All about grappling : Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

All about grappling : Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nicodemus
03-23-05, 11:06 AM Next session, are group is starting with the City of the Spider Queen campaign in which I will play a draegloth. The DM and I decided the basic Draegloth needed some boosting so we added some abilities including improved grab, pounce and rake attacks (although I get them as I level, not all at once). Up until now we were playing 3.25 (3.0 with some 3.5 modifications such as haste and damage reduction) but now we are going for almost completely 3.5. Yay !

Since my draegloth character is a good grappler (large, multible limbs, high strength), and after reading all four 'All about Grappling' articles, I was wondering if I could get some more info about (monster) grappling.

My draegloth has +6 bab and str 30 which gives him a +22 grapple bonus : +6 bab, +10 str, +4 size and +2 misc for having two extra limbs (DM's ruling. Is there any official ruling on having more than two arms?). When I charge, with pounce, I get to make a full attack. If I understand it correctly I can do the following :

a) attempt to grapple, risking an AoO, two times (for having +6/+1 bab) or
b) attempt to claw/claw/bite and if I hit with the claw attacks make a grapple check, risking no AoO, thanks to Improved Grab.

What are the modifiers for each grapple check ?

a) +22/+22 or +22/+17 ?
b) +22 ?

If multiple grapple checks use lesser bab bonuses and this are opposing checks, does your opponent also use lesser bab bonuses? Otherwise this is not realy fair, is it?

If I understand the articles 'All about Grappling', another possibilty is valid :

c) attempt to grapple using the natural attack routine, risking an AoO for +22/+22/+20 (+20 since I have multiattack)

How much of this is correct? I hope someone can help me ...
Elendur
03-23-05, 12:04 PM First off, Skip's article is doing some interpretation that I don't necessarily agree with. He's covering some grey areas, so you need to get with your DM and decide what's best.

I don't know the particulars of the critter you are playing, but improved grab usually works with your primary natural attack, either claws or bite but not both.

The rules don't say that iterative attacks reduce your grapple checks, though they would reduce the attack bonus to initiate the grapple.

So to your questions, I'd rule you can do both a) and b), your grapple check is always the same, but your touch attack to grab goes down on the second iterative attack. I'd rule that you can't use your natural attack routine to grapple, that's already covered by the improved grab ability.

This is just my opinion, which obviously is different than Skip's.
kjenks
03-23-05, 01:56 PM Next session, are group is starting with the City of the Spider Queen campaign in which I will play a draegloth. The DM and I decided the basic Draegloth needed some boosting so we added some abilities including improved grab, pounce and rake attacks (although I get them as I level, not all at once). Up until now we were playing 3.25 (3.0 with some 3.5 modifications such as haste and damage reduction) but now we are going for almost completely 3.5. Yay !

Since my draegloth character is a good grappler (large, multible limbs, high strength), and after reading all four 'All about Grappling' articles, I was wondering if I could get some more info about (monster) grappling.

My draegloth has +6 bab and str 30 which gives him a +22 grapple bonus : +6 bab, +10 str, +4 size and +2 misc for having two extra limbs (DM's ruling. Is there any official ruling on having more than two arms?).

No, that's a house rule.

When I charge, with pounce, I get to make a full attack. If I understand it correctly I can do the following :

a) attempt to grapple, risking an AoO, two times (for having +6/+1 bab) or
b) attempt to claw/claw/bite and if I hit with the claw attacks make a grapple check, risking no AoO, thanks to Improved Grab.

The correct answer is: You can do either a or b.

But there's a wierdness to the Improved Grab that you should know about. Despite Skip's imaginative rule in the Rules of the Game/All About Grapple articles, you can't use two (or more) weapons while grappling. So if you choose b, you should bite/claw/claw instead of claw/claw/bite -- because once you establish a grapple with your claw/Improved Grab, you can't make your bite attack. So take your bite (usually a secondary natural weapon) first.

What are the modifiers for each grapple check ?

a) +22/+22 or +22/+17 ?
b) +22 ?

If you make two regular grapple attacks as an iterative attack due to your +6 BAB, the correct answer is a. (But see below for the exact number.)

If you use Improved Grab, the correct answer is b.

As for the exact number, it depends on how much your DM thinks a grapple check is like a melee attack roll.

If your DM thinks a grapple check is just like a melee attack roll except for the special size modifier mentioned in the PH, you should be able to add +2 from charging to your grapple checks during a pounce.

If multiple grapple checks use lesser bab bonuses and this are opposing checks, does your opponent also use lesser bab bonuses? Otherwise this is not realy fair, is it?

No, the defender does not use lesser BAB bonus, even though this seems like it's unfair.

Let's pretend you're grappling a hill giant (grapple check +20) and you use your two grapple actions to Damage Your Opponent (inflicting 1d4+10 nonlethal damage). Your first normal grapple attack would be at +22 opposed by the hill giant at +20, and your second would be at +17 opposed by the hill giant at +20. This is kinda like iterative weapon attacks, where the first one has a higher bonus than the second one and a better chance of success.

If I understand the articles 'All about Grappling', another possibilty is valid :

c) attempt to grapple using the natural attack routine, risking an AoO for +22/+22/+20 (+20 since I have multiattack)

How much of this is correct?

