Post/Author/DateTime	Post
phil81 05-09-07, 12:00 PM	I was reading through dmg and saw a variant on damaging specific body parts, but i didnt find nothing about players trying to aim those body parts. can i find something in the core books that talks about aiming or targeting, not only for dm but for players, if you can write the pages i would look into it... thanks
tarkin 05-09-07, 01:40 PM	The rule you read did not allow aiming. It required the damage to be rolled entirely randomly. What you want is an entirely different thing, an 'aimed' or 'called shot'. D20 has lots of different 'aimed' or 'called' shot rules. But you may be dissapointed. Many people remember old edition, incredibally abusive called shot rules and want a similar thing. But d20 worked hard at making their called shot rules fair, instead of being abusive. Here is a partial list of them: Trip (to the legs) Disarm (to the hands) Sunder (to the weapons) Power Attack (to small, but vunerable parts of the body) Sneak Attack (to vunerable parts of the body, usually guarded by people that pay attention to combat) Feats/effects that enhance/depend on sneak attack, such as Hamstring (to the ankle) Criticals feats that enhance/depend on criticals Stun attack (Monk) Rogue Crippling strike ability Assasin's Death Attack Coup De Grace rules (cut his throat) Notice the lack of "I take a minor penalty to hit and have huge non-hitpoint effects". Why? Because True Strike makes minor penalties to hit a joke. Also notice how hard a disabling/killing strike is. Again, done for a reason.
Frugal 05-09-07, 01:54 PM	I'd disagree about power attack being aiming for a smaller area (fact it only works for melee weapons for instance, a called shot system should work with ranged as well) and that's all flavour anyway so not a big issue. The big problem you run into is that D&D has no detrimental effects from damage until you hit 0 HP or lower. So you run into issues like aiming for the heart and stabbing the guy, that should kill him right? But unless you make it an instant death effect (horribly abusable) it's not going to happen. The mistake you're making is assuming that you're attempting to determine the effect before you roll to hit. What you need to do is roll to hit and determine damage and then describe the effect, or use a specific attack or feat (or whatever) that would represent the type of attack you're making.
jadehawk 05-09-07, 02:19 PM	I'd disagree about power attack being aiming for a smaller area (fact it only works for melee weapons for instance, a called shot system should work with ranged as well) and that's all flavour anyway so not a big issue. The big problem you run into is that D&D has no detrimental effects from damage until you hit 0 HP or lower. So you run into issues like aiming for the heart and stabbing the guy, that should kill him right? But unless you make it an instant death effect (horribly abusable) it's not going to happen. The mistake you're making is assuming that you're attempting to determine the effect before you roll to hit. What you need to do is roll to hit and determine damage and then describe the effect, or use a specific attack or feat (or whatever) that would represent the type of attack you're making. Power attack is probably easiest defined as the "grip it and rip it" approach. It is sacrificing accuracy to slam a weapon hard, so I would call it the opposite of a call or aimed shot. And while power attack does not usually apply to ranged attacks, IIRC you can take 2 feats (Brutal Throw and Ranged Power Attack?) to do just that. I would disagree that it was a mistake in attempting to determine effects before rolling to hit. This is done in several ways in the game (as has been indicated by Tarkin). Its just not something you can do without proper training (ie. feats or class abilities). Of course, some of these effects reduce your combat effectiveness otherwise (they are often standard actions so you can't full attack for instance) or reduces damage as a sacrifice of getting some other benefit (which is common with sneak attack, sacking sneak damage dice to dehabilitate opponents in numerous ways).
Frugal 05-09-07, 02:27 PM	Power attack is probably easiest defined as the "grip it and rip it" approach. It is sacrificing accuracy to slam a weapon hard, so I would call it the opposite of a call or aimed shot. And while power attack does not usually apply to ranged attacks, IIRC you can take 2 feats (Brutal Throw and Ranged Power Attack?) to do just that. Exactly, I see power attack as being, well, a power attack, sacrificing accuracy for power. I would disagree that it was a mistake in attempting to determine effects before rolling to hit. This is done in several ways in the game (as has been indicated by Tarkin). Its just not something you can do without proper training (ie. feats or class abilities). Of course, some of these effects reduce your combat effectiveness otherwise (they are often standard actions so you can't full attack for instance) or reduces damage as a sacrifice of getting some other benefit (which is common with sneak attack, sacking sneak damage dice to dehabilitate opponents in numerous ways). Yes, what I mean is something like saying, "I'm going to shoot him in the eye and blind him," or, "I'm gong to stab him in the heart." Unless you have some feat that allows you to blind a target as part of your attack then the eye strike isn't appropriate (in D&D terms) as you don't suffer any additional effects from normal damage until you run out of HP. For the 2nd attack, it's more like you hit, maybe score a critical, and deal enough damage to drop the person, then describe it as stabbing them in the heart and them doubling over.
phil81 05-09-07, 02:35 PM	so i should stop to look in the books for a rules that would say; take one round to aim at your target and strike on the next round if the target didnt move...or take -2 to attack roll and aim a body part, that will with the normal damage do something special like if im aiming at his arm or hand, the target on his next attack and untill healed would have a -2 or maybe -4 penalty if critical hited on her attack ...something like that... ?
