alchemist fire, why is it so cool? [Archive] - Wizards Community

alchemist fire, why is it so cool? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ishpu
05-19-06, 08:06 AM i don't understand what's so great about alchemist fire and acid flasks, they don't seem all that great to me, i must be missing something.
Leilond
05-19-06, 08:14 AM They deal "energy damage" and for this reason they pass all DR except for DR/-
When you face a monster with a particular DR that your weapon cannot pass, it is good to have some flasks of acid and alchemical fire. They're also very good against steel, because the steel hardness (10) cannot be applied against acid and sometimes it's very good to "destroy" some steel without making any noise
Aireon_Halatirno
05-19-06, 08:17 AM Well, let me share with you an excerpt from my current campaign.

We have a Ranger(focused on ranged attacks with 0 arrows left), a bard(focused on ranged attacks with 2 arrows left), a low level Wizard with 0 spells left, a Cleric with no armor(and 1 heal minor wounds), and me, the fighter with 3 hit points left battling an Ogre Zombie, as well as a half-orc mage. Now, I had previously dealt a good deal of damage to that Ogre Zombie, but he did the same to me. I was also afflicted with contagion from the Mage, but saved one of my saving throws, but was still suffering. I could not just engage the zombie again, and with so few skilled combatants, we had very few options. However, I had 3 flasks of Alchemists fire. I hit the Ogre with one, and ended up burning him to death with it over two rounds and the Half-Orc was slain by our Bard.

Moral of the story, Alchemist's fire = good in a pinch.
ishpu
05-19-06, 08:21 AM i'm so dumb, i just realized that it does constant damage, not just initial damage, thanks for the scenario.
Raven Dark
05-19-06, 12:07 PM They deal "energy damage" and for this reason they pass all DR except for DR/-

You are wrong in this, energy damage bypasses ALL forms of DR, even DR/-.

They're also very good against steel, because the steel hardness (10) cannot be applied against acid and sometimes it's very good to "destroy" some steel without making any noise

Alchemist Fire versus steel isn't getting you anywhere fast (1d6 / 2 for hardness = 3 at most; - 10 more for hardness = 0 damage every time)

Acid flasks suck too. It's damage potential isn't cut in half like fire, but it doesn't ignore hardness either. 1d6 - 10 = 0 every time.
Zherog
05-19-06, 12:22 PM Two things that make flasks of alchemist's fire or acid really good:

1) They attack a creature's touch AC rather than their regular AC.
2) You can apply sneak attack damage.
goawayugh
05-19-06, 02:00 PM hydra
Evil Wizard
05-19-06, 02:02 PM In a game my brother was in, his ranger liked to make what he called "boom bags". Essentially, ten or so bottles of alchemist's fire in a sack that he'd hurl or drop on people. Rather pricey, but quite the spectacle for a poor man's fireball.
Finarin Panjoro
05-19-06, 03:08 PM Also very handy if you are up against swarms at low levels. Swarms are usually immune to weapon damage, but take +50% from splash weapons.

They're also outstanding back up weapons for low level wiz/sor since they attack touch AC rather than full AC.
TheFallenWriter
05-19-06, 04:30 PM Just to correct the ignorant who said *acid* does not ignore hardness, it *does*. Seeing as it reacts MAINLY to metal and eats it away faster and much worse than rust, it ignores all hardness even against wood. So please, next time you say something, do us all a favor and look it up before you do.

~The Fallen
chitzk0i
05-19-06, 04:31 PM Acid flasks suck too. It's damage potential isn't cut in half like fire, but it doesn't ignore hardness either. 1d6 - 10 = 0 every time.

Check the rules for hardness. <http://d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness>

Energy Attacks
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Acid does full damage to objects. Not much damage, but still full damage.
Moribund
05-19-06, 06:39 PM Acid and sonic attacks don't ignore hardness unless the spell or ability specifically states that it does.

Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to objects, and thus would deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever damage a Melf’s acid arrow spell deals to the animated table in your example.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-19-06, 06:48 PM We'll just ignore the obvious question as to how hardness can apply to being dissolved chemically...
Raven Dark
05-19-06, 06:56 PM We'll just ignore the obvious question as to how hardness can apply to being dissolved chemically...

