Advantage and disadvantage of reach weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advantage and disadvantage of reach weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rondulin
03-25-05, 02:25 PM With my new character (Barbarian/Fighter) I'm planning to specialize on a reach weapon. The advantages are obvious (good damage, AoO when someone wants to attack you), but are there also disadvantages that I am not aware of?
Beamup
03-25-05, 02:34 PM Mainly the fact that (barring the Spiked Chain and similar) you can't attack people next to you. This means you (a) have to keep making 5' steps, which can be a major problem in confined areas and (b) can greatly limit your responses. For example, if somebody tries to grapple you, you can't take the AoO in general, because you don't threaten.

Anyone specializing in a reach weapon would be well served to buy some Armor Spikes or something similar, so that they have something to attack with at 5'.
Tony Vargas
03-25-05, 04:45 PM Another thing you have to consider is cover. The 3.5 rules for 'soft cover' from other characters seemingly result in penalties whenever there's anyone else besides you and the target, anywhere on the battlefield. :rolleyes: I'm exagerating, but, I do find that positions (relative to my buddies) from which I could formerly (3.0) hit an enemy with no problem now give the enemy cover. And, unlike archery, there's no 'Improved Precise Reach' or anything to negate those penalties...
Nom
03-25-05, 06:03 PM Our party's favourite trick was a Rog/Sor flanking with a longspear. All the good stuff but without being threatened, unless the critter made a 5 ft. step. The flanking part avoids the cover problems.

Your main reach drawbacks are slightly lower damage and when bad guys step closer to avoid an AoO!
Thorak
03-26-05, 12:53 AM There are three things that make reach weapons truly sick. These are Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip (with a tripping Reach weapon, obviously).

Spring attack is gorgeous, because it means two things;
1> If nobody is near to you, you can move, whack someone, and retreat again. They have to go through your ring-o-death to reach you, provoking an AoO. Keep this up, and you get 2 attacks to every 1 of the enemy's.

2> If someone is near to you, you can retreat 5', attack, and then keep moving, getting away without provoking an AoO and attacking in the process.

Either way, spring attack means getting far enough away from the enemy every round that they're only going to get 1 attack (barring something like pounce, of course)

Improved Trip just makes this sick. When you get an AoO, Trip them. You get a free extra attack if you succeed, and they have to get up. You can Trip them as they try to run up to you, and then if they have another move action left, they can stand up, provoking another AoO. That's 2 free hits you've gotten, and they get none. If they don't have another action, you can (if you haven't gone yet) unload a full attack and 5' step back afterwards, or (if you have gone yet) if you win initiative, do the same, and if you don't, get an AoO as they stand up, and then they get to 5' step in and make one attack.

The only way this works out poorly is if you went first this round, and they win initative next round, because they can then 5' step in and make a full attack. Otherwise, you can Spring attack back before they do so, having now made 3 attacks without being threatened. And, barring initiative mods, that worst case is a 1 in 4 chance, generally.

Combat reflexes, obviously, is needed because you're making bunches of AoOs.

The only poor part of this is that it requires a good Dex (13+ for Spring Attack, better to have more for more AoOs) and a good Str (to Trip with and deal damage). Dex doesn't need to be huge, though, with a little magical help, and you probably won't get past needing to make 3-4 AoOs in a single round, even with multiple opponents, and you can get that many with a 14-16 Dex.
Makabriel
03-26-05, 11:29 AM 2> If someone is near to you, you can retreat 5', attack, and then keep moving, getting away without provoking an AoO and attacking in the process.

If you make a 5' step, you cannot make any other movement actions

From the SRD:

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.
Rondulin
03-26-05, 11:59 AM No real disadvantages so far. That's great.
Reach weapon + armor spikes = threaten 24 squares. :D Wow
J_Riley
03-26-05, 03:32 PM If you make a 5' step, you cannot make any other movement actions

He's not taking a 5' step, he's moving part of his movement which happens to be 5', attacking, then moving the rest of his movement, which is precisely what spring attack allows.
J_Riley
03-26-05, 03:36 PM I always figured since you'd have a high STR, a spiked gauntlet wouldn't be too bad a close range weapon. When you need it, you take your hand off your Guisarme and clock someone, then put it back on the reach weapon
K_Man
03-26-05, 04:13 PM All my martial guys have a Spike Guantlet. There is no real reason not to. Granted, none of my guys have routinely used a reach weapon, but, for those times when you have your bow out, and need to melee, it is priceless, or when disarmed, or grappled, or whatever.

It isn't as nice as a dagger, but not having to draw it is real nice.
Soepkommetje
03-26-05, 07:22 PM He's not taking a 5' step, he's moving part of his movement which happens to be 5', attacking, then moving the rest of his movement, which is precisely what spring attack allows.

But that 5' of movement provokes an AoO, because it is not a 5-foot step (as per the rules)
Kemanmaldea
03-26-05, 07:44 PM From SRD under spring attack

Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate.

So as long as no one beside the person who you are attacking theatens the square you just left the 5' movement attack keep moving pattern works and you are not subject to AoOs
Thorak
03-28-05, 06:56 AM Thank you J_Riley and Kemanmaldea for pointing out what I thought was clear.

