Adding powers to specific weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adding powers to specific weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NeueRegel
07-19-05, 10:49 AM 3.5

What's the RAW on adding magical weapon abilities to the weapons on the "Specific Weapons" list?

I'm fully conversant with the rules normally, as in, making a +2 vorpal sword out of a +1 sword.

I'm totally down with the +10 non-epic limit, +5 enhancement/+5 powers max.

But for some reason, aside from the line, "The following specific weapons usually are preconstructed with exactly the qualities described here.", I swear I read somewhere that those items were "done"; Set in stone, so to speak, and you couldn't add abilities to them. Yet, I can't find any such thing, now.

It's never come up before, since our campaign predates our conversion to 3.5 by about 17 years, and we *never* played as in the new concept of "buying magic items".

But, now that it's here...

In our last adventure, a player got a wish, from being a druid in the right place in the right time, from a magical pool in a nondimensional garden. He has a sylvan scimitar, and has asked me if he can use the wish to add powers to it, in the manner of a spellcaster adding powers. Same price limit granted by Wish, which we think is 25,000gp (seems good, it's a nice stated amount of what a wish is worth, and only one sentence removed in the description).

Now, if you worthies deem it allowed, I am looking at it like this:

I think I'm breaking down the Sylvan Scimitar correctly, thus:
+3 weapon;
+1 sylvan ability (d6)
Cleave Feat, +15,000gp tacked on.

I hate magic item + feats. Sheesh.

If I'm correct, It's a +4 weapon, in at 32,000gp. The 15,000 tacked on is "spent"; done.

So upgrading from say, a +3 sylvan (+4 total) to a +3 sylvan/keen (+5 total), would be up to a 50,000gp blade (not looking at the 15,000gp tack-on), a difference of 18,000 gp, which is within the 25,000gp limit of the Wish.

Is this looking right to you?

Okay, now to play the devil's advocate:

If I allow this precedent, what happens if a character (let's assume unlimited funds, wont happen in our game!) wants to upgrade an oathbow? It's +2, but it's also +5; it lists no prereqs but "creator must be an elf", etc. Could the player add +8 worth of weapon abilities? Say, an oathbow holy/flaming burst/shocking burst/icy burst? So then you have a bow that is all that, *then +5 vs oath-enemy* etc. In a non-epic weapon, by RAW, but clearly a bit more powerful than the sum of it's parts, it's enhancements and abilities, ie, "+10 plus some".

Okay, I think I've written entirely too much. Sorry, I know your eyes are tired.

I look forward to everybodys' opinions.

I bet Tarkin parses this all down in a wild new +1 to +5 ability breakdown which starts a 4 page debate. :eek:

NeueRegel
Jaid
07-19-05, 11:40 AM there is no RAW in 3.5 by which i meant to say, there is no RAW covering _that_ specific scenario. of course there are RAW in 3.5... they didn't change it that much =P

or, in other words, RAW no change is possible.

you could houserule it to be possible in two ways:

1) the way you have done... try to break down the price to it's component parts. generally, this is not the way to go, since this tends to lead to people wanting to add in those special abilities to other weapons. (often as price modifiers, not + modifiers). for example, wanting to have greatswords that can be wielded as short swords (taking 1 ability from the sun blade).

now then, since you probably don't want that happening (although if your players won't abuse it, it should be ok).

2) the special weapon counts as a weapon of a certain '+' equivalent. you take whatever cost the weapon has, and comnpare it to weapon costs. you always round up (no matter how little it is over by. 33,000 GP is +5, not +4). that is the equivalent weapon '+', and the price to upgrade is the difference between the current '+' and the one they want. don't forget to remove the MW cost, and any special material costs, and the cost of the weapon itself (etc).

as a variation on 2, you could have them pay as if it was the higher + weapon (ie take the difference between current cost and equivalent + cost, and that's how much they have to pay).

there are probably other ways, but those are the only ones i have seen.
tarkin
07-19-05, 11:43 AM 1) First of all re-read wish. When you use it to make a magic item it costs you XP in ADDITION to the 5,000 xp. So you should never use a wish to make a magic item (unless you have so much XP you can spend it freely) If the wish is from someone else, they should give them a magic item that they have laying around, not actually use the Wish to make one. Lets ignore this fact, and just let them do it anyway.

2) RAW does not allow it. They had the chance to make the abilities +x and choose not to. They did it for a reason. In your case, the Sylvan weapon is just a couple thousand short of a +5 weapon, they certainly could have priced the effect out without too much dificulty.

