5 sp + 1893 XP.

Scenario 1: A character owns a +1 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +1 scimitar is 1,000 gp (half the base price of the +1 bonus) + 315 gp (the cost of a masterwork scimitar) = 1,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 23,657 gp 5 sp - 1,315 gp = 22,342 gp 5 sp. As far as I can tell, this is correct by the rules quoted above.

Scenario 2: A character owns a +3 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +3 scimitar is 9,000 gp + 315 gp = 9,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 14,342 gp 5 sp.

Scenario 3: A character owns a sylvan scimitar and wants to increase its enhancement bonus from +3 to +5. The cost to create a +5 scimitar is 25,000 gp + 315 gp = 25,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is 25,315 gp - 23,657 gp 5 sp = 1,658 gp 5 sp ?? This doesn't seem right; it seems far too little.

Scenario 4: A character owns a +5 keen scimitar and wants to make it into a +5 keen sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +5 keen scimitar is 36,000 gp + 315 gp = 36,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is...?

Can someone help me with these scenarios? Is there a general rule I should be following? Thanks!
jaelis
02-01-06, 09:03 PM That's all up to your DM. By RAW, special weapons come as they are and you can't change them or create them any differently.

That said, your scenarios 1 and 2 sound pretty reasonable, but scenarios 3 and 4 are certainly not right. I'm not sure I would allow you to make a +5 version of a sylvan scimitar at all. If I did, I would have to sit down and decide how much it would cost.

For instance, you might note that the +3 ss costs about as much as a +5 weapon. So you could say that the special sylvan abilities are worth about a +2 bonus, meaning a +5 ss would be a net +7 weapon, costing 98000 gp. To increase your +3 ss to a +5 ss would therefore cost about 50000 gp. (Market price, half that to create.)

But that's just an example. In real life, you'd have to convince me to allow it at all, and then I'd probably price it in a more complicated way.
Pazu
02-01-06, 09:40 PM That's all up to your DM. By RAW, special weapons come as they are and you can't change them or create them any differently.

It's kind of odd, isn't it? I mean, first we have the very first sentence in the section on adding magical abilities, which states that a creator may add new abilities to a magical item with no restrictions. Second, there are items in the "Specific Weapons" section which should be able to accept modification easily, e.g. adamantine battleaxe, masterwork cold iron longsword, masterwork silver dagger.

That said, your scenarios 1 and 2 sound pretty reasonable, but scenarios 3 and 4 are certainly not right. I'm not sure I would allow you to make a +5 version of a sylvan scimitar at all. If I did, I would have to sit down and decide how much it would cost.

For instance, you might note that the +3 ss costs about as much as a +5 weapon. So you could say that the special sylvan abilities are worth about a +2 bonus, meaning a +5 ss would be a net +7 weapon, costing 98000 gp. To increase your +3 ss to a +5 ss would therefore cost about 50000 gp. (Market price, half that to create.)

But that's just an example. In real life, you'd have to convince me to allow it at all, and then I'd probably price it in a more complicated way.

I suppose an alternative would be to take the cost calculated in scenario 2 (making a +3 scimitar into a sylvan scimitar), and use that as a flat cost adjustment for the special qualities of the sylvan scimitar (+14,342 gp). So if you wanted to add the "sylvan" ability to your scimitar, it would cost 14,342 gp. On the flip side, if we adhere to this method, then the cost of improving a sylvan scimitar to a +5 sylvan scimitar is identical to improving a regular +3 scimitar to a +5 scimitar. I don't know if this is appropriate or not, since the DMG doesn't contain any weapon special abilities that are valued on a flat cost adjustment (although the 3.0 Oriental Adventures rules had a number of them, and I believe there are some for armor).
RaspK FOG
02-02-06, 09:36 AM Seems straightforward enough, but I'm curious about how this system works with respect to "specific" weapons and armor. Take, for example, the sylvan scimitar, a +3 scimitar which grants the use of the Cleave feat and deals +1d6 of damage when used outdoors in a temperate climate. Price: 47,315 gp. Cost: 23,657 gp, 5 sp + 1893 XP.
Simply enough, it costs as much as a +3 scimitar (18,315 gp) plus the additional abilities (another 29,000 gp). As far as I can tell, the cost to make this weapon would be (the cost of the weapon, which should not be taken into account, as it can be made by either you or someone else, plus) 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP (yup, their math does seem wrong).