The 5' move isn't a 5' step, it's the first 5' in the Move action you'll be taking, the portion before the Spring Attack's attack.

And Spring Attack nullifies all movement-related AoOs from the target (when using the feat, meaning moving before and after the attack). Only the target, true, but I assumed there was just the one target for this.

That's how Spring Attack works. Considering I was describing why Spring Attack is gorgeous, you guys should at least have looked up Spring Attack before trying to "correct" me.
Rulebook
03-28-05, 12:32 PM ive got a fighter/monk im using as my reach weapon expiriment character, and its working quite nicely, but i think im going to switch im back to a fighter. i need those spring attack tree feats very quickly (ive been cast as a major fighter, despite having less HP than our fighter and druid. I have 10 more HP than the Bard for gods sake.)
Frozen Yakman
03-28-05, 12:36 PM Reach weapons also tend to be made mostly of wood except for the damaging end so they are more vulnerable to sunder attempts then normal weapons.

A Spring Attacking Reach guy can be countered by reading an action to take a 5ft step and attack (trip/disarm/sunder) so the tactic while very good is not completely infallible.
tarkin
03-28-05, 01:18 PM The readying an action trick has it's flaws.

One of them is simply obtaining reach of 20ft or more. Easily done by drinking a potion of Enlarge, getting polymorphed to a Large creature, or simply starting out as a Large (tall) creature.

Moreover, as the increased reach is SO powerfull (20ft reach mean you can take AoO's on almost everyone in a 45 x 45 ft room if you stand in the center, one of the FIRST things reach fighters try to do is get that extra reach.

That still leaves a readied disarm/sunder attack on the weapon, but again being Large, using a Two handed weapon makes Disarm dificult. That leaves Sunder.

So the smart Reach attacker gets an adamantine weapon, along with some means of being/becoming large.
Eldariel
03-28-05, 01:39 PM Reach weapons also tend to be made mostly of wood except for the damaging end so they are more vulnerable to sunder attempts then normal weapons.

A Spring Attacking Reach guy can be countered by reading an action to take a 5ft step and attack (trip/disarm/sunder) so the tactic while very good is not completely infallible.

Don't forget about basic tumble, ranged attacks, reach opponents, caster or invisible/tele-moving opponents.