3) People like these abilities and often want to do it anyway. I am one of those people. The types of House Rules fall into:

A) Reasonable rules that keep the spirit of the exponential basis of magic weapons, +1 -> +5, making things "expensive". See below

B) Unreasonable rules that give stuff away "cheap", usually by ignoring the exponential nature of magic weapons and instead going with + 15,000 gp, or something like that. Sorry, but weapons in the WoTC published books have NO +x,000 gp price adjustements, and they do it for a reason. Such things interact with the weapon, so the same ability on a +5 weapon is worth more on a +1 weapon, and therefore SHOULD cost more.

--------
How I would price the item.

The Sylvan weapon costs over 47,315 gp, that basically places it at a bit less than a +5 weapon. You want to increase the power by adding +1 to the weapon.

Moving a +5 weapon to a +6 weapon costs 22,000 gp.

Therefore, moving your Sylvan weapon from +3 to +4 should cost you 22,000 gp (or 11,000 gp plus some xp.)

The value at the end of the day should be: 69,315

(price corrected).
Zherog
07-19-05, 11:53 AM 1) First of all re-read wish. When you use it to make a magic item it costs you XP in ADDITION to the 5,000 xp. So you should never use a wish to make a magic item (unless you have so much XP you can spend it freely) If the wish is from someone else, they should give them a magic item that they have laying around, not actually use the Wish to make one. Lets ignore this fact, and just let them do it anyway.

In addition to this, note that the 3.5 version of wish does not actually place a cap on the value of magic items it can create. The cap only applies to non-magical items. The XP cost is intended to be a built-in cap, of course - but there are ways around that.

Just something else to keep in mind. ;)
NeueRegel
07-19-05, 12:14 PM Great thoughts from all contenders, so far. Thanks.

Of course, now I'm in another quandary altogether.

Okay, the Sylvan Scim is a +5 weapon (equiv). Works for me.

Wish has no cap on the gold price, but for paying double creation XP +5000xp. Glad I reread it.

Quandary: The magic pool granting the wish is paying the xp, not the player character. That could give the player as much as +5 enhancement/ability points to play with.

I'm not going to tell him that. Even though I know he wouldn't abuse it. (He's been flipping between either keen or flaming; Looks like he could have both if I wanted to).

Thanks guys.

