Advice on killing a Black Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice on killing a Black Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Von Helmet
10-14-04, 09:41 AM I'm a newbie here. I would like some advice please. We are all low level at the moment, averaging 3rd level(almost 4th). My D&D group will soon be fighting a Black Dragon (adult, L). He has an army of goblins & hobgoblins as followers. They war with each other thought and neither know he is pitting them against each other. My group consists of a barbarian 4th, a fighter 3rd, a bard 3rd, a rouge 3rd, 2 clerics 3rd & 4th, a ranger 3rd almost 4th (black dragon is his mortal enemy), & a sorcerer/fighter 4th/3rd. We have plenty of gold to purchase what we need and are trying to raise an army to help. We were going to get some more poison & more experience too before we tackle this dragon. I was thinking of finding his lair & setting a trap for him there so he won't be able to fly. That way it will be a close combat fight, making the fighters of the group useful. I was thinking also to start out using our bows with poisined arrows to help first & having the group spread out so he can't attack us all at once. Any thoughts? Suggestions???
Quartermain
10-14-04, 09:51 AM You seem pretty low level for a CR 9 creature, first of all...

And if you really ARE going to fight it, I'd worry about it submerging. Actually, I'd worry about it grappling a group member and submerging.
Von Helmet
10-14-04, 10:04 AM You seem pretty low level for a CR 9 creature, first of all...

And if you really ARE going to fight it, I'd worry about it submerging. Actually, I'd worry about it grappling a group member and submerging.

What would be the ideal level for our characters to combat a black dragon? BTW, what does CR 9 stand for?
ikki
10-14-04, 10:15 AM CR 9 means it is meant for 4 9th level adventurers as a good encounter. Use up to +3 at your own risk of wiping ouit the party.

ie +4 would mean 4 6th level.
Otoh you have 8 adventurers, including a 7th level one. So it just might pass as a extremely hard encounter..... like losing atleast 5 of those.

Also does any of the "fighters", have the ability to hit the dragon at anything less than rolling 20?
Wizzies/sorcers.. any spells do deal 30% of the dragons hp in 3 rounds?

Low levels isnt always bad but at 6 below cr, even when many, there is a very good chance they wont be able to deal any damage and still die... especially since they are still at so low levels.

Also worth thinking about: dragons are at purpose at an all too low cr to make the battles seem more heroic.
ksbsnowowl
10-14-04, 10:19 AM My group consists of a barbarian 4th, a fighter 3rd, a bard 3rd, a rouge 3rd, 2 clerics 3rd & 4th, a ranger 3rd, & a sorcerer/fighter 4th/3rd.Why is there a 7th level character in your 3rd level party? You do know that the Experience Point system is different than 2nd edition, right? You do not track XP for each individual class, you track it for the entire character. A character with 4 levels in Sorcerer and 3 levels in fighter is a 7th level character, and is theoretically on the same power level as a straight 7th level fighter, or a 7th level wizard, etc.

What would be the ideal level for our characters to combat a black dragon? BTW, what does CR 9 stand for?CR stands for Challenge Rating. All creatures in the Monster Manual have a CR, which tells the DM at what character level the monster is appropriate to pit against a party.

In the case of an adult black dragon, which has a CR of 9, it is an appropriate challenge for a party of four 9th level characters. Due to the fact that your party consists of 8 characters, you could probably do well if you were all 7th level. As 3rd and 4th level characters, many (if not all) of you will probably die.

Your DM needs to reread the sections in the PHB on Multiclassing, and in the DMG about XP and the CR system.
Von Helmet
10-14-04, 10:26 AM Well with the fighters, I know the barbarian will get a +11 attack bonus when he goes into his rage & will be able to do that twice a day. That will also add a +8 damage to his attacks. The ranger gets a +2 on attacking a dragon plus his +7 attack bonus. The other fighter gets +6 attack bonus. Not sure about the spells, none of the spellcating characters are mine(barbarian is my character). Guess we should wait to go up a couple more levels before we try and kill the beast. Eventuall it will need to be done. Guess we can thin out the goblin & hobgoblins first. Thanks for the advice!
Phrennzy
10-14-04, 10:36 AM Since you know it is black, get acid protection/resistance spells and items cast or used on everyone before entering it's lair.

Use as much clairvoyance as you can to scout out the lair.

Attacking it now with the group you have would be suicide. It will kill half the group and the other half may be able to run.

