Post/Author/DateTime	Post
reese 04-27-05, 05:03 PM	what would the penalties be to fight with a staff in one hand and a longsword in the other? obviously you can't use both ends of the staff so i have a variant wizards staff, where the top is carved or shaped, making it too unbalanced to TWF with alone, but the head does 1d8 damage. Would i have to use a small staff? i would try but i thought there was a penalty for using a weapon to small for you. Inspirations? Gandalf the paladin leader from "Marked for Death"
Santrilla 04-27-05, 05:10 PM	Hmm. The staff you've described (1d8 damage) is basically a Large club. Wielding a weapon inappropriate to your size incurs a -2 penalty. Add that to the standard Two Weapon Fighting penalties, and you're in business. So, if we assume you've got the staff in your main hand and the longsword in the other, that's attacking at -8 with the staff (-6 normal, -2 size) and -10 with the longsword. Two weapon fighting feat would reduce those to -4 and -4. EDIT: Unless I misunderstood your post. Is the staff you described 1d8/1d6, or just 1d8?
reese 04-27-05, 05:13 PM	just 1d8, can't use the other end, screws up balance.
Nuntius128 04-27-05, 06:21 PM	The penalty: credibility as a roleplayer by copying anything from LoTR movies.
scwolf 04-27-05, 06:26 PM	Sword & Staff was a fighting style long before those movies, I hope you know. Next you'll be saying someone who has a dwarf who carries a couple of different sizes of axes for different situations is a ripoff too.
Nuntius128 04-27-05, 06:28 PM	Sword & Staff was a fighting style long before those movies, I hope you know. And yet the OP said "ala Gandalf." Funny, isn't it?
reese 04-27-05, 06:29 PM	heaven forbid the elf character i've been thinking of picks up a bow or something. what would the world come too? and i got the inspiration not only from gandalf, however i put that there because most people have seen the movie and could visualize what i'm thinking of.
Nuntius128 04-27-05, 06:32 PM	heaven forbid the elf character i've been thinking of picks up a bow or something. what would the world come too? and i got the inspiration not only from gandalf, however i put that there because most people have seen the movie and could visualize what i'm thinking of. I think saying "figting with a sword and a staff at the same time" puts a pretty distinct image in my head. And you can have an Elf with a bow. Just don't try to have him skate on his shield down stairs.
reese 04-27-05, 06:38 PM	not trying to be a snot or anything, but you are not everyone. some others still think of the impossibilities of wielding a full staff and a sword together the first time they read it. sorry for trying to clear any confusion ahead of time. and i'll remember the to tell the elf to make the appropriate balance and jump checks. oh, and to make sure he's not going to try it with a buckler or anything. an elf could do it with a light shield, but most other medium races would need a heavy shield for sure. i might even treat it as a charge... and it was not his shield... (so you don't confuse anyone else)
Nuntius128 04-27-05, 07:11 PM	Ya got me. I'm not everyone else.
Draco Strang 04-27-05, 07:11 PM	And you can have an Elf with a bow. Just don't try to have him skate on his shield down stairs. With a few feats, ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble...I'm sure it would be possible.... :D
reese 04-27-05, 10:44 PM	could i get anyone else's opinions or does anyone think there might be problems with this?
John Q. Mayhem 04-27-05, 10:54 PM	I'd suggest just allowing a normal staff to be used as an off-hand weapon, perhaps requiring a feat that also gave some small benefit. Like, Whirlin' Twirlin' Staff Monkey [general] You can whirl that staff like nobody's business! Prerequisites: TWF, WF (staff), Combat Expertise, Int 13+, Dex 15+ Benefit: You can wield a staff sized for you in your off-hand while two-weapon fighting, treating it as a light weapon. When you fight defensively, take the full defense action, or use the Combat Expertise feat to take a penalty of at least -2 on you attacks, you gain an additional +2 bonus to AC. Based on the broad-bladed shortsword from CAdv. Less powerful, but cool. Tres cool.
wordserpent 04-27-05, 11:50 PM	Since a staff is normally a two-handed weapon I would probably tack on a -4 non proficiency attack penalty in addition to using two large weapons with whatever feats your character has.
