Additional Swift action in a round [Archive] - Wizards Community

Additional Swift action in a round [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mesiolan
01-29-08, 05:53 AM On your turn you may perform:

a full-round-action plus one swift action, plus as many free actions as the DM allows;

a standard action plus a move action plus a swift action plus free actions;

You may take move actions instead of standard actions, i.e. double move.

Are you allowed to take additional swift actions instead of move or standard actions?

I.e. the monster posseses three items, which require swift actions to activate. It activates one on its turn via swift, one with the move and one with the standard action, and takes a five-foot step.

Is this possible?
Kouk
01-29-08, 05:57 AM Anything is possible with house rules :P

If you want to allow a Swift to be in place of another kind of action, I would go with saying a Swift Action can be taken in place of a Standard Action, but not a Move Action.

If you allow it in place of a Move Action, then a caster could let off 3 spells in a round (1 Swift or Quickened, one normal, and another Swift or Quickened). Also, Swift Actions in general are more "powerful" than Move Actions.
RavenDrake
01-29-08, 06:40 AM I think that, as a houserule, I'd allow you use a standard action to perform a swift action maneuver, but that you still can't cast more than one spell in the same round. Wizards made changes specfically to address the nature of multiple spells per turn, and they(and everyone else, pretty much) agree that the potential for abuse is too great.
Orenmir
01-29-08, 10:16 AM By RAW -- only one swift action per round. I think it is a very dangerous and unbalanced houserule to allow a second swift action. Casters are already powerful enough in D&D. Why give them a chance to spit out more spells per round? Same could be said for manifesters and martial adepts. Suddenly all these classes are way too powerful, especially at higher levels.
Stardust
01-29-08, 12:24 PM This is one of those cases where unfortunately you have to favour balance over plausability. As the others have said, you'd be looking at the possibility of a caster firing off up to 3 spells per round. There's some pretty nifty swift-actions spells around there, as well as items with a whole variety of effects.

Whilst it does 'make sense' to be able to use a fast action in place of a slower one, the nature of the action in question makes it really quite a bad idea in practice. I would recommend against it for the purposes of maintaining (some semblance of) game balance.
CryoSilver
01-29-08, 12:32 PM It'd be fantastic formy warblade to be able to use a Boost, Counter and Strike all in one round, but terribly unbalanced.
jaelis
01-29-08, 12:34 PM I've yet to see an example, though, where there is a problem replacing a standard action with a swift action. I think that's a pretty reasonable houserule.
CryoSilver
01-29-08, 12:38 PM Depends on the build; my warblade uses a lot of boosts and counters, and gets most of his attacks from Combat Reflexes, so it'd be a substantial boost in power for me if I could use two boosts, or two counters.
Old_Troll
01-29-08, 01:00 PM There is an epic level feat that allows a character to gain an additional swift action in a round. There are more than one threads discussing how to put limitations on this feat, even at epic level. Just imagine a caster that took the feat, say...4 times (and boosted his initiative up to, oh, +15 to +20. Many fights would be over in the first round. Which isn't to say that a quickly defeated foe isn't good, but rather it should come about due to clever uses of information, planning and resources.
Cifer
01-29-08, 02:16 PM However, if Star Wars Saga is any judge, 4th edition will do it just the way you said - there, you've got a Standard, a Move and a Swift action and are able to "downgrade" all of those into the faster ones.
jaelis
01-29-08, 02:38 PM Depends on the build; my warblade uses a lot of boosts and counters, and gets most of his attacks from Combat Reflexes, so it'd be a substantial boost in power for me if I could use two boosts, or two counters.

I'm surprised to hear that... I thought that for the most part, strikes were stronger than boosts and counters.
Cifer
01-29-08, 03:32 PM I'm surprised to hear that... I thought that for the most part, strikes were stronger than boosts and counters.
I really doubt one can compare those two since they're used with different actions and for different situations.
CryoSilver
01-29-08, 03:42 PM Often they are, but I currently get 4 AoOs every round, and if I can increase their power with boosts and counters, it's like getting a full attack but with everything at my best to-hit, plus I use Shock Trooper (and Leap Attack once I get to level 9) and I do keep one or two strikes readied, but mostly for the side effects (Stone Bones is great for Karmic Strike users).
jaelis
01-29-08, 04:12 PM I see then. Fair enough.
Lyndis
01-29-08, 08:52 PM If someone wishes to take multiple actions a round, then that peson must be a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
jaelis
01-30-08, 12:39 AM Often they are, but I currently get 4 AoOs every round, and if I can increase their power with boosts and counters, it's like getting a full attack but with everything at my best to-hit, plus I use Shock Trooper (and Leap Attack once I get to level 9) and I do keep one or two strikes readied, but mostly for the side effects (Stone Bones is great for Karmic Strike users).