Everyone should be packing a ranged weapon. It's gonna fly.
Everyone should have some sort of water breathing spell/item. It's gonna swim.

When the big fight comes, don't play lightly. No lame spells from the casters. Bring out the big guns early and often. Now is not the time for ray of frost (unless it's a rogue using it to sneak attack.)

The fighters need to flank it so the rogue can sneak attack.

Clerics should remain mobile to offer healing to the fighters.

You'll need more levels under your belt for sure.
Sounds like fun though, knowing far in advance that you'll have to fight something awful.
Bane
10-14-04, 11:39 AM My suggestion? Wait a few levels until you can cast fly on the entire party, and still have fireballs. When the barbarian is as mobile as the dragon, the encounter should get a lot easier.

My good suggestion? Leave town. Forget about the dragon, he will crush you. Played correctly, I have seen a single Old Dragon TPK an 18th level party. There is nothing worse than an intelligent DM pitting you up against an intelligent and deadly opponent.
KangTheCallipygian
10-14-04, 12:12 PM The fighters need to flank it so the rogue can sneak attack.Nitpick for self-described newbie Von Helmet's benefit: The rogue must be one of the flankers in order to sneak attack. Maybe that's what Phrennzy meant, but it looks like that sentence is saying that a flanked creature is suscpetible to sneak attacks from non-flanking rogues, which is not the case. ie. If a rogue and a fighter flank it, the rogue can sneak attack. But if 2 fighters flank it, the rogue can't sneak attack unless she and someone else are also flanking it, or the dragon is denied its dex bonus to AC for some reason.
From the SRD:
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. ...ie. not "when the rogue's target is flanked"...

Kang
ElvenEnigma
10-14-04, 05:51 PM Black dragons are mean...like everyone else has said I agree with waiting awhile before you try to tackle him. At least till you're level 8. Also, when the time has come to fight him be prepared, and have a detailed plan of action that will try to limit the battlefield to your advantage. Just remember to get the job done. It' s never good to have a dragon with a grudge against you, heh. But yeah, research this particular dragon, I'm sure there is more to him than just bossing little creatures around. You could always try luring him into a prepared ambush, or even be sneakier and set up an ambush with some good aligned dragons. So that when he goes to the place he instead finds himself cornered with other dragons, either chromatic or metallic. Metallic won't like him due to his evil nature, while the chromatic ones will probably want his loot. Just a thought, oh, and resist energy is a must.
DragonsArt
10-14-04, 05:58 PM You are dead. Just use the money to run buy tombstones.

With an adult dragon, I really don't care what you did... I'd kill you at that level.

The feat effect alone will cause most of your party to be panicked. He has DR, spells... darkness... multiple attacks. Plus, if he uses the stuff in his hoard... potions, wands, scrolls, etc.... best not to think about it.

If the DM has access to the Draconium... with dragon feats... TOAST.

Nope... if the DM plays him anywhere near his intelligence, you are dead.

I have a party of 6th level characters that were considering going against a young adult dragon and I was afraid it would be a total party kill.

I nearly killed them with a (M) juvenille dragon when they were at your level.
CaineTheInsaine
10-15-04, 03:45 AM I got to go with Dragon's Art here.. Lets look at the Barbarian, average hitoints given a 16 con.. 36 hps, The dragon is capable od doing more then that with one use of its breath weapon. An average of 32hp of damage with a full attack action, average of 24 hp damage with its breath weapon. If it has the shape breath weapon feat from Dragonomicron then ti can hit the whole party one shot. Average of 199 hps for the dragon, BAB +19, its gonan hit eveyr time. +29 grapple checks? Your insaine to try to take it on this early.

But if you have to? Prep for acid, but also prep for at least one other energy type. We got a 3rd level Caster level, probally at least one or two spells with a diffrent energy type. Prepare to take cover from a flying dragon, so have ranged weapons. Try to stay awya from deep bodies of water. With the grapple check you can expect some snatch and grab attacks. Also look for possible defenses against fear effects. You don't want half the party running away if the creature roars, especially the low Will save fighters and abrbarians. If all that is left behind is your wizards and clerics.. you need to concentrate fire. If the fight includes minions, ignore them. The dragon is the target to fear the most. Goblins and hobgoblins who see their god thing slain will likly run away. Also.. be creative, set traps of your own. Scout and plan. Try using his goblins and hobgoblins against him.