Vahenir 04-28-05, 01:17 AM	There's nothing wrong with copying something out of a movie. It does not make you lose credibility as a gamer. Unless you believe that games shouldn't take from movies. Yeah.. that's a good idea. Let's ignore every movie we've ever see for our fantasy game. While we're at it, let's ignore all books too. Because books and movies are much the same. Everything you put into a game must be ENTIRELY original. Elves are a no-no. So are humans. Orcs are gone. Halflings and Gnomes have to go. Swords definitely need to go... ;) As for the main purpose of the thread. Try just making a feat out of it. Two-Weapon Wizard Prerequs: Quarterstaff Proficiency, Dex 13+ Benefit: You may treat a Quarterstaff as a one-hand weapon instead of a two-hand weapon for the purposes of fighting with two weapons. You still incur all normal penalties for using a non-light weapon with Two-Weapon Fighting. Simple and effective, without being too good. Really, I'd even consider it almost sub-optimal, since the Quarterstaff doesn't even do all that much damage to begin with. There are better choices, but there are worse ones too. Seems balanced enough.
shift244 04-28-05, 02:24 AM	Hmm... would a Wizard even hit anything when fighting with two weapons? Not to mention that the off-hand weapon is now a two handed weapon? even if you decide to treat it as a one handed "long club" that still hurts an already low BAB. I am not questioning your decision to make such a character, but within the mechanics, your character would need levels in other classes to be more effective with the suggested style at all.... or maybe it's just me, that a character would actually choose to be less effective when other party members depend on him to make it out of an encounter losing as little as they can. Otherwise, I'm a proponent of, "if you simply want your character to feel different, and if it is not going to really make mechanical changes, then you can simply RP it in." Else, I suggest to create a feat that allows you to treat a staff as a club when you choose to wield it in one hand (either the main or off hand, doesn't matter).. a little on the weak side? Perhaps you can add that you can still use the staff to expend charges (ie cast a spell stored in the staff) on a Concentration check at DC 15 if you trade your 1st attack (of two?), whenever making a Full Attack and taking TWF penalties.
Neodymium 04-28-05, 02:30 AM	the beauty of this "style" is that gandalf could easily accept the penalties for fighting like this with no special feats because he's a high-level wizard and he's fighting low-level humanoid mooks with low ACs.
Vahenir 04-28-05, 03:45 AM	The poster never specified the exact class built. It's quite possible that he's making a Wizard 2/Fighter 8, or something. In that case, the TWF penalties are acceptable. But for a straight Wizard.. definitely not worth it.
John Q. Mayhem 04-28-05, 09:01 AM	the beauty of this "style" is that gandalf could easily accept the penalties for fighting like this with no special feats because he's a high-level wizard and he's fighting low-level humanoid mooks with low ACs. With the risk of starting a long-standing arguement...he's a high-HD outsider :)
Kyuketsukiouji 04-28-05, 10:13 AM	Wouldn't either monkey grip or wield oversized weapon allow you to wield a two-handed weapon your size with one hand? Basically, you'd use the staff one-handed as a single-head weapon, and the sword with the other hand...
John Q. Mayhem 04-28-05, 10:15 AM	Wouldn't either monkey grip or wield oversized weapon allow you to wield a two-handed weapon your size with one hand? Basically, you'd use the staff one-handed as a single-head weapon, and the sword with the other hand... In 3.0, yes, but not anymore. Monkey Grip would let you wield a Large club as a one-handed weapon with a -2 penalty, but not a Medium staff. Yeah, I know it's silly.
reese 04-28-05, 10:36 AM	thanks everyone!! Vahenir, I think that feat is the answer I needed. Sorry for not mentioning it, the character is planned to be heavy fighter with enough wizard to get in the eldritch knight PrC. It's an Eberron campaign and my character grew up as the "son" of the head guard of Arcanix, who liked that he could always beat up the people who laughed at his spellcasting abililty if he wanted. Also, wizards usually end up with one of my variant staffs mentioned in my first post as a "badge", and he IS a wizard...
Vahenir 04-28-05, 10:44 AM	Vahenir, I think that feat is the answer I needed. Chalk up another point to my ability to create functional feats on the fly.