Actually in real life there are various metals and materials that take much longer periods of time for acid to eat through them or are outright immune to acid. This is reflected in D&D in the form of Hardness. It may be severely abstracted to say the least, but that is the way it works nonetheless. :cool:

I knew I was right from the beginning and would have quoted the FAQ on the matter had someone not beaten me to it. Thanks Moribund.
ManTimeForgot
05-19-06, 07:15 PM By the rules hardness does apply to acid and sonic attacks unless it states otherwise in the effect.

But to those of you who say this is a reasonable abstraction of what occurs in real life I say bullocks. Gold is a heck of a lot softer than steel and less hard than iron. It weighs a good deal more but so what. Gold is soft, but it resists acidic breakdown quite readily.

Long story short hardness has nothing to do with acid resistance. Acid cuts through steel just as readily as it does through paper. The only issue with paper is that it is almost certainly less dense than steel, and acid works on a 1-1 molar destruction ratio (1 mole of acid destroys one mole of material, effectively; obviously impure acids and imperfect acid transference can result in a less than perfect ratio, but in the theoretical its correct).

MTF
ClementWillowbreaker
05-19-06, 07:22 PM The FAQ is just as good as consulting chicken bones. The Adventuring chapter is very unclear in its language- not mentioning hardness might be an oversight, instead of a deliberate choice. Although "just as they do to creatures" is good evidence- it says to ignore this stuff following about objects (the only things with hardness).

Also note that down the page there is the Vunerability rule- DMs can ignore hardness and energy-reduction if the item is weak to the energy. Paper and cloth doesn't half damage or get to apply its low-hardness to fire. Acid etching straight through steel is also an option.
Nom
05-20-06, 11:25 PM Two things that make flasks of alchemist's fire or acid really good:

1) They attack a creature's touch AC rather than their regular AC.
2) You can apply sneak attack damage.I would rule that you can't sneak attack with a splash weapon, on the simple basis that the actual projectile doesn't deal any damage. The damage is dealt by a secondary effect, namely the contents of the projectile covering the target and anything nearby.

A similar example: a flaming ping-pong ball would still do +1d6 flaming damage, but it's actually 0 + 1d6 fire. The +1d6 is bonus elemental damage and thus not subject to crits, sneak attack, or similar effects.
MingThing
05-21-06, 01:00 AM By the rules hardness does apply to acid and sonic attacks unless it states otherwise in the effect.

But to those of you who say this is a reasonable abstraction of what occurs in real life I say bullocks. Gold is a heck of a lot softer than steel and less hard than iron. It weighs a good deal more but so what. Gold is soft, but it resists acidic breakdown quite readily.

Long story short hardness has nothing to do with acid resistance. Acid cuts through steel just as readily as it does through paper. The only issue with paper is that it is almost certainly less dense than steel, and acid works on a 1-1 molar destruction ratio (1 mole of acid destroys one mole of material, effectively; obviously impure acids and imperfect acid transference can result in a less than perfect ratio, but in the theoretical its correct).

MTF

*Ahem*
*sagely voice*
sulfuric acid, SO4H2 has potential to release 2 H atoms, and thus work with a 1-2 ratio.
:P
GhostStepper
05-21-06, 01:06 AM no has mentioned the real life example of putting acid in a glass vial...it eats away at metal but not glass; guess normal rules for hardness are out the window.

In printing class we had a big ol' plastic vat full of hydrocloric acid. It didnt eat the soft plastic away but sure bit through brass and copper. Just goes to show you that the lovely, simplified world of D&D doesnt always have much to do with real life.

And i second the the previous comment on swarms. How else can a fighter damage a swarm?
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-21-06, 01:28 AM I would rule that you can't sneak attack with a splash weapon, on the simple basis that the actual projectile doesn't deal any damage. The damage is dealt by a secondary effect, namely the contents of the projectile covering the target and anything nearby.

A similar example: a flaming ping-pong ball would still do +1d6 flaming damage, but it's actually 0 + 1d6 fire. The +1d6 is bonus elemental damage and thus not subject to crits, sneak attack, or similar effects.
You don't think you can crit with an explosion of glass shards and napalm?

Singe your arm, then contemplate setting your head on fire and you'll get it.
Unsidhe
05-21-06, 12:30 PM i'm so dumb, i just realized that it does constant damage, not just initial damage, thanks for the scenario.