Scenario 1: A character owns a +1 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +1 scimitar is 1,000 gp (half the base price of the +1 bonus) + 315 gp (the cost of a masterwork scimitar) = 1,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 23,657 gp 5 sp - 1,315 gp = 22,342 gp 5 sp. As far as I can tell, this is correct by the rules quoted above.
The costs would be, excluding that of the sword, 23,500 gp, minus 1,000 gp, 22,500 gp.

Scenario 2: A character owns a +3 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +3 scimitar is 9,000 gp + 315 gp = 9,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 14,342 gp 5 sp.
Again, subtract the 9,000 gp from the 23,500 gp for a total cost of 14,500 gp.

Scenario 3: A character owns a sylvan scimitar and wants to increase its enhancement bonus from +3 to +5. The cost to create a +5 scimitar is 25,000 gp + 315 gp = 25,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is 25,315 gp - 23,657 gp 5 sp = 1,658 gp 5 sp ?? This doesn't seem right; it seems far too little.
You pay the net increase for a +3 weapon becoming a +5 weapon, or half the difference between 18,000 gp and 50,000 gp, which is equal to 16,000 gp.

Scenario 4: A character owns a +5 keen scimitar and wants to make it into a +5 keen sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +5 keen scimitar is 36,000 gp + 315 gp = 36,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is...?
Again, a +5 weapon costs (excluding the cost of the weapon) 25,000 gp to make, but an effective +6 weapon costs 36,000 gp, so that would cost you 11,000 gp.

Can someone help me with these scenarios? Is there a general rule I should be following? Thanks!
Yes: ignore weapon costs (I'm afraid they, by mistake, added them along with the cost for the abilities themselves, meaning that a more expensive weapon would cost you more to create in terms of both gp and XP), separate ability costs from enhancement costs, and look up for the difference.

The same applies for all purposes in regard to making or buying such weapons.
Pazu
02-02-06, 11:29 AM Thanks for the detailed breakdown! A few questions below:

Simply enough, it costs as much as a +3 scimitar (18,315 gp) plus the additional abilities (another 29,000 gp). As far as I can tell, the cost to make this weapon would be (the cost of the weapon, which should not be taken into account, as it can be made by either you or someone else, plus) 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP (yup, their math does seem wrong).

So the price of the "sylvan" ability is 29,000 gp, which means that the cost of adding "sylvan" to a weapon is 14,500 gp?

[...]

Again, subtract the 9,000 gp from the 23,500 gp for a total cost of 14,500 gp.

This would correspond to what's noted above.

[...]

Again, a +5 weapon costs (excluding the cost of the weapon) 25,000 gp to make, but an effective +6 weapon costs 36,000 gp, so that would cost you 11,000 gp.

You lost me here. If I'm following what we established above correctly, then taking a +5 keen scimitar (effectively a +6 weapon) and making it into a +5 keen sylvan scimitar would cost +14,500 gp, the same as it would cost to add "sylvan" to a +3 scimitar, correct?

Yes: ignore weapon costs (I'm afraid they, by mistake, added them along with the cost for the abilities themselves, meaning that a more expensive weapon would cost you more to create in terms of both gp and XP), separate ability costs from enhancement costs, and look up for the difference.

The same applies for all purposes in regard to making or buying such weapons.

