Alignment restrictions on poison use? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment restrictions on poison use? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lint trap
05-07-05, 01:10 PM Are there any hard-and-fast rules that restrict certain alignments from using poison, or is it judged on a case-by-case basis?

It always bugged me that, in 2nd edition, I couldn't use a non-lethal poison as a good character, so I guess I'd welcome the change. On the other hand, chaotic good rogues running around with poisoned arrows seems a bit off. Maybe it's just an old hang-up from the past editions.
Santrilla
05-07-05, 01:25 PM Book of Vile Darkness lists poison use as evil, I think. It's not core though. The only core interpretation I know of is that poison is against the Paladin's Code of Conduct.
NeueRegel
05-07-05, 01:27 PM I don't know of any hard-and-fast rules. Assassins get a save bonus against poison, since they are assumed to nick themselves a few times a month and build an immunity, I guess. Which leads back to the old prejudice that it's still "evil", as assassins must be. (Forget visions of 007 and "Her Majesty").

All in all though, it's a pretty moot point; Have you glanced at the poisons list? It's pathetic. I could mix up deadlier concoctions with what I have under the kitchen sink. Game balance and all that...

Ya want instant death dealing? Have your Paladin go buy some Slaying Arrows vs the bad guys. The save DC is usually double any poison's, and it's all legal-like, gaining you pats on the back from the local authorities, the wizards guild makes a few coppers, and you can't nick yourself into early retirement.

Neue
Thanatos02
05-07-05, 01:53 PM The concept of "Evil" poison is a little odd, as many point out from time to time. It's another one of my personal pet-peeves, and even the Book o' Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds contradict each other (and themselves).

Poison, IMHO, isn't really evil. It's not even praticularly chaotic or dishonerable. In a world full of crazy-go-nuts powerful magic and enchantments, the application of poison feels like a poor-man's attempt to soup up his gear.

It's like saying that roasting people alive or electricuting them to death is ok, but applying chemicals to your knife is wrong. Besides, it's not the poison on the blade that bugs people as much as poison in the drink. If someone's trying to shank you, well, you know he's trying to kill you. It's a bit more unlawful to kill someone by poisoning their drink, which prohibits them from even defending themselves.

So, to recap, poisoned weapons are similar to enchantments. Unless enchanting your sword is wrong, and you feel it gives you an unfair advantage, this is probably ok.

Poisoned traps are normal. I mean, they're traps. They're meant to both catch you by surprise and kill or stop you, so there isn't anything more 'evil' or 'chaotic' then usual when using poison in your traps.

Poison during an assassination by arrows, bolt, or knife isn't any more unlawful or evil then just killing them normally. Poison in the drink or food isn't any more evil then killing a person unexpectedly with a knife.

And the evil or lawfulness of killing someone unexpectedly is not a debate I want to get into now - suffice to say "It depends on the situation, and it is a complex ethics debate to which everyone feels different. Argue at your own risk."
lint trap
05-07-05, 02:11 PM Looks like D&D just lost another "categorical imperitive." Even so, I doubt I'll ever get a crack at the Saint template.
Thanatos02
05-07-05, 02:35 PM I fail to understand...
Venom of the Yuan Ti
05-07-05, 03:03 PM There is no CORE referance to poisons being evil. However Paladins must not use them as it comes under DIS-HONOURABLE. That is the scource of the confusion, but there is nothing to stop a LG char using poison IF it is not illegal and IF it is not exesivley painfull.
Iver Gearsham
05-08-05, 04:04 AM I think the intent behind your actions is important like if an evil Mind Bender geared up a bunch of Thralls with fake gear and sent them to be slaughtered by your party and you found out about it later after you killed them all does your alingment change because you killed unarmed defensless people?

Or if a Bounty Hunter slips a sleep/paralizing poision in your food/drink to avoid a huge fight in town were bystanders will get hurt its only Evil if he plans to slit your throught whill your helpless so he can collect on the dead or alive types without all the hassle of keeping you alive for the trip to the Law.
simen_88
05-08-05, 09:27 AM The are no core rules against poison. Most of these rulings are justified by saying that poison makes people suffer too much, but then again, flails aren't evil.
tarkin
05-08-05, 09:46 AM Poison is a very odd situation.

In the real life, the word poison is reserved for deadly things, and 95% of them tend to act very slowly, and most of them are taken orally.

These things are dishonroable to use. The instant deadly poison that kills is highly likely to result in the death of the wrong person. The slow nature of most of them means they are not used in battle, but in assasinations. The fact that they are taken orally means in takes a LOT of deception and trickery to adminsture them to their victim.