Santrilla 04-28-05, 01:12 PM	Sorry for not mentioning it, the character is planned to be heavy fighter with enough wizard to get in the eldritch knight PrC. Cool, that's the same concept I'm going for in my current game. Except replace wizard with sorcerer. Which is a pain because I don't get 3rd level spells until level 6 as a sorc... :(
Neodymium 04-28-05, 01:41 PM	With the risk of starting a long-standing arguement...he's a high-HD outsider :) good point! regardless, he has a high enough BAB that taking some -4 penalties is not going to reduce his effectiveness against orc mooks.
Vahenir 04-28-05, 02:08 PM	regardless, he has a high enough BAB that taking some -4 penalties is not going to reduce his effectiveness against orc mooks. He could be a 10th level Fighter and it wouldn't severely hamper him against Orc mooks. Unfortunately, he also used that style of combat in Moria... when fighting the Troll (he was killing mostly mooks, but he took swipes at the Troll too). 'Course... my opinion is that, regardless of whatever ridiculous uber-level you believe Gandalf MUST have been (I'm of the mind that you simply cannot translate LotR characters into the d20 system), the films were just that - films. And sometimes, not always, but sometimes - films and epic action doesn't translate to the mechanical number-crunching of D&D.
Ged Coldplain 04-28-05, 06:40 PM	Can't you just the stats of a heavy mace or similar weapon and make it "look” like a staff, or just call it a bloody staff? Still a simple weapon and you will still look like Gandalf, unless the dm is a real bothersome person he will let you have your “heavy mace that looks like a staff, but still works like a heavy mace in all aspects” weapon
SeveredMind 04-28-05, 07:40 PM	could i get anyone else's opinions or does anyone think there might be problems with this? It's not cool unless your character can shoot pretty light from his staff that scares fellbeasts I mean dragons away.
Ged Coldplain 04-28-05, 07:50 PM	Yes, Gandalf the legendary mage, using the power of THE BLINKING STAFF, that is the only bloody magic he does in the whole movie, and in the book he kind of does nothing, well he does light the blinking staff of “amazingment” (yes I know its not a real word) in the moria mines… wait, in The Hobbit he utilises his ULTRA magic power of setting fire(magically) on acorns and throwing them he singed several worgs with that… I have come to the conclusion that he is a druid; as he does the whole speak to ents and animals ting too. Or he is just a bluff, indeed that’s it; he is this old retired fighter-man with a staff that can blink… he has fooled the entire world on middle earth NOOOOO…. Okay okay, its this deal with the balor, but that’s just him being really beefy under that robe, got a good armlock on that balor you know…
reese 04-28-05, 08:10 PM	Just to clear things up :D : 1. Gandalf was one of the Istari, gods sent by other gods to walk middle earth in the guise of men. 2. See number 1, he WAS a high HD outsider who could not use most of his powers for fear of divine intervention. And starting out with a high HD/LA would not allow for too many wizard levels. 3. So he was a puny wizard, but he does hold un-imaginable other uber-lesser diety type powers. And so he kicked that balors ***** without using spells. And the balor probaly had too much SR to begin with. 4. All of that non-withstanding, this is too much work to to put on paper, so I will mimic only. :P
Ged Coldplain 04-28-05, 08:16 PM	I see someone missed my o-so subtle grade of “might-not-be-entirely-serious-and-just-want-to-make-some-fun-about-a-fanboy-swarmed-character” :D
reese 04-28-05, 10:39 PM	its all right I got it... just putting it down for the sake of others... please take this as a sign of my goodwill: :gift:
ShiverTheBard 04-29-05, 12:13 AM	1. High HD Outsider (Even imps have some nice SLA, so there's Gandalf's "magic") 2. He never fought with his staff, the staff was merely a symbol of his status and place as an Istari. 3. Sauron scares him. He's not some infallible god. (For more, check the extended Return of the King, Witchking breaks his staff.) 4. He kicks ass with Glamdring, his only real fighting throughout the story. 5. I win! (Yeah, I know, I rule :D 6. Chicken! :chicken: 7. Yeah for KFC!!! (Kids for Cthulu. Owns.) 8. Am I rambling yet? 9. Not quite. 10. Now............ now i'm rambling.