Thanks for the help!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pazu 02-01-06, 08:55 PM	I tried asking this question before, but I don't think I explained myself very clearly. So this time, I'm trying again with the rulebook in front of me, and I hope I do better this time! In the DMG, p. 288, we find a short section regarding adding new abilities to magical items: A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword. (Bolding mine) Seems straightforward enough, but I'm curious about how this system works with respect to "specific" weapons and armor. Take, for example, the sylvan scimitar, a +3 scimitar which grants the use of the Cleave feat and deals +1d6 of damage when used outdoors in a temperate climate. Price: 47,315 gp. Cost: 23,657 gp, 5 sp + 1893 XP. Scenario 1: A character owns a +1 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +1 scimitar is 1,000 gp (half the base price of the +1 bonus) + 315 gp (the cost of a masterwork scimitar) = 1,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 23,657 gp 5 sp - 1,315 gp = 22,342 gp 5 sp. As far as I can tell, this is correct by the rules quoted above. Scenario 2: A character owns a +3 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +3 scimitar is 9,000 gp + 315 gp = 9,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 14,342 gp 5 sp. Scenario 3: A character owns a sylvan scimitar and wants to increase its enhancement bonus from +3 to +5. The cost to create a +5 scimitar is 25,000 gp + 315 gp = 25,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is 25,315 gp - 23,657 gp 5 sp = 1,658 gp 5 sp ?? This doesn't seem right; it seems far too little. Scenario 4: A character owns a +5 keen scimitar and wants to make it into a +5 keen sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +5 keen scimitar is 36,000 gp + 315 gp = 36,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is...? Can someone help me with these scenarios? Is there a general rule I should be following? Thanks!
jaelis 02-01-06, 09:03 PM	That's all up to your DM. By RAW, special weapons come as they are and you can't change them or create them any differently. That said, your scenarios 1 and 2 sound pretty reasonable, but scenarios 3 and 4 are certainly not right. I'm not sure I would allow you to make a +5 version of a sylvan scimitar at all. If I did, I would have to sit down and decide how much it would cost. For instance, you might note that the +3 ss costs about as much as a +5 weapon. So you could say that the special sylvan abilities are worth about a +2 bonus, meaning a +5 ss would be a net +7 weapon, costing 98000 gp. To increase your +3 ss to a +5 ss would therefore cost about 50000 gp. (Market price, half that to create.) But that's just an example. In real life, you'd have to convince me to allow it at all, and then I'd probably price it in a more complicated way.
Pazu 02-01-06, 09:40 PM	That's all up to your DM. By RAW, special weapons come as they are and you can't change them or create them any differently. It's kind of odd, isn't it? I mean, first we have the very first sentence in the section on adding magical abilities, which states that a creator may add new abilities to a magical item with no restrictions. Second, there are items in the "Specific Weapons" section which should be able to accept modification easily, e.g. adamantine battleaxe, masterwork cold iron longsword, masterwork silver dagger. That said, your scenarios 1 and 2 sound pretty reasonable, but scenarios 3 and 4 are certainly not right. I'm not sure I would allow you to make a +5 version of a sylvan scimitar at all. If I did, I would have to sit down and decide how much it would cost. For instance, you might note that the +3 ss costs about as much as a +5 weapon. So you could say that the special sylvan abilities are worth about a +2 bonus, meaning a +5 ss would be a net +7 weapon, costing 98000 gp. To increase your +3 ss to a +5 ss would therefore cost about 50000 gp. (Market price, half that to create.) But that's just an example. In real life, you'd have to convince me to allow it at all, and then I'd probably price it in a more complicated way. I suppose an alternative would be to take the cost calculated in scenario 2 (making a +3 scimitar into a sylvan scimitar), and use that as a flat cost adjustment for the special qualities of the sylvan scimitar (+14,342 gp). So if you wanted to add the "sylvan" ability to your scimitar, it would cost 14,342 gp. On the flip side, if we adhere to this method, then the cost of improving a sylvan scimitar to a +5 sylvan scimitar is identical to improving a regular +3 scimitar to a +5 scimitar. I don't know if this is appropriate or not, since the DMG doesn't contain any weapon special abilities that are valued on a flat cost adjustment (although the 3.0 Oriental Adventures rules had a number of them, and I believe there are some for armor).
