akimbo repeating hand crossbows? [Archive] - Wizards Community

akimbo repeating hand crossbows? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kanachi
05-27-06, 08:03 PM Hiya everyone, i'm kinda new to DnD (well the pen and paper games anyway) so forgive me if this is a daft question... I'm playing a Scout and i was really interested in combining the scouts mobile method of combat with 2 repeating hand crossbows, kind of like a character from the matrix or a john woo film. lol

Anyway i've read a couple of different rules for repeating hand crossbows on the web and the akimbo wielding of them is not really that clear.

obviously i know that i would need the two weapon fighting and exotic weapon feats.

i'm a novice, but to me the idea of akimbo weapons used in this manor does not seem totally out of this world.

So is it possible to use two repeating hand crossbows in this mannor and without having to stand still to load them?

if its not possible with repeating hand crossbows is it possible to achieve this effect with other weapons?

Thanks :)
Rudi_Schteppen
05-27-06, 08:21 PM Answer:
Yes, you can do it. The only problem is you need two hands to reload the crossbows. I suppose if you talk with your DM he or she will let you get away with reloading them on the move as a Move Action, but meh, up to the DM.

Instead, try getting two Wands of Fireball or Magic Missile, and duel wielding with those. It's also a lot more D&D that way, using fantasy instead of reality... Also, no reloading, you just run out of charges. But when you are throwing 10d6 fireballs around, one hit usually is a kill.
Kanachi
05-27-06, 09:28 PM what does everyone else think?
Lord Ian Stark
05-27-06, 10:58 PM Crossbow, Repeating
The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.

After the first shot of each you need both hands to reload each one. Perhaps asking your DM if you can create some "auto reload" enhancement on the weapon as a special magical ability. I'd say it would be worth a +1 weapon enhancement so the crossbow already has to be a +1 weapon so it would be a total +2 cost.

The cost of each weapon would be 250 (Light Repeating Crossbow) + 300 (MW) + 8000 (magic cost) = 8550 GP

Now when wielding a light crossbow in one hand to shoot it, it's a -2 to the attack. Applying the two weapon fighting rules makes this another -2 to each hand. (assuming you have the TWF feat as they're both light weapons.)

So it's a total -4 to each attack. -6 each if you have rapid shot to gain another attack.

I'd allow it as a DM. However you still need to reload each weapons clip when it runs out of bolts. Which takes two hands to reload and provokes an attack of opportunity.

That's my look at it. ;)
Kanachi
05-27-06, 11:06 PM thanks dude

i was talking about hand crossbows though...

well... repeating ones anyway

also that seems pritty expensive for what they would be? i was thinking a masterwork upgrade would be enough.

am i wrong?
Lord Ian Stark
05-27-06, 11:44 PM thanks dude

i was talking about hand crossbows though...

well... repeating ones anyway

also that seems pritty expensive for what they would be? i was thinking a masterwork upgrade would be enough.

am i wrong?

Well, Hand Crossbows only do 1d4 damage when Light Repeating Crossbows like I had above do 1d8 damage. They can be shot in one hand without a penalty but still need two to reload.

So basically your gaining a +2 to attack but losing half the damage. Not great IMO.

The price was going by what you asked, having it reload by itself. So I created a way that your DM may go for. If he/she will allow it to be a nonmagical enhancement to the weapon that's cheaper, then by all means go for it. :)
Tristan
05-28-06, 12:37 AM I'd like to say that humanity didn't have repeating guns for a while for a reason (in other words you dont see a purely technilogical thing for this in non d20modern games).

however, naturally magic is a great thing. In Heros of Battle there is an enchantment for seige weapons so that they load themselves. This should be enough to convince your DM that a "Self Loading" enchantment's existence makes since, hopefully he will give it to you for a +1 enhancment fee.
kelvinaw273
05-28-06, 12:51 AM The repeating crossbow requires both hands to operate - one to hold and one to crank on the reload/recock lever. Sure you could make a hand crossbow with the samne principal, but you'd still only be able to use one in both hands.