They catch on fire if they they fail a DC15 Reflex check, the fire doing 1d6 points of fire dmage a round.
ManTimeForgot
05-21-06, 12:50 PM *Ahem*
*sagely voice*
sulfuric acid, SO4H2 has potential to release 2 H atoms, and thus work with a 1-2 ratio.
:P

*Ahem*
*sagely voice*

Obviously you have no real conception of how acid will be used in real life. Acid is notoriously difficult to use outside of a few narrowly constrained commercial circumstances. Yes, sulfuric acid can potentially release 2 hydrogen atoms (it won't ever do that; all empirical evidence supports me here) and thus you can get better than a 1-1 ratio, but so what?

You aren't undermining my argument what-so-ever. You still need roughly the same amount or more in terms of mass of acid as you do substance. Acid can and does ignore the structural qualities of the substance its eating through, but it always does so at the same rate. If you want to eat through a kilogram of substance you essentially need a kilogram of pure acid. Yeah, you might be able to improve upon this, but barring the use of those crazy super acids you can't get much better ratios, and something tells me that protonated methane isn't exactly what D&D has in mind when they talk about an "acid." Acid is notoriously inefficient when it comes to getting destroying/cutting through materials. Why would I use a kilogram of acid to punch a hole through a stone wall when all that's needed is a small amount of high explosive or a laser?

In terms of D&D, spells are unilaterally more efficient at item destruction than acid even if you make acid into what it really is (always ignores hardness).

MTF
Jaeron Dalur
05-21-06, 05:02 PM One word: Trolls.
dengarbountyhunter
05-21-06, 05:10 PM Why is there only cones of COLD and FIREballs ? Because a cone of acid or a caustic ball would be too powerful compared to other spells for item destruction.