Thats my opinion.. run, run far, run fast, and don't look back. but if you do.. you only have to out think your DM.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Von Helmet 10-14-04, 09:41 AM	I'm a newbie here. I would like some advice please. We are all low level at the moment, averaging 3rd level(almost 4th). My D&D group will soon be fighting a Black Dragon (adult, L). He has an army of goblins & hobgoblins as followers. They war with each other thought and neither know he is pitting them against each other. My group consists of a barbarian 4th, a fighter 3rd, a bard 3rd, a rouge 3rd, 2 clerics 3rd & 4th, a ranger 3rd almost 4th (black dragon is his mortal enemy), & a sorcerer/fighter 4th/3rd. We have plenty of gold to purchase what we need and are trying to raise an army to help. We were going to get some more poison & more experience too before we tackle this dragon. I was thinking of finding his lair & setting a trap for him there so he won't be able to fly. That way it will be a close combat fight, making the fighters of the group useful. I was thinking also to start out using our bows with poisined arrows to help first & having the group spread out so he can't attack us all at once. Any thoughts? Suggestions???
Quartermain 10-14-04, 09:51 AM	You seem pretty low level for a CR 9 creature, first of all... And if you really ARE going to fight it, I'd worry about it submerging. Actually, I'd worry about it grappling a group member and submerging.
Von Helmet 10-14-04, 10:04 AM	You seem pretty low level for a CR 9 creature, first of all... And if you really ARE going to fight it, I'd worry about it submerging. Actually, I'd worry about it grappling a group member and submerging. What would be the ideal level for our characters to combat a black dragon? BTW, what does CR 9 stand for?
ikki 10-14-04, 10:15 AM	CR 9 means it is meant for 4 9th level adventurers as a good encounter. Use up to +3 at your own risk of wiping ouit the party. ie +4 would mean 4 6th level. Otoh you have 8 adventurers, including a 7th level one. So it just might pass as a extremely hard encounter..... like losing atleast 5 of those. Also does any of the "fighters", have the ability to hit the dragon at anything less than rolling 20? Wizzies/sorcers.. any spells do deal 30% of the dragons hp in 3 rounds? Low levels isnt always bad but at 6 below cr, even when many, there is a very good chance they wont be able to deal any damage and still die... especially since they are still at so low levels. Also worth thinking about: dragons are at purpose at an all too low cr to make the battles seem more heroic.
ksbsnowowl 10-14-04, 10:19 AM	My group consists of a barbarian 4th, a fighter 3rd, a bard 3rd, a rouge 3rd, 2 clerics 3rd & 4th, a ranger 3rd, & a sorcerer/fighter 4th/3rd.Why is there a 7th level character in your 3rd level party? You do know that the Experience Point system is different than 2nd edition, right? You do not track XP for each individual class, you track it for the entire character. A character with 4 levels in Sorcerer and 3 levels in fighter is a 7th level character, and is theoretically on the same power level as a straight 7th level fighter, or a 7th level wizard, etc. What would be the ideal level for our characters to combat a black dragon? BTW, what does CR 9 stand for?CR stands for Challenge Rating. All creatures in the Monster Manual have a CR, which tells the DM at what character level the monster is appropriate to pit against a party. In the case of an adult black dragon, which has a CR of 9, it is an appropriate challenge for a party of four 9th level characters. Due to the fact that your party consists of 8 characters, you could probably do well if you were all 7th level. As 3rd and 4th level characters, many (if not all) of you will probably die. Your DM needs to reread the sections in the PHB on Multiclassing, and in the DMG about XP and the CR system.
Von Helmet 10-14-04, 10:26 AM	Well with the fighters, I know the barbarian will get a +11 attack bonus when he goes into his rage & will be able to do that twice a day. That will also add a +8 damage to his attacks. The ranger gets a +2 on attacking a dragon plus his +7 attack bonus. The other fighter gets +6 attack bonus. Not sure about the spells, none of the spellcating characters are mine(barbarian is my character). Guess we should wait to go up a couple more levels before we try and kill the beast. Eventuall it will need to be done. Guess we can thin out the goblin & hobgoblins first. Thanks for the advice!