If you really want this character type, play d20 modern or wild west.
Rudi_Schteppen
05-28-06, 01:28 AM Or just skip the darn crossbows and get WANDS! They work just as well, and in most cases better. 200ft. 3d6 fireball? That's a heck of a lot better than a puny 140ft. 1d6 piercing bolt. Just get a few ranks in UMD and you are set. Cooler looking too. Because wands don't just have to be sticks. They can be styled afet pistols, so that you can just swap out the de-charged "barrels" with fresh ones after a lot of killing. Nothing like pointing a small weapon at a stupidly laughing orge's face and yelling "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" and shooting your magical wad in his face. Mebbe I should rephrase that...
tarkin
05-28-06, 09:14 AM The self-reloading crossbow was expensive.

Basically, the idea of using two crossbows is a bad idea.

You end up paying more in money, feats, and bab penalties then it is worth.
Kanachi
05-28-06, 11:29 AM thanks guys,

I was going more for a visual thing (looking cool) than trying to achieve crazy damage scores. Anyway, i think in the end i will admit defeat and play a more traditional bow armed scout.

I'll just hope my characters grandkids are around for the day when some clever gnome invents a ranged weapon usable in a single hand :) hehe

thanks for all your help though :)
dengarbountyhunter
05-28-06, 12:20 PM If you really want to shoot things with both hands, you could throw darts , shuriken, bolas, throwing axes, daggers, light hammers, etc. at your full BAB with Quick Draw. However, I admit it's not as cool as two repeating crossbows...

But if you had a thri-kreen! One heavy crossbow for primary hand and off-hand #1 and one hand crossbow that you shoot with off-hand #2 and reload with off-hand #3... But again, you're better off with throwing weapons :( .

Edit: Hey, by the way, how much crossbows can thri-kreen reload in one round??
Lord Ian Stark
05-28-06, 12:20 PM I'll just hope my characters grandkids are around for the day when some clever gnome invents a ranged weapon usable in a single hand :) hehe

That day could be today if your DM ok's the "auto load" enhancement we're talking about. ;)
Thorak
05-28-06, 02:25 PM A crossbow is not a gun. You cannot make them into automatic weapons, which is what you want. A repeater means you don't need to reload before every shot, it doesn't mean it fires every time you pull the trigger.

This is why a repeating rifle will require you to manually (pull the string back) it after every shot. See those sniper movies where the guy takes a second to pop out the spent cartridge and (chamber) a new one in? That's a repeating rifle. It needs both hands, and cannot fire on automatic.

Repeating /= automatic.

Edit: the two bits in parentheses are written that way because the forums don't like the proper verb I was using. It's got four letters, and is an alternative term for a rooster. While I see why it could be on the filter, it amazes me that a useful word like this has been banned when "ass" and "bastard" aren't.
InkBlot
05-28-06, 03:27 PM Or just skip the darn crossbows and get WANDS! They work just as well, and in most cases better. 200ft. 3d6 fireball? That's a heck of a lot better than a puny 140ft. 1d6 piercing bolt. Just get a few ranks in UMD and you are set. Cooler looking too. Because wands don't just have to be sticks. They can be styled afet pistols, so that you can just swap out the de-charged "barrels" with fresh ones after a lot of killing. Nothing like pointing a small weapon at a stupidly laughing orge's face and yelling "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" and shooting your magical wad in his face. Mebbe I should rephrase that...
You forgot to mention the feat from Complete Arcane that he would need. Normally using a wand requires a standard action - you can't fire two in the same round. With the feat from Complete Arcane (forgot the name, sorry) you can fire two in the same round, but it eats up extra charges.
Herobane
05-28-06, 10:05 PM You could, but you'd have to drop one, reload one, drop the other one, reload the one in your hand...
It's almost as useless as trying to use two bows at the same time. So, you could, but not advised.
InkBlot
05-28-06, 10:53 PM You might be able to convince your DM that an Amulet of Unseen Servant could reload your crossbows for you.
Kanachi
05-29-06, 09:18 AM lol, that invisible servant would have the dullest job in the world "pull back the string, load a bolt... pull back the string, load a bolt... pull back the string, load a bolt..."

:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kanachi 05-27-06, 08:03 PM	Hiya everyone, i'm kinda new to DnD (well the pen and paper games anyway) so forgive me if this is a daft question... I'm playing a Scout and i was really interested in combining the scouts mobile method of combat with 2 repeating hand crossbows, kind of like a character from the matrix or a john woo film. lol Anyway i've read a couple of different rules for repeating hand crossbows on the web and the akimbo wielding of them is not really that clear. obviously i know that i would need the two weapon fighting and exotic weapon feats. i'm a novice, but to me the idea of akimbo weapons used in this manor does not seem totally out of this world. So is it possible to use two repeating hand crossbows in this mannor and without having to stand still to load them? if its not possible with repeating hand crossbows is it possible to achieve this effect with other weapons? Thanks :)
Rudi_Schteppen 05-27-06, 08:21 PM	Answer: Yes, you can do it. The only problem is you need two hands to reload the crossbows. I suppose if you talk with your DM he or she will let you get away with reloading them on the move as a Move Action, but meh, up to the DM. Instead, try getting two Wands of Fireball or Magic Missile, and duel wielding with those. It's also a lot more D&D that way, using fantasy instead of reality... Also, no reloading, you just run out of charges. But when you are throwing 10d6 fireballs around, one hit usually is a kill.
Kanachi 05-27-06, 09:28 PM	what does everyone else think?
Lord Ian Stark 05-27-06, 10:58 PM	Crossbow, Repeating The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts. After the first shot of each you need both hands to reload each one. Perhaps asking your DM if you can create some "auto reload" enhancement on the weapon as a special magical ability. I'd say it would be worth a +1 weapon enhancement so the crossbow already has to be a +1 weapon so it would be a total +2 cost. The cost of each weapon would be 250 (Light Repeating Crossbow) + 300 (MW) + 8000 (magic cost) = 8550 GP Now when wielding a light crossbow in one hand to shoot it, it's a -2 to the attack. Applying the two weapon fighting rules makes this another -2 to each hand. (assuming you have the TWF feat as they're both light weapons.) So it's a total -4 to each attack. -6 each if you have rapid shot to gain another attack. I'd allow it as a DM. However you still need to reload each weapons clip when it runs out of bolts. Which takes two hands to reload and provokes an attack of opportunity. That's my look at it. ;)
Kanachi 05-27-06, 11:06 PM	thanks dude i was talking about hand crossbows though... well... repeating ones anyway also that seems pritty expensive for what they would be? i was thinking a masterwork upgrade would be enough. am i wrong?
Lord Ian Stark 05-27-06, 11:44 PM	thanks dude i was talking about hand crossbows though... well... repeating ones anyway also that seems pritty expensive for what they would be? i was thinking a masterwork upgrade would be enough. am i wrong? Well, Hand Crossbows only do 1d4 damage when Light Repeating Crossbows like I had above do 1d8 damage. They can be shot in one hand without a penalty but still need two to reload. So basically your gaining a +2 to attack but losing half the damage. Not great IMO. The price was going by what you asked, having it reload by itself. So I created a way that your DM may go for. If he/she will allow it to be a nonmagical enhancement to the weapon that's cheaper, then by all means go for it. :)
Tristan 05-28-06, 12:37 AM	I'd like to say that humanity didn't have repeating guns for a while for a reason (in other words you dont see a purely technilogical thing for this in non d20modern games). however, naturally magic is a great thing. In Heros of Battle there is an enchantment for seige weapons so that they load themselves. This should be enough to convince your DM that a "Self Loading" enchantment's existence makes since, hopefully he will give it to you for a +1 enhancment fee.
kelvinaw273 05-28-06, 12:51 AM	The repeating crossbow requires both hands to operate - one to hold and one to crank on the reload/recock lever. Sure you could make a hand crossbow with the samne principal, but you'd still only be able to use one in both hands. If you really want this character type, play d20 modern or wild west.