Therefore, no lawful and no good people would use what we call poison in real life.

In D&D they co'opted the word and used it for ANY chemical usefull in battle.

Examine the D&D poisons. Most of them are not deadly by themsleves. They all act within a minute, and practically none are oral posions. Unlike the real world "poisons", they are EXTREMELY likely to be used by a lawfull good person.

Consider the following substances, which would be considered poison in game:

Mace
Pepper Spray
Nitrous Oxide
Rufies
Sleeping pills
Sodium Pentathol

But are not generally thought of as Poison in real life (even if a pathologist would call them that.

These substances that the game would call poison, are used by lots of people of all alignments in real life. The Police (how much more lawfull canyou get?) are the biggest purcharsers of Mace and Pepper Spray.

Of the poisons listed in the game, I think the following might be restricted to various alignments.

Black Lotus Extract. quick death, No good (almost certain death within 1 minute, if both saves failed)
All the ingesed ones: Chaotic only (requires deception)
Ungol dust, Burnt othor fumes, Shadow essence: Evil only (permanent damage besides death)
Gilean
05-08-05, 01:27 PM Poison isn't evil. Using poison isn't evil. Get over BoXD.Black Lotus Extract. quick death, No good (almost certain death within 1 minute, if both saves failed)Disintegrate. Instant death, not bad at stopping resurrections. No good character should use this.All the ingesed ones: Chaotic only (requires deception)As poisoning Socrates did. (Was it Socrates?)Ungol dust, Burnt othor fumes, Shadow essence: Evil only (permanent damage besides death)I'm severely missing your point. If someone is killed, does ability drain matter?
Santrilla
05-08-05, 01:33 PM As poisoning Socrates did. (Was it Socrates?)

Yes it was, and describing ancient Athens as a lawful state is another discussion in itself. :P

Giving Socrates hemlock was (kind of) equivalent to the lethal injection in modern times. Argue amongst yourselves about whether the lethal injection is evil or not.
Gilean
05-09-05, 08:06 AM Yes it was, and describing ancient Athens as a lawful state is another discussion in itself. :P