MadScientist!! 04-29-05, 12:25 AM	When exactly did the Witchking break his staff? (talking about the books here, the movie isn't entirely accurate) Gandalf was definately more powerful than the Witchking (of Agmar or something right? been too long since I actually read the books, but I have to study for an AP test right now...) since the witchking was just a human controlled by the rings of power and Gandalf was a high level outsider on roughly the same power level as Sauron himself (probably a little bit more powerful, but not sure about that). The only reason that he didn't use any uber powers was that he and the other Istari were supposed to lie low and not let the humans know that agents of the gods were there.
Vahenir 04-29-05, 01:50 AM	2. He never fought with his staff, the staff was merely a symbol of his status and place as an Istari. And presumably a focal point for his power. But yes, he did fight with his staff.. in the MOVIE. In the book, he is never mentioned as actually putting the two-weapon beat down.. no. 3. Sauron scares him. He's not some infallible god. (For more, check the extended Return of the King, Witchking breaks his staff.) Sauron doesn't scare him. Sauron is "probably" more powerful than him, according to Gandalf. But Gandalf was NOT frightened of the Witch-king. Quite the contrary, Gandalf stood before the Witch-king and would not allow him entrance into Minas Tirith. You're also only talking about the movie in this point, remember. The Witch-king only breaks Gandalf's staff in the movie (a LUDICROUS change from the books, if you ask me). 4. He kicks ass with Glamdring, his only real fighting throughout the story. Depends. In the books - yes, he is only noted as using Glamdring. In the movie, he does fight, fairly often, with his Staff. And with both his Staff and Glamdring at the same time. When exactly did the Witchking break his staff? (talking about the books here, the movie isn't entirely accurate) Never. Gandalf was increasingly more powerful than the Witch-king, and he knew it. All the "dread" Gandalf seems to feel of the Witch-king in the film is a total fabrication. The Witch-king simply did not have anywhere near enough power to do anything noteworthy to Gandalf. Gandalf says it himself in the books - the only thing on Middle-earth that can match him in power is Sauron himself (note that, at this point, Valinor is no longer "part" of Middle-earth). (probably a little bit more powerful, but not sure about that). Tolkien never specifies who would have been the victor between Gandalf and Sauron. Although it's worthwhile to note that it was Gandalf the GREY that cast the Necromancer (Sauron) from Dol Guldor. So obviously, in his waned power, Sauron did feel at least some fear of Gandalf's abilities. It's possible that the fully reformed Sauron (as he was during the War of the Ring, he DID have a physical shape) and Gandalf the WHITE were quite equally matched. The only reason that he didn't use any uber powers was that he and the other Istari were supposed to lie low and not let the humans know that agents of the gods were there. Yes. The Istari were forbidden from using force and power to defeat the Enemy. They could only guide and fight with what power was being used against him (I.E. Gandalf would use far less of his 'powers' fighting a Troll as he did fighting the Balrog).
Nuntius128 04-29-05, 02:14 AM	Everything you put into a game must be ENTIRELY original. Elves are a no-no. So are humans. Orcs are gone. Halflings and Gnomes have to go. Swords definitely need to go... Fair enough, fair enough. I still have my opinions, though.
Vahenir 04-29-05, 02:24 AM	Fair enough, fair enough. I still have my opinions, though. Of course.
reese 04-29-05, 05:05 PM	no hard feelings, everyone's got their opinions and sometimes they just come out the wrong way :) .
rbingham2000 04-29-05, 09:48 PM	When exactly did the Witchking break his staff? (talking about the books here, the movie isn't entirely accurate) In the extended edition ROTK movie, the Witchking gets the drop on Gandalf as he's heading for the Tomb of the Stewards to stop the maddened Denethor from burning Faramir alive. Gandalf tries to use his magic to send the Witchking away ("Go back to the darkness that awaits you and your master!"), but the Witchking responds by blowing Gandalf's staff to splinters (a real "WHOA!" moment in the movie) and smacking him down right off Shadowfax and on the floor, placing him pretty much at his mercy. But before the Witchking can capitalize on his advantage and finish Gandalf off, the Riders of Rohan finally show up on the Pelennor Fields to break the siege of Gondor.