Rudi_Schteppen 05-28-06, 01:28 AM	Or just skip the darn crossbows and get WANDS! They work just as well, and in most cases better. 200ft. 3d6 fireball? That's a heck of a lot better than a puny 140ft. 1d6 piercing bolt. Just get a few ranks in UMD and you are set. Cooler looking too. Because wands don't just have to be sticks. They can be styled afet pistols, so that you can just swap out the de-charged "barrels" with fresh ones after a lot of killing. Nothing like pointing a small weapon at a stupidly laughing orge's face and yelling "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" and shooting your magical wad in his face. Mebbe I should rephrase that...
tarkin 05-28-06, 09:14 AM	The self-reloading crossbow was expensive. Basically, the idea of using two crossbows is a bad idea. You end up paying more in money, feats, and bab penalties then it is worth.
Kanachi 05-28-06, 11:29 AM	thanks guys, I was going more for a visual thing (looking cool) than trying to achieve crazy damage scores. Anyway, i think in the end i will admit defeat and play a more traditional bow armed scout. I'll just hope my characters grandkids are around for the day when some clever gnome invents a ranged weapon usable in a single hand :) hehe thanks for all your help though :)
dengarbountyhunter 05-28-06, 12:20 PM	If you really want to shoot things with both hands, you could throw darts , shuriken, bolas, throwing axes, daggers, light hammers, etc. at your full BAB with Quick Draw. However, I admit it's not as cool as two repeating crossbows... But if you had a thri-kreen! One heavy crossbow for primary hand and off-hand #1 and one hand crossbow that you shoot with off-hand #2 and reload with off-hand #3... But again, you're better off with throwing weapons :( . Edit: Hey, by the way, how much crossbows can thri-kreen reload in one round??
Lord Ian Stark 05-28-06, 12:20 PM	I'll just hope my characters grandkids are around for the day when some clever gnome invents a ranged weapon usable in a single hand :) hehe That day could be today if your DM ok's the "auto load" enhancement we're talking about. ;)
Thorak 05-28-06, 02:25 PM	A crossbow is not a gun. You cannot make them into automatic weapons, which is what you want. A repeater means you don't need to reload before every shot, it doesn't mean it fires every time you pull the trigger. This is why a repeating rifle will require you to manually (pull the string back) it after every shot. See those sniper movies where the guy takes a second to pop out the spent cartridge and (chamber) a new one in? That's a repeating rifle. It needs both hands, and cannot fire on automatic. Repeating /= automatic. Edit: the two bits in parentheses are written that way because the forums don't like the proper verb I was using. It's got four letters, and is an alternative term for a rooster. While I see why it could be on the filter, it amazes me that a useful word like this has been banned when "ass" and "bastard" aren't.
InkBlot 05-28-06, 03:27 PM	Or just skip the darn crossbows and get WANDS! They work just as well, and in most cases better. 200ft. 3d6 fireball? That's a heck of a lot better than a puny 140ft. 1d6 piercing bolt. Just get a few ranks in UMD and you are set. Cooler looking too. Because wands don't just have to be sticks. They can be styled afet pistols, so that you can just swap out the de-charged "barrels" with fresh ones after a lot of killing. Nothing like pointing a small weapon at a stupidly laughing orge's face and yelling "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" and shooting your magical wad in his face. Mebbe I should rephrase that... You forgot to mention the feat from Complete Arcane that he would need. Normally using a wand requires a standard action - you can't fire two in the same round. With the feat from Complete Arcane (forgot the name, sorry) you can fire two in the same round, but it eats up extra charges.
Herobane 05-28-06, 10:05 PM	You could, but you'd have to drop one, reload one, drop the other one, reload the one in your hand... It's almost as useless as trying to use two bows at the same time. So, you could, but not advised.
InkBlot 05-28-06, 10:53 PM	You might be able to convince your DM that an Amulet of Unseen Servant could reload your crossbows for you.
Kanachi 05-29-06, 09:18 AM	lol, that invisible servant would have the dullest job in the world "pull back the string, load a bolt... pull back the string, load a bolt... pull back the string, load a bolt..." :)