Frugal 05-09-07, 02:43 PM	so i should stop to look in the books for a rules that would say; take one round to aim at your target and strike on the next round if the target didnt move...or take -2 to attack roll and aim a body part, that will with the normal damage do something special like if im aiming at his arm or hand, the target on his next attack and untill healed would have a -2 or maybe -4 penalty if critical hited on her attack ...something like that... ? The big issue is that called shots just plain don't work in 3.5. For starters, you need to account for AC not covering the area. For a little more depth on the subject read this article (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/calledshots.html).
tarkin 05-09-07, 02:56 PM	Yes,you CAN describe Power Attack as being the way you describe it. You can also describe it in a different way. It is functionally one of the things people are looking for in an "aimed" or "called shot": Penatly to hit in exchange for greater damage. It definitely belongs on the list of 'called shots'.
jadehawk 05-09-07, 04:23 PM	Aimed shots and called shots are supposed to bring about certain results for hitting in a critical area. Extra damage is one of the results of certain call shots; in fact that is what sneak attacking is. But for other things as you have mentioned, it brings about particular results like tripping, hamstringing, and stunning. While power attack does reduce your attack bonus to add damage, it is not the same as a called shot. I would say it is more like combat expertise in the sense that you are sacrificing something (in this case accuracy) to apply it somewhere else (in this case damage). In this sense it is the complete opposite of an aimed shot. A called shot or aimed shot by definition is taking your time or focusing your mind to strike a particular/vital area. While this may make it more difficult to hit, it is not because your attack roll goes down, it is because your target (AC) is tougher to hit. However, in DND they often do not increase the AC for these special occasions as feats and class features assume you have special training. It is the difference between the attack penalty associated to fighting on the ground and the AC bonus due to cover. Power attack reduces your attack bonus because you are swinging wildly, which is the oppossite of an aimed or called shot. If power attack was harder to land because you were hitting a more particular (difficult) target, it would increase the target's AC, not decrease your attack bonus.
j3st3r 05-09-07, 05:31 PM	Torn Asunder: Critical Hits (http://dragonwing.net/Torn_Asunder.htm) has rules for called shots. It's quite neat book for those who would like to add more severe criticals with all kinds of nasty side effects.
Frugal 05-10-07, 08:05 AM	Yes,you CAN describe Power Attack as being the way you describe it. You can also describe it in a different way. It is functionally one of the things people are looking for in an "aimed" or "called shot": Penatly to hit in exchange for greater damage. It definitely belongs on the list of 'called shots'. The end result (a harder attack for more damage) is the same but the name, STR requirement, fact it doesn't work with ranged weapons, and increased damage for 2-handed weapons all go against the concept of a precisely landed blow. Now if we had a feat called "Precise Attack" that had a DEX requirement, that worked with ranged weapons and offered a similar mechanic then I could see it.
jadehawk 05-10-07, 04:15 PM	Exactly, I see power attack as being, well, a power attack, sacrificing accuracy for power. Yes, what I mean is something like saying, "I'm going to shoot him in the eye and blind him," or, "I'm gong to stab him in the heart." Unless you have some feat that allows you to blind a target as part of your attack then the eye strike isn't appropriate (in D&D terms) as you don't suffer any additional effects from normal damage until you run out of HP. For the 2nd attack, it's more like you hit, maybe score a critical, and deal enough damage to drop the person, then describe it as stabbing them in the heart and them doubling over. Hey Frugal, Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post and that I didn't recognize the exact intent of the part I disagreed with. Indeed I meant to suggest that I agree with you about power attack, and from your next post you've already made it explicit that so do you. And as for our disagreement, if you were indicating that without a proper feat or class ability that says you can focus an attack for a particular effect then yes I agree it is a mistake to assume the result of an attack before making it, besides hoping for damage.
Xeviat-DM 05-10-07, 04:39 PM	Book of Iron Might has a nearly perfect maneuver system that one can use to create called shots. It was written by Mike Mearls and published by Monte's company, Malavoc Press. It was pointed out to me on these boards, and I've loved it ever since.
Vharuck 05-10-07, 04:44 PM	Called shots may start out as fun for the PCs, but then the players will become much more stronger (more choices = better tactics = easier fights). To make the playing ground level again, the NPCs would use called shots as well. And let me tell you, barring high level costly magic, called shots make instantly retired characters.