Edit: And, sorry for chemists and scientists who take this very seriously, but whatever this 1-1 or 2-1 molar ratio thing. We're talking D&D, a GAME where creatures that weigth tens of tons can stand up (and some even FLY!), where a sword never goes blunt and where people shoot seven arrows in six seconds.
necrom99
05-21-06, 05:30 PM but there are Acid balls and Sonic cones....just take the energy substitution feat....then your in for a melty good time! since energy bypasses DR Alchemists fire is always good for a last ditch effort. especially if your the character with no really good weapons. I'm not sure if the feat PYRO still exists in 3.5 but it was good with alchemists fire as it alowed you to deal more damage. and yes, acid bypasses hardness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ishpu 05-19-06, 08:06 AM	i don't understand what's so great about alchemist fire and acid flasks, they don't seem all that great to me, i must be missing something.
Leilond 05-19-06, 08:14 AM	They deal "energy damage" and for this reason they pass all DR except for DR/- When you face a monster with a particular DR that your weapon cannot pass, it is good to have some flasks of acid and alchemical fire. They're also very good against steel, because the steel hardness (10) cannot be applied against acid and sometimes it's very good to "destroy" some steel without making any noise
Aireon_Halatirno 05-19-06, 08:17 AM	Well, let me share with you an excerpt from my current campaign. We have a Ranger(focused on ranged attacks with 0 arrows left), a bard(focused on ranged attacks with 2 arrows left), a low level Wizard with 0 spells left, a Cleric with no armor(and 1 heal minor wounds), and me, the fighter with 3 hit points left battling an Ogre Zombie, as well as a half-orc mage. Now, I had previously dealt a good deal of damage to that Ogre Zombie, but he did the same to me. I was also afflicted with contagion from the Mage, but saved one of my saving throws, but was still suffering. I could not just engage the zombie again, and with so few skilled combatants, we had very few options. However, I had 3 flasks of Alchemists fire. I hit the Ogre with one, and ended up burning him to death with it over two rounds and the Half-Orc was slain by our Bard. Moral of the story, Alchemist's fire = good in a pinch.
ishpu 05-19-06, 08:21 AM	i'm so dumb, i just realized that it does constant damage, not just initial damage, thanks for the scenario.
Raven Dark 05-19-06, 12:07 PM	They deal "energy damage" and for this reason they pass all DR except for DR/- You are wrong in this, energy damage bypasses ALL forms of DR, even DR/-. They're also very good against steel, because the steel hardness (10) cannot be applied against acid and sometimes it's very good to "destroy" some steel without making any noise Alchemist Fire versus steel isn't getting you anywhere fast (1d6 / 2 for hardness = 3 at most; - 10 more for hardness = 0 damage every time) Acid flasks suck too. It's damage potential isn't cut in half like fire, but it doesn't ignore hardness either. 1d6 - 10 = 0 every time.
Zherog 05-19-06, 12:22 PM	Two things that make flasks of alchemist's fire or acid really good: 1) They attack a creature's touch AC rather than their regular AC. 2) You can apply sneak attack damage.
goawayugh 05-19-06, 02:00 PM	hydra
Evil Wizard 05-19-06, 02:02 PM	In a game my brother was in, his ranger liked to make what he called "boom bags". Essentially, ten or so bottles of alchemist's fire in a sack that he'd hurl or drop on people. Rather pricey, but quite the spectacle for a poor man's fireball.
Finarin Panjoro 05-19-06, 03:08 PM	Also very handy if you are up against swarms at low levels. Swarms are usually immune to weapon damage, but take +50% from splash weapons. They're also outstanding back up weapons for low level wiz/sor since they attack touch AC rather than full AC.
TheFallenWriter 05-19-06, 04:30 PM	Just to correct the ignorant who said acid does not ignore hardness, it does. Seeing as it reacts MAINLY to metal and eats it away faster and much worse than rust, it ignores all hardness even against wood. So please, next time you say something, do us all a favor and look it up before you do. ~The Fallen
chitzk0i 05-19-06, 04:31 PM	Acid flasks suck too. It's damage potential isn't cut in half like fire, but it doesn't ignore hardness either. 1d6 - 10 = 0 every time. Check the rules for hardness. <http://d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness> Energy Attacks Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. Acid does full damage to objects. Not much damage, but still full damage.
Moribund 05-19-06, 06:39 PM	Acid and sonic attacks don't ignore hardness unless the spell or ability specifically states that it does. Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to objects, and thus would deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever damage a Melf’s acid arrow spell deals to the animated table in your example.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-19-06, 06:48 PM	We'll just ignore the obvious question as to how hardness can apply to being dissolved chemically...
Raven Dark 05-19-06, 06:56 PM	We'll just ignore the obvious question as to how hardness can apply to being dissolved chemically... Actually in real life there are various metals and materials that take much longer periods of time for acid to eat through them or are outright immune to acid. This is reflected in D&D in the form of Hardness. It may be severely abstracted to say the least, but that is the way it works nonetheless. :cool: I knew I was right from the beginning and would have quoted the FAQ on the matter had someone not beaten me to it. Thanks Moribund.
ManTimeForgot 05-19-06, 07:15 PM	By the rules hardness does apply to acid and sonic attacks unless it states otherwise in the effect. But to those of you who say this is a reasonable abstraction of what occurs in real life I say bullocks. Gold is a heck of a lot softer than steel and less hard than iron. It weighs a good deal more but so what. Gold is soft, but it resists acidic breakdown quite readily. Long story short hardness has nothing to do with acid resistance. Acid cuts through steel just as readily as it does through paper. The only issue with paper is that it is almost certainly less dense than steel, and acid works on a 1-1 molar destruction ratio (1 mole of acid destroys one mole of material, effectively; obviously impure acids and imperfect acid transference can result in a less than perfect ratio, but in the theoretical its correct). MTF