Actually, how do you generate all those AoOs during your turn, anyway?
CryoSilver
01-30-08, 12:55 AM Karmic Strike, mostly; if I get hit, I get to hit back.
jaelis
01-30-08, 03:27 AM But that would happen during your opponent's turn, so your boosts wouldn't count anyway?
CryoSilver
01-30-08, 03:07 PM Counters would, though. And the boosts are good for when I charge, or use full attacks; because I have a high to-hit, I'm usually better off using boosts than strikes, unless I need something from one (like DR from Stone Bones)
jaelis
01-30-08, 05:10 PM I guess I'm still not seeing where replacing a std action with a swift action would be all that great. Since you can only use a boost during your turn, it doesn't do you any good to sacrifice your std action for a boost, since you wouldn't be able to use it. (Unless you did have a way to trigger AoOs during your turn somehow.)

Similarly, counters mostly don't happen during your turn either, and I wouldn't propose to give you more than one immediate action... I'm not sure how that would work.

So unless you did have a way to generate AoOs during your turn, I'd still argue that you wouldn't generally come out ahead by taking a swift action in place of your std action.
Meep222
01-30-08, 05:36 PM There's belt of battle which lets you get aditional actions (although it requires a swift action to activate), and an epic feat that specifically allows the use of multiple quickened spells a round.
Meep222
01-30-08, 08:55 PM Also, as i just thought of it, Swift actions count as quickened spells, and as stated in the quickened spell decription, you can only cast one quickened spell a round, so even with two swift actions a round, you could not cast an additional spell. Certain circumstances exist where this is circumvented. (Thrall of Demogorgon is the prime one in my mind, two minds, two full rounds worth of actions a round, as well as that bird-monster thing in Feind Folio, two full rounds of actions in one.
Cifer
01-31-08, 07:57 PM Also, as i just thought of it, Swift actions count as quickened spells, and as stated in the quickened spell decription, you can only cast one quickened spell a round, so even with two swift actions a round, you could not cast an additional spell.
That's not quite correct. The "can only cast one quickened spell" paragraph is an artifact from the time where it took a free action (which didn't have a built-in limit). With swift actions, it's already clear that one can't quicken two spells under normal circumstances.
Meep222
02-01-08, 02:17 PM Except when you take into account there's the feat in ELH which specifically allows you to cast multiple quickened spells a round, thus requiring multiple swift actions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mesiolan 01-29-08, 05:53 AM	On your turn you may perform: a full-round-action plus one swift action, plus as many free actions as the DM allows; a standard action plus a move action plus a swift action plus free actions; You may take move actions instead of standard actions, i.e. double move. Are you allowed to take additional swift actions instead of move or standard actions? I.e. the monster posseses three items, which require swift actions to activate. It activates one on its turn via swift, one with the move and one with the standard action, and takes a five-foot step. Is this possible?
Kouk 01-29-08, 05:57 AM	Anything is possible with house rules :P If you want to allow a Swift to be in place of another kind of action, I would go with saying a Swift Action can be taken in place of a Standard Action, but not a Move Action. If you allow it in place of a Move Action, then a caster could let off 3 spells in a round (1 Swift or Quickened, one normal, and another Swift or Quickened). Also, Swift Actions in general are more "powerful" than Move Actions.
RavenDrake 01-29-08, 06:40 AM	I think that, as a houserule, I'd allow you use a standard action to perform a swift action maneuver, but that you still can't cast more than one spell in the same round. Wizards made changes specfically to address the nature of multiple spells per turn, and they(and everyone else, pretty much) agree that the potential for abuse is too great.
Orenmir 01-29-08, 10:16 AM	By RAW -- only one swift action per round. I think it is a very dangerous and unbalanced houserule to allow a second swift action. Casters are already powerful enough in D&D. Why give them a chance to spit out more spells per round? Same could be said for manifesters and martial adepts. Suddenly all these classes are way too powerful, especially at higher levels.
Stardust 01-29-08, 12:24 PM	This is one of those cases where unfortunately you have to favour balance over plausability. As the others have said, you'd be looking at the possibility of a caster firing off up to 3 spells per round. There's some pretty nifty swift-actions spells around there, as well as items with a whole variety of effects. Whilst it does 'make sense' to be able to use a fast action in place of a slower one, the nature of the action in question makes it really quite a bad idea in practice. I would recommend against it for the purposes of maintaining (some semblance of) game balance.
CryoSilver 01-29-08, 12:32 PM	It'd be fantastic formy warblade to be able to use a Boost, Counter and Strike all in one round, but terribly unbalanced.