Giving Socrates hemlock was (kind of) equivalent to the lethal injection in modern times. Argue amongst yourselves about whether the lethal injection is evil or not.But certainly it didn't require deception, now did it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lint trap 05-07-05, 01:10 PM	Are there any hard-and-fast rules that restrict certain alignments from using poison, or is it judged on a case-by-case basis? It always bugged me that, in 2nd edition, I couldn't use a non-lethal poison as a good character, so I guess I'd welcome the change. On the other hand, chaotic good rogues running around with poisoned arrows seems a bit off. Maybe it's just an old hang-up from the past editions.
Santrilla 05-07-05, 01:25 PM	Book of Vile Darkness lists poison use as evil, I think. It's not core though. The only core interpretation I know of is that poison is against the Paladin's Code of Conduct.
NeueRegel 05-07-05, 01:27 PM	I don't know of any hard-and-fast rules. Assassins get a save bonus against poison, since they are assumed to nick themselves a few times a month and build an immunity, I guess. Which leads back to the old prejudice that it's still "evil", as assassins must be. (Forget visions of 007 and "Her Majesty"). All in all though, it's a pretty moot point; Have you glanced at the poisons list? It's pathetic. I could mix up deadlier concoctions with what I have under the kitchen sink. Game balance and all that... Ya want instant death dealing? Have your Paladin go buy some Slaying Arrows vs the bad guys. The save DC is usually double any poison's, and it's all legal-like, gaining you pats on the back from the local authorities, the wizards guild makes a few coppers, and you can't nick yourself into early retirement. Neue
Thanatos02 05-07-05, 01:53 PM	The concept of "Evil" poison is a little odd, as many point out from time to time. It's another one of my personal pet-peeves, and even the Book o' Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds contradict each other (and themselves). Poison, IMHO, isn't really evil. It's not even praticularly chaotic or dishonerable. In a world full of crazy-go-nuts powerful magic and enchantments, the application of poison feels like a poor-man's attempt to soup up his gear. It's like saying that roasting people alive or electricuting them to death is ok, but applying chemicals to your knife is wrong. Besides, it's not the poison on the blade that bugs people as much as poison in the drink. If someone's trying to shank you, well, you know he's trying to kill you. It's a bit more unlawful to kill someone by poisoning their drink, which prohibits them from even defending themselves. So, to recap, poisoned weapons are similar to enchantments. Unless enchanting your sword is wrong, and you feel it gives you an unfair advantage, this is probably ok. Poisoned traps are normal. I mean, they're traps. They're meant to both catch you by surprise and kill or stop you, so there isn't anything more 'evil' or 'chaotic' then usual when using poison in your traps. Poison during an assassination by arrows, bolt, or knife isn't any more unlawful or evil then just killing them normally. Poison in the drink or food isn't any more evil then killing a person unexpectedly with a knife. And the evil or lawfulness of killing someone unexpectedly is not a debate I want to get into now - suffice to say "It depends on the situation, and it is a complex ethics debate to which everyone feels different. Argue at your own risk."
lint trap 05-07-05, 02:11 PM	Looks like D&D just lost another "categorical imperitive." Even so, I doubt I'll ever get a crack at the Saint template.
Thanatos02 05-07-05, 02:35 PM	I fail to understand...
Venom of the Yuan Ti 05-07-05, 03:03 PM	There is no CORE referance to poisons being evil. However Paladins must not use them as it comes under DIS-HONOURABLE. That is the scource of the confusion, but there is nothing to stop a LG char using poison IF it is not illegal and IF it is not exesivley painfull.
Iver Gearsham 05-08-05, 04:04 AM	I think the intent behind your actions is important like if an evil Mind Bender geared up a bunch of Thralls with fake gear and sent them to be slaughtered by your party and you found out about it later after you killed them all does your alingment change because you killed unarmed defensless people? Or if a Bounty Hunter slips a sleep/paralizing poision in your food/drink to avoid a huge fight in town were bystanders will get hurt its only Evil if he plans to slit your throught whill your helpless so he can collect on the dead or alive types without all the hassle of keeping you alive for the trip to the Law.
simen_88 05-08-05, 09:27 AM	The are no core rules against poison. Most of these rulings are justified by saying that poison makes people suffer too much, but then again, flails aren't evil.
tarkin 05-08-05, 09:46 AM	Poison is a very odd situation. In the real life, the word poison is reserved for deadly things, and 95% of them tend to act very slowly, and most of them are taken orally. These things are dishonroable to use. The instant deadly poison that kills is highly likely to result in the death of the wrong person. The slow nature of most of them means they are not used in battle, but in assasinations. The fact that they are taken orally means in takes a LOT of deception and trickery to adminsture them to their victim. Therefore, no lawful and no good people would use what we call poison in real life. In D&D they co'opted the word and used it for ANY chemical usefull in battle. Examine the D&D poisons. Most of them are not deadly by themsleves. They all act within a minute, and practically none are oral posions. Unlike the real world "poisons", they are EXTREMELY likely to be used by a lawfull good person. Consider the following substances, which would be considered poison in game: Mace Pepper Spray Nitrous Oxide Rufies Sleeping pills Sodium Pentathol But are not generally thought of as Poison in real life (even if a pathologist would call them that. These substances that the game would call poison, are used by lots of people of all alignments in real life. The Police (how much more lawfull canyou get?) are the biggest purcharsers of Mace and Pepper Spray. Of the poisons listed in the game, I think the following might be restricted to various alignments. Black Lotus Extract. quick death, No good (almost certain death within 1 minute, if both saves failed) All the ingesed ones: Chaotic only (requires deception) Ungol dust, Burnt othor fumes, Shadow essence: Evil only (permanent damage besides death)
Gilean 05-08-05, 01:27 PM	Poison isn't evil. Using poison isn't evil. Get over BoXD.Black Lotus Extract. quick death, No good (almost certain death within 1 minute, if both saves failed)Disintegrate. Instant death, not bad at stopping resurrections. No good character should use this.All the ingesed ones: Chaotic only (requires deception)As poisoning Socrates did. (Was it Socrates?)Ungol dust, Burnt othor fumes, Shadow essence: Evil only (permanent damage besides death)I'm severely missing your point. If someone is killed, does ability drain matter?
Santrilla 05-08-05, 01:33 PM	As poisoning Socrates did. (Was it Socrates?) Yes it was, and describing ancient Athens as a lawful state is another discussion in itself. :P Giving Socrates hemlock was (kind of) equivalent to the lethal injection in modern times. Argue amongst yourselves about whether the lethal injection is evil or not.
Gilean 05-09-05, 08:06 AM	Yes it was, and describing ancient Athens as a lawful state is another discussion in itself. :P Giving Socrates hemlock was (kind of) equivalent to the lethal injection in modern times. Argue amongst yourselves about whether the lethal injection is evil or not.But certainly it didn't require deception, now did it?