ClementWillowbreaker 05-19-06, 07:22 PM	The FAQ is just as good as consulting chicken bones. The Adventuring chapter is very unclear in its language- not mentioning hardness might be an oversight, instead of a deliberate choice. Although "just as they do to creatures" is good evidence- it says to ignore this stuff following about objects (the only things with hardness). Also note that down the page there is the Vunerability rule- DMs can ignore hardness and energy-reduction if the item is weak to the energy. Paper and cloth doesn't half damage or get to apply its low-hardness to fire. Acid etching straight through steel is also an option.
Nom 05-20-06, 11:25 PM	Two things that make flasks of alchemist's fire or acid really good: 1) They attack a creature's touch AC rather than their regular AC. 2) You can apply sneak attack damage.I would rule that you can't sneak attack with a splash weapon, on the simple basis that the actual projectile doesn't deal any damage. The damage is dealt by a secondary effect, namely the contents of the projectile covering the target and anything nearby. A similar example: a flaming ping-pong ball would still do +1d6 flaming damage, but it's actually 0 + 1d6 fire. The +1d6 is bonus elemental damage and thus not subject to crits, sneak attack, or similar effects.
MingThing 05-21-06, 01:00 AM	By the rules hardness does apply to acid and sonic attacks unless it states otherwise in the effect. But to those of you who say this is a reasonable abstraction of what occurs in real life I say bullocks. Gold is a heck of a lot softer than steel and less hard than iron. It weighs a good deal more but so what. Gold is soft, but it resists acidic breakdown quite readily. Long story short hardness has nothing to do with acid resistance. Acid cuts through steel just as readily as it does through paper. The only issue with paper is that it is almost certainly less dense than steel, and acid works on a 1-1 molar destruction ratio (1 mole of acid destroys one mole of material, effectively; obviously impure acids and imperfect acid transference can result in a less than perfect ratio, but in the theoretical its correct). MTF Ahem sagely voice sulfuric acid, SO4H2 has potential to release 2 H atoms, and thus work with a 1-2 ratio. :P
GhostStepper 05-21-06, 01:06 AM	no has mentioned the real life example of putting acid in a glass vial...it eats away at metal but not glass; guess normal rules for hardness are out the window. In printing class we had a big ol' plastic vat full of hydrocloric acid. It didnt eat the soft plastic away but sure bit through brass and copper. Just goes to show you that the lovely, simplified world of D&D doesnt always have much to do with real life. And i second the the previous comment on swarms. How else can a fighter damage a swarm?
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-21-06, 01:28 AM	I would rule that you can't sneak attack with a splash weapon, on the simple basis that the actual projectile doesn't deal any damage. The damage is dealt by a secondary effect, namely the contents of the projectile covering the target and anything nearby. A similar example: a flaming ping-pong ball would still do +1d6 flaming damage, but it's actually 0 + 1d6 fire. The +1d6 is bonus elemental damage and thus not subject to crits, sneak attack, or similar effects. You don't think you can crit with an explosion of glass shards and napalm? Singe your arm, then contemplate setting your head on fire and you'll get it.
Unsidhe 05-21-06, 12:30 PM	i'm so dumb, i just realized that it does constant damage, not just initial damage, thanks for the scenario. They catch on fire if they they fail a DC15 Reflex check, the fire doing 1d6 points of fire dmage a round.
ManTimeForgot 05-21-06, 12:50 PM	Ahem sagely voice sulfuric acid, SO4H2 has potential to release 2 H atoms, and thus work with a 1-2 ratio. :P Ahem sagely voice Obviously you have no real conception of how acid will be used in real life. Acid is notoriously difficult to use outside of a few narrowly constrained commercial circumstances. Yes, sulfuric acid can potentially release 2 hydrogen atoms (it won't ever do that; all empirical evidence supports me here) and thus you can get better than a 1-1 ratio, but so what? You aren't undermining my argument what-so-ever. You still need roughly the same amount or more in terms of mass of acid as you do substance. Acid can and does ignore the structural qualities of the substance its eating through, but it always does so at the same rate. If you want to eat through a kilogram of substance you essentially need a kilogram of pure acid. Yeah, you might be able to improve upon this, but barring the use of those crazy super acids you can't get much better ratios, and something tells me that protonated methane isn't exactly what D&D has in mind when they talk about an "acid." Acid is notoriously inefficient when it comes to getting destroying/cutting through materials. Why would I use a kilogram of acid to punch a hole through a stone wall when all that's needed is a small amount of high explosive or a laser? In terms of D&D, spells are unilaterally more efficient at item destruction than acid even if you make acid into what it really is (always ignores hardness). MTF
Jaeron Dalur 05-21-06, 05:02 PM	One word: Trolls.
dengarbountyhunter 05-21-06, 05:10 PM	Why is there only cones of COLD and FIREballs ? Because a cone of acid or a caustic ball would be too powerful compared to other spells for item destruction. Edit: And, sorry for chemists and scientists who take this very seriously, but whatever this 1-1 or 2-1 molar ratio thing. We're talking D&D, a GAME where creatures that weigth tens of tons can stand up (and some even FLY!), where a sword never goes blunt and where people shoot seven arrows in six seconds.
necrom99 05-21-06, 05:30 PM	but there are Acid balls and Sonic cones....just take the energy substitution feat....then your in for a melty good time! since energy bypasses DR Alchemists fire is always good for a last ditch effort. especially if your the character with no really good weapons. I'm not sure if the feat PYRO still exists in 3.5 but it was good with alchemists fire as it alowed you to deal more damage. and yes, acid bypasses hardness.