jaelis 01-29-08, 12:34 PM	I've yet to see an example, though, where there is a problem replacing a standard action with a swift action. I think that's a pretty reasonable houserule.
CryoSilver 01-29-08, 12:38 PM	Depends on the build; my warblade uses a lot of boosts and counters, and gets most of his attacks from Combat Reflexes, so it'd be a substantial boost in power for me if I could use two boosts, or two counters.
Old_Troll 01-29-08, 01:00 PM	There is an epic level feat that allows a character to gain an additional swift action in a round. There are more than one threads discussing how to put limitations on this feat, even at epic level. Just imagine a caster that took the feat, say...4 times (and boosted his initiative up to, oh, +15 to +20. Many fights would be over in the first round. Which isn't to say that a quickly defeated foe isn't good, but rather it should come about due to clever uses of information, planning and resources.
Cifer 01-29-08, 02:16 PM	However, if Star Wars Saga is any judge, 4th edition will do it just the way you said - there, you've got a Standard, a Move and a Swift action and are able to "downgrade" all of those into the faster ones.
jaelis 01-29-08, 02:38 PM	Depends on the build; my warblade uses a lot of boosts and counters, and gets most of his attacks from Combat Reflexes, so it'd be a substantial boost in power for me if I could use two boosts, or two counters. I'm surprised to hear that... I thought that for the most part, strikes were stronger than boosts and counters.
Cifer 01-29-08, 03:32 PM	I'm surprised to hear that... I thought that for the most part, strikes were stronger than boosts and counters. I really doubt one can compare those two since they're used with different actions and for different situations.
CryoSilver 01-29-08, 03:42 PM	Often they are, but I currently get 4 AoOs every round, and if I can increase their power with boosts and counters, it's like getting a full attack but with everything at my best to-hit, plus I use Shock Trooper (and Leap Attack once I get to level 9) and I do keep one or two strikes readied, but mostly for the side effects (Stone Bones is great for Karmic Strike users).
jaelis 01-29-08, 04:12 PM	I see then. Fair enough.
Lyndis 01-29-08, 08:52 PM	If someone wishes to take multiple actions a round, then that peson must be a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
jaelis 01-30-08, 12:39 AM	Often they are, but I currently get 4 AoOs every round, and if I can increase their power with boosts and counters, it's like getting a full attack but with everything at my best to-hit, plus I use Shock Trooper (and Leap Attack once I get to level 9) and I do keep one or two strikes readied, but mostly for the side effects (Stone Bones is great for Karmic Strike users). Actually, how do you generate all those AoOs during your turn, anyway?
CryoSilver 01-30-08, 12:55 AM	Karmic Strike, mostly; if I get hit, I get to hit back.
jaelis 01-30-08, 03:27 AM	But that would happen during your opponent's turn, so your boosts wouldn't count anyway?
CryoSilver 01-30-08, 03:07 PM	Counters would, though. And the boosts are good for when I charge, or use full attacks; because I have a high to-hit, I'm usually better off using boosts than strikes, unless I need something from one (like DR from Stone Bones)
jaelis 01-30-08, 05:10 PM	I guess I'm still not seeing where replacing a std action with a swift action would be all that great. Since you can only use a boost during your turn, it doesn't do you any good to sacrifice your std action for a boost, since you wouldn't be able to use it. (Unless you did have a way to trigger AoOs during your turn somehow.) Similarly, counters mostly don't happen during your turn either, and I wouldn't propose to give you more than one immediate action... I'm not sure how that would work. So unless you did have a way to generate AoOs during your turn, I'd still argue that you wouldn't generally come out ahead by taking a swift action in place of your std action.
Meep222 01-30-08, 05:36 PM	There's belt of battle which lets you get aditional actions (although it requires a swift action to activate), and an epic feat that specifically allows the use of multiple quickened spells a round.
Meep222 01-30-08, 08:55 PM	Also, as i just thought of it, Swift actions count as quickened spells, and as stated in the quickened spell decription, you can only cast one quickened spell a round, so even with two swift actions a round, you could not cast an additional spell. Certain circumstances exist where this is circumvented. (Thrall of Demogorgon is the prime one in my mind, two minds, two full rounds worth of actions a round, as well as that bird-monster thing in Feind Folio, two full rounds of actions in one.
Cifer 01-31-08, 07:57 PM	Also, as i just thought of it, Swift actions count as quickened spells, and as stated in the quickened spell decription, you can only cast one quickened spell a round, so even with two swift actions a round, you could not cast an additional spell. That's not quite correct. The "can only cast one quickened spell" paragraph is an artifact from the time where it took a free action (which didn't have a built-in limit). With swift actions, it's already clear that one can't quicken two spells under normal circumstances.
Meep222 02-01-08, 02:17 PM	Except when you take into account there's the feat in ELH which specifically allows you to cast multiple quickened spells a round, thus requiring multiple swift actions.