The whole deal is kind of like the Ranged AoOs feat, allowing to make attacks of opportunity within 15 feets. It's insane, especially when coupled with Ranged Trip feat (obviously). I do think they don't exist in 3.5 though, for which I'm very thankful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rondulin 03-25-05, 02:25 PM	With my new character (Barbarian/Fighter) I'm planning to specialize on a reach weapon. The advantages are obvious (good damage, AoO when someone wants to attack you), but are there also disadvantages that I am not aware of?
Beamup 03-25-05, 02:34 PM	Mainly the fact that (barring the Spiked Chain and similar) you can't attack people next to you. This means you (a) have to keep making 5' steps, which can be a major problem in confined areas and (b) can greatly limit your responses. For example, if somebody tries to grapple you, you can't take the AoO in general, because you don't threaten. Anyone specializing in a reach weapon would be well served to buy some Armor Spikes or something similar, so that they have something to attack with at 5'.
Tony Vargas 03-25-05, 04:45 PM	Another thing you have to consider is cover. The 3.5 rules for 'soft cover' from other characters seemingly result in penalties whenever there's anyone else besides you and the target, anywhere on the battlefield. :rolleyes: I'm exagerating, but, I do find that positions (relative to my buddies) from which I could formerly (3.0) hit an enemy with no problem now give the enemy cover. And, unlike archery, there's no 'Improved Precise Reach' or anything to negate those penalties...
Nom 03-25-05, 06:03 PM	Our party's favourite trick was a Rog/Sor flanking with a longspear. All the good stuff but without being threatened, unless the critter made a 5 ft. step. The flanking part avoids the cover problems. Your main reach drawbacks are slightly lower damage and when bad guys step closer to avoid an AoO!
Thorak 03-26-05, 12:53 AM	There are three things that make reach weapons truly sick. These are Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip (with a tripping Reach weapon, obviously). Spring attack is gorgeous, because it means two things; 1> If nobody is near to you, you can move, whack someone, and retreat again. They have to go through your ring-o-death to reach you, provoking an AoO. Keep this up, and you get 2 attacks to every 1 of the enemy's. 2> If someone is near to you, you can retreat 5', attack, and then keep moving, getting away without provoking an AoO and attacking in the process. Either way, spring attack means getting far enough away from the enemy every round that they're only going to get 1 attack (barring something like pounce, of course) Improved Trip just makes this sick. When you get an AoO, Trip them. You get a free extra attack if you succeed, and they have to get up. You can Trip them as they try to run up to you, and then if they have another move action left, they can stand up, provoking another AoO. That's 2 free hits you've gotten, and they get none. If they don't have another action, you can (if you haven't gone yet) unload a full attack and 5' step back afterwards, or (if you have gone yet) if you win initiative, do the same, and if you don't, get an AoO as they stand up, and then they get to 5' step in and make one attack. The only way this works out poorly is if you went first this round, and they win initative next round, because they can then 5' step in and make a full attack. Otherwise, you can Spring attack back before they do so, having now made 3 attacks without being threatened. And, barring initiative mods, that worst case is a 1 in 4 chance, generally. Combat reflexes, obviously, is needed because you're making bunches of AoOs. The only poor part of this is that it requires a good Dex (13+ for Spring Attack, better to have more for more AoOs) and a good Str (to Trip with and deal damage). Dex doesn't need to be huge, though, with a little magical help, and you probably won't get past needing to make 3-4 AoOs in a single round, even with multiple opponents, and you can get that many with a 14-16 Dex.
Makabriel 03-26-05, 11:29 AM	2> If someone is near to you, you can retreat 5', attack, and then keep moving, getting away without provoking an AoO and attacking in the process. If you make a 5' step, you cannot make any other movement actions From the SRD: Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.
Rondulin 03-26-05, 11:59 AM	No real disadvantages so far. That's great. Reach weapon + armor spikes = threaten 24 squares. :D Wow
J_Riley 03-26-05, 03:32 PM	If you make a 5' step, you cannot make any other movement actions He's not taking a 5' step, he's moving part of his movement which happens to be 5', attacking, then moving the rest of his movement, which is precisely what spring attack allows.
J_Riley 03-26-05, 03:36 PM	I always figured since you'd have a high STR, a spiked gauntlet wouldn't be too bad a close range weapon. When you need it, you take your hand off your Guisarme and clock someone, then put it back on the reach weapon
K_Man 03-26-05, 04:13 PM	All my martial guys have a Spike Guantlet. There is no real reason not to. Granted, none of my guys have routinely used a reach weapon, but, for those times when you have your bow out, and need to melee, it is priceless, or when disarmed, or grappled, or whatever. It isn't as nice as a dagger, but not having to draw it is real nice.
Soepkommetje 03-26-05, 07:22 PM	He's not taking a 5' step, he's moving part of his movement which happens to be 5', attacking, then moving the rest of his movement, which is precisely what spring attack allows. But that 5' of movement provokes an AoO, because it is not a 5-foot step (as per the rules)
Kemanmaldea 03-26-05, 07:44 PM	From SRD under spring attack Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. So as long as no one beside the person who you are attacking theatens the square you just left the 5' movement attack keep moving pattern works and you are not subject to AoOs
Thorak 03-28-05, 06:56 AM	Thank you J_Riley and Kemanmaldea for pointing out what I thought was clear. The 5' move isn't a 5' step, it's the first 5' in the Move action you'll be taking, the portion before the Spring Attack's attack. And Spring Attack nullifies all movement-related AoOs from the target (when using the feat, meaning moving before and after the attack). Only the target, true, but I assumed there was just the one target for this. That's how Spring Attack works. Considering I was describing why Spring Attack is gorgeous, you guys should at least have looked up Spring Attack before trying to "correct" me.
Rulebook 03-28-05, 12:32 PM	ive got a fighter/monk im using as my reach weapon expiriment character, and its working quite nicely, but i think im going to switch im back to a fighter. i need those spring attack tree feats very quickly (ive been cast as a major fighter, despite having less HP than our fighter and druid. I have 10 more HP than the Bard for gods sake.)
Frozen Yakman 03-28-05, 12:36 PM	Reach weapons also tend to be made mostly of wood except for the damaging end so they are more vulnerable to sunder attempts then normal weapons. A Spring Attacking Reach guy can be countered by reading an action to take a 5ft step and attack (trip/disarm/sunder) so the tactic while very good is not completely infallible.
tarkin 03-28-05, 01:18 PM	The readying an action trick has it's flaws. One of them is simply obtaining reach of 20ft or more. Easily done by drinking a potion of Enlarge, getting polymorphed to a Large creature, or simply starting out as a Large (tall) creature. Moreover, as the increased reach is SO powerfull (20ft reach mean you can take AoO's on almost everyone in a 45 x 45 ft room if you stand in the center, one of the FIRST things reach fighters try to do is get that extra reach. That still leaves a readied disarm/sunder attack on the weapon, but again being Large, using a Two handed weapon makes Disarm dificult. That leaves Sunder. So the smart Reach attacker gets an adamantine weapon, along with some means of being/becoming large.
Eldariel 03-28-05, 01:39 PM	Reach weapons also tend to be made mostly of wood except for the damaging end so they are more vulnerable to sunder attempts then normal weapons. A Spring Attacking Reach guy can be countered by reading an action to take a 5ft step and attack (trip/disarm/sunder) so the tactic while very good is not completely infallible. Don't forget about basic tumble, ranged attacks, reach opponents, caster or invisible/tele-moving opponents. The whole deal is kind of like the Ranged AoOs feat, allowing to make attacks of opportunity within 15 feets. It's insane, especially when coupled with Ranged Trip feat (obviously). I do think they don't exist in 3.5 though, for which I'm very thankful.