Phrennzy 10-14-04, 10:36 AM	Since you know it is black, get acid protection/resistance spells and items cast or used on everyone before entering it's lair. Use as much clairvoyance as you can to scout out the lair. Attacking it now with the group you have would be suicide. It will kill half the group and the other half may be able to run. Everyone should be packing a ranged weapon. It's gonna fly. Everyone should have some sort of water breathing spell/item. It's gonna swim. When the big fight comes, don't play lightly. No lame spells from the casters. Bring out the big guns early and often. Now is not the time for ray of frost (unless it's a rogue using it to sneak attack.) The fighters need to flank it so the rogue can sneak attack. Clerics should remain mobile to offer healing to the fighters. You'll need more levels under your belt for sure. Sounds like fun though, knowing far in advance that you'll have to fight something awful.
Bane 10-14-04, 11:39 AM	My suggestion? Wait a few levels until you can cast fly on the entire party, and still have fireballs. When the barbarian is as mobile as the dragon, the encounter should get a lot easier. My good suggestion? Leave town. Forget about the dragon, he will crush you. Played correctly, I have seen a single Old Dragon TPK an 18th level party. There is nothing worse than an intelligent DM pitting you up against an intelligent and deadly opponent.
KangTheCallipygian 10-14-04, 12:12 PM	The fighters need to flank it so the rogue can sneak attack.Nitpick for self-described newbie Von Helmet's benefit: The rogue must be one of the flankers in order to sneak attack. Maybe that's what Phrennzy meant, but it looks like that sentence is saying that a flanked creature is suscpetible to sneak attacks from non-flanking rogues, which is not the case. ie. If a rogue and a fighter flank it, the rogue can sneak attack. But if 2 fighters flank it, the rogue can't sneak attack unless she and someone else are also flanking it, or the dragon is denied its dex bonus to AC for some reason. From the SRD: The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. ...ie. not "when the rogue's target is flanked"... Kang
ElvenEnigma 10-14-04, 05:51 PM	Black dragons are mean...like everyone else has said I agree with waiting awhile before you try to tackle him. At least till you're level 8. Also, when the time has come to fight him be prepared, and have a detailed plan of action that will try to limit the battlefield to your advantage. Just remember to get the job done. It' s never good to have a dragon with a grudge against you, heh. But yeah, research this particular dragon, I'm sure there is more to him than just bossing little creatures around. You could always try luring him into a prepared ambush, or even be sneakier and set up an ambush with some good aligned dragons. So that when he goes to the place he instead finds himself cornered with other dragons, either chromatic or metallic. Metallic won't like him due to his evil nature, while the chromatic ones will probably want his loot. Just a thought, oh, and resist energy is a must.
DragonsArt 10-14-04, 05:58 PM	You are dead. Just use the money to run buy tombstones. With an adult dragon, I really don't care what you did... I'd kill you at that level. The feat effect alone will cause most of your party to be panicked. He has DR, spells... darkness... multiple attacks. Plus, if he uses the stuff in his hoard... potions, wands, scrolls, etc.... best not to think about it. If the DM has access to the Draconium... with dragon feats... TOAST. Nope... if the DM plays him anywhere near his intelligence, you are dead. I have a party of 6th level characters that were considering going against a young adult dragon and I was afraid it would be a total party kill. I nearly killed them with a (M) juvenille dragon when they were at your level.
CaineTheInsaine 10-15-04, 03:45 AM	I got to go with Dragon's Art here.. Lets look at the Barbarian, average hitoints given a 16 con.. 36 hps, The dragon is capable od doing more then that with one use of its breath weapon. An average of 32hp of damage with a full attack action, average of 24 hp damage with its breath weapon. If it has the shape breath weapon feat from Dragonomicron then ti can hit the whole party one shot. Average of 199 hps for the dragon, BAB +19, its gonan hit eveyr time. +29 grapple checks? Your insaine to try to take it on this early. But if you have to? Prep for acid, but also prep for at least one other energy type. We got a 3rd level Caster level, probally at least one or two spells with a diffrent energy type. Prepare to take cover from a flying dragon, so have ranged weapons. Try to stay awya from deep bodies of water. With the grapple check you can expect some snatch and grab attacks. Also look for possible defenses against fear effects. You don't want half the party running away if the creature roars, especially the low Will save fighters and abrbarians. If all that is left behind is your wizards and clerics.. you need to concentrate fire. If the fight includes minions, ignore them. The dragon is the target to fear the most. Goblins and hobgoblins who see their god thing slain will likly run away. Also.. be creative, set traps of your own. Scout and plan. Try using his goblins and hobgoblins against him. Thats my opinion.. run, run far, run fast, and don't look back. but if you do.. you only have to out think your DM.