Neue

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 07-19-05, 10:49 AM	3.5 What's the RAW on adding magical weapon abilities to the weapons on the "Specific Weapons" list? I'm fully conversant with the rules normally, as in, making a +2 vorpal sword out of a +1 sword. I'm totally down with the +10 non-epic limit, +5 enhancement/+5 powers max. But for some reason, aside from the line, "The following specific weapons usually are preconstructed with exactly the qualities described here.", I swear I read somewhere that those items were "done"; Set in stone, so to speak, and you couldn't add abilities to them. Yet, I can't find any such thing, now. It's never come up before, since our campaign predates our conversion to 3.5 by about 17 years, and we never played as in the new concept of "buying magic items". But, now that it's here... In our last adventure, a player got a wish, from being a druid in the right place in the right time, from a magical pool in a nondimensional garden. He has a sylvan scimitar, and has asked me if he can use the wish to add powers to it, in the manner of a spellcaster adding powers. Same price limit granted by Wish, which we think is 25,000gp (seems good, it's a nice stated amount of what a wish is worth, and only one sentence removed in the description). Now, if you worthies deem it allowed, I am looking at it like this: I think I'm breaking down the Sylvan Scimitar correctly, thus: +3 weapon; +1 sylvan ability (d6) Cleave Feat, +15,000gp tacked on. I hate magic item + feats. Sheesh. If I'm correct, It's a +4 weapon, in at 32,000gp. The 15,000 tacked on is "spent"; done. So upgrading from say, a +3 sylvan (+4 total) to a +3 sylvan/keen (+5 total), would be up to a 50,000gp blade (not looking at the 15,000gp tack-on), a difference of 18,000 gp, which is within the 25,000gp limit of the Wish. Is this looking right to you? Okay, now to play the devil's advocate: If I allow this precedent, what happens if a character (let's assume unlimited funds, wont happen in our game!) wants to upgrade an oathbow? It's +2, but it's also +5; it lists no prereqs but "creator must be an elf", etc. Could the player add +8 worth of weapon abilities? Say, an oathbow holy/flaming burst/shocking burst/icy burst? So then you have a bow that is all that, then +5 vs oath-enemy etc. In a non-epic weapon, by RAW, but clearly a bit more powerful than the sum of it's parts, it's enhancements and abilities, ie, "+10 plus some". Okay, I think I've written entirely too much. Sorry, I know your eyes are tired. I look forward to everybodys' opinions. I bet Tarkin parses this all down in a wild new +1 to +5 ability breakdown which starts a 4 page debate. :eek: NeueRegel
Jaid 07-19-05, 11:40 AM	there is no RAW in 3.5 by which i meant to say, there is no RAW covering _that_ specific scenario. of course there are RAW in 3.5... they didn't change it that much =P or, in other words, RAW no change is possible. you could houserule it to be possible in two ways: 1) the way you have done... try to break down the price to it's component parts. generally, this is not the way to go, since this tends to lead to people wanting to add in those special abilities to other weapons. (often as price modifiers, not + modifiers). for example, wanting to have greatswords that can be wielded as short swords (taking 1 ability from the sun blade). now then, since you probably don't want that happening (although if your players won't abuse it, it should be ok). 2) the special weapon counts as a weapon of a certain '+' equivalent. you take whatever cost the weapon has, and comnpare it to weapon costs. you always round up (no matter how little it is over by. 33,000 GP is +5, not +4). that is the equivalent weapon '+', and the price to upgrade is the difference between the current '+' and the one they want. don't forget to remove the MW cost, and any special material costs, and the cost of the weapon itself (etc). as a variation on 2, you could have them pay as if it was the higher + weapon (ie take the difference between current cost and equivalent + cost, and that's how much they have to pay). there are probably other ways, but those are the only ones i have seen.
tarkin 07-19-05, 11:43 AM	1) First of all re-read wish. When you use it to make a magic item it costs you XP in ADDITION to the 5,000 xp. So you should never use a wish to make a magic item (unless you have so much XP you can spend it freely) If the wish is from someone else, they should give them a magic item that they have laying around, not actually use the Wish to make one. Lets ignore this fact, and just let them do it anyway. 2) RAW does not allow it. They had the chance to make the abilities +x and choose not to. They did it for a reason. In your case, the Sylvan weapon is just a couple thousand short of a +5 weapon, they certainly could have priced the effect out without too much dificulty. 3) People like these abilities and often want to do it anyway. I am one of those people. The types of House Rules fall into: A) Reasonable rules that keep the spirit of the exponential basis of magic weapons, +1 -> +5, making things "expensive". See below B) Unreasonable rules that give stuff away "cheap", usually by ignoring the exponential nature of magic weapons and instead going with + 15,000 gp, or something like that. Sorry, but weapons in the WoTC published books have NO +x,000 gp price adjustements, and they do it for a reason. Such things interact with the weapon, so the same ability on a +5 weapon is worth more on a +1 weapon, and therefore SHOULD cost more. -------- How I would price the item. The Sylvan weapon costs over 47,315 gp, that basically places it at a bit less than a +5 weapon. You want to increase the power by adding +1 to the weapon. Moving a +5 weapon to a +6 weapon costs 22,000 gp. Therefore, moving your Sylvan weapon from +3 to +4 should cost you 22,000 gp (or 11,000 gp plus some xp.) The value at the end of the day should be: 69,315 (price corrected).
Zherog 07-19-05, 11:53 AM	1) First of all re-read wish. When you use it to make a magic item it costs you XP in ADDITION to the 5,000 xp. So you should never use a wish to make a magic item (unless you have so much XP you can spend it freely) If the wish is from someone else, they should give them a magic item that they have laying around, not actually use the Wish to make one. Lets ignore this fact, and just let them do it anyway. In addition to this, note that the 3.5 version of wish does not actually place a cap on the value of magic items it can create. The cap only applies to non-magical items. The XP cost is intended to be a built-in cap, of course - but there are ways around that. Just something else to keep in mind. ;)
NeueRegel 07-19-05, 12:14 PM	Great thoughts from all contenders, so far. Thanks. Of course, now I'm in another quandary altogether. Okay, the Sylvan Scim is a +5 weapon (equiv). Works for me. Wish has no cap on the gold price, but for paying double creation XP +5000xp. Glad I reread it. Quandary: The magic pool granting the wish is paying the xp, not the player character. That could give the player as much as +5 enhancement/ability points to play with. I'm not going to tell him that. Even though I know he wouldn't abuse it. (He's been flipping between either keen or flaming; Looks like he could have both if I wanted to). Thanks guys. Neue