RaspK FOG 02-02-06, 09:36 AM	Seems straightforward enough, but I'm curious about how this system works with respect to "specific" weapons and armor. Take, for example, the sylvan scimitar, a +3 scimitar which grants the use of the Cleave feat and deals +1d6 of damage when used outdoors in a temperate climate. Price: 47,315 gp. Cost: 23,657 gp, 5 sp + 1893 XP. Simply enough, it costs as much as a +3 scimitar (18,315 gp) plus the additional abilities (another 29,000 gp). As far as I can tell, the cost to make this weapon would be (the cost of the weapon, which should not be taken into account, as it can be made by either you or someone else, plus) 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP (yup, their math does seem wrong). Scenario 1: A character owns a +1 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +1 scimitar is 1,000 gp (half the base price of the +1 bonus) + 315 gp (the cost of a masterwork scimitar) = 1,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 23,657 gp 5 sp - 1,315 gp = 22,342 gp 5 sp. As far as I can tell, this is correct by the rules quoted above. The costs would be, excluding that of the sword, 23,500 gp, minus 1,000 gp, 22,500 gp. Scenario 2: A character owns a +3 scimitar and wants to turn it into a sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +3 scimitar is 9,000 gp + 315 gp = 9,315 gp. Thus, the cost of the upgrade is 14,342 gp 5 sp. Again, subtract the 9,000 gp from the 23,500 gp for a total cost of 14,500 gp. Scenario 3: A character owns a sylvan scimitar and wants to increase its enhancement bonus from +3 to +5. The cost to create a +5 scimitar is 25,000 gp + 315 gp = 25,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is 25,315 gp - 23,657 gp 5 sp = 1,658 gp 5 sp ?? This doesn't seem right; it seems far too little. You pay the net increase for a +3 weapon becoming a +5 weapon, or half the difference between 18,000 gp and 50,000 gp, which is equal to 16,000 gp. Scenario 4: A character owns a +5 keen scimitar and wants to make it into a +5 keen sylvan scimitar. The cost to create a +5 keen scimitar is 36,000 gp + 315 gp = 36,315 gp. The cost of the upgrade is...? Again, a +5 weapon costs (excluding the cost of the weapon) 25,000 gp to make, but an effective +6 weapon costs 36,000 gp, so that would cost you 11,000 gp. Can someone help me with these scenarios? Is there a general rule I should be following? Thanks! Yes: ignore weapon costs (I'm afraid they, by mistake, added them along with the cost for the abilities themselves, meaning that a more expensive weapon would cost you more to create in terms of both gp and XP), separate ability costs from enhancement costs, and look up for the difference. The same applies for all purposes in regard to making or buying such weapons.
Pazu 02-02-06, 11:29 AM	Thanks for the detailed breakdown! A few questions below: Simply enough, it costs as much as a +3 scimitar (18,315 gp) plus the additional abilities (another 29,000 gp). As far as I can tell, the cost to make this weapon would be (the cost of the weapon, which should not be taken into account, as it can be made by either you or someone else, plus) 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP (yup, their math does seem wrong). So the price of the "sylvan" ability is 29,000 gp, which means that the cost of adding "sylvan" to a weapon is 14,500 gp? [...] Again, subtract the 9,000 gp from the 23,500 gp for a total cost of 14,500 gp. This would correspond to what's noted above. [...] Again, a +5 weapon costs (excluding the cost of the weapon) 25,000 gp to make, but an effective +6 weapon costs 36,000 gp, so that would cost you 11,000 gp. You lost me here. If I'm following what we established above correctly, then taking a +5 keen scimitar (effectively a +6 weapon) and making it into a +5 keen sylvan scimitar would cost +14,500 gp, the same as it would cost to add "sylvan" to a +3 scimitar, correct? Yes: ignore weapon costs (I'm afraid they, by mistake, added them along with the cost for the abilities themselves, meaning that a more expensive weapon would cost you more to create in terms of both gp and XP), separate ability costs from enhancement costs, and look up for the difference. The same applies for all purposes in regard to making or buying such weapons. Thanks for the help!