Sadly, Skip got this part wrong in his article. His ruling in the article contradicts the PH rules for grappling, the MM description of the Rake ability and Skip's own ruling in the old 3e FAQ. You do not get one grapple attack for each natural weapon. It just works like the PH says.
Elendur
03-23-05, 06:00 PM kjenks is right, you do use the lesser BAB for iterative grapple checks. This does power down grapple a bit, but is probably necessary.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicodemus 03-23-05, 11:06 AM	Next session, are group is starting with the City of the Spider Queen campaign in which I will play a draegloth. The DM and I decided the basic Draegloth needed some boosting so we added some abilities including improved grab, pounce and rake attacks (although I get them as I level, not all at once). Up until now we were playing 3.25 (3.0 with some 3.5 modifications such as haste and damage reduction) but now we are going for almost completely 3.5. Yay ! Since my draegloth character is a good grappler (large, multible limbs, high strength), and after reading all four 'All about Grappling' articles, I was wondering if I could get some more info about (monster) grappling. My draegloth has +6 bab and str 30 which gives him a +22 grapple bonus : +6 bab, +10 str, +4 size and +2 misc for having two extra limbs (DM's ruling. Is there any official ruling on having more than two arms?). When I charge, with pounce, I get to make a full attack. If I understand it correctly I can do the following : a) attempt to grapple, risking an AoO, two times (for having +6/+1 bab) or b) attempt to claw/claw/bite and if I hit with the claw attacks make a grapple check, risking no AoO, thanks to Improved Grab. What are the modifiers for each grapple check ? a) +22/+22 or +22/+17 ? b) +22 ? If multiple grapple checks use lesser bab bonuses and this are opposing checks, does your opponent also use lesser bab bonuses? Otherwise this is not realy fair, is it? If I understand the articles 'All about Grappling', another possibilty is valid : c) attempt to grapple using the natural attack routine, risking an AoO for +22/+22/+20 (+20 since I have multiattack) How much of this is correct? I hope someone can help me ...
Elendur 03-23-05, 12:04 PM	First off, Skip's article is doing some interpretation that I don't necessarily agree with. He's covering some grey areas, so you need to get with your DM and decide what's best. I don't know the particulars of the critter you are playing, but improved grab usually works with your primary natural attack, either claws or bite but not both. The rules don't say that iterative attacks reduce your grapple checks, though they would reduce the attack bonus to initiate the grapple. So to your questions, I'd rule you can do both a) and b), your grapple check is always the same, but your touch attack to grab goes down on the second iterative attack. I'd rule that you can't use your natural attack routine to grapple, that's already covered by the improved grab ability. This is just my opinion, which obviously is different than Skip's.
kjenks 03-23-05, 01:56 PM	Next session, are group is starting with the City of the Spider Queen campaign in which I will play a draegloth. The DM and I decided the basic Draegloth needed some boosting so we added some abilities including improved grab, pounce and rake attacks (although I get them as I level, not all at once). Up until now we were playing 3.25 (3.0 with some 3.5 modifications such as haste and damage reduction) but now we are going for almost completely 3.5. Yay ! Since my draegloth character is a good grappler (large, multible limbs, high strength), and after reading all four 'All about Grappling' articles, I was wondering if I could get some more info about (monster) grappling. My draegloth has +6 bab and str 30 which gives him a +22 grapple bonus : +6 bab, +10 str, +4 size and +2 misc for having two extra limbs (DM's ruling. Is there any official ruling on having more than two arms?). No, that's a house rule. When I charge, with pounce, I get to make a full attack. If I understand it correctly I can do the following : a) attempt to grapple, risking an AoO, two times (for having +6/+1 bab) or b) attempt to claw/claw/bite and if I hit with the claw attacks make a grapple check, risking no AoO, thanks to Improved Grab. The correct answer is: You can do either a or b. But there's a wierdness to the Improved Grab that you should know about. Despite Skip's imaginative rule in the Rules of the Game/All About Grapple articles, you can't use two (or more) weapons while grappling. So if you choose b, you should bite/claw/claw instead of claw/claw/bite -- because once you establish a grapple with your claw/Improved Grab, you can't make your bite attack. So take your bite (usually a secondary natural weapon) first. What are the modifiers for each grapple check ? a) +22/+22 or +22/+17 ? b) +22 ? If you make two regular grapple attacks as an iterative attack due to your +6 BAB, the correct answer is a. (But see below for the exact number.) If you use Improved Grab, the correct answer is b. As for the exact number, it depends on how much your DM thinks a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. If your DM thinks a grapple check is just like a melee attack roll except for the special size modifier mentioned in the PH, you should be able to add +2 from charging to your grapple checks during a pounce. If multiple grapple checks use lesser bab bonuses and this are opposing checks, does your opponent also use lesser bab bonuses? Otherwise this is not realy fair, is it? No, the defender does not use lesser BAB bonus, even though this seems like it's unfair. Let's pretend you're grappling a hill giant (grapple check +20) and you use your two grapple actions to Damage Your Opponent (inflicting 1d4+10 nonlethal damage). Your first normal grapple attack would be at +22 opposed by the hill giant at +20, and your second would be at +17 opposed by the hill giant at +20. This is kinda like iterative weapon attacks, where the first one has a higher bonus than the second one and a better chance of success. If I understand the articles 'All about Grappling', another possibilty is valid : c) attempt to grapple using the natural attack routine, risking an AoO for +22/+22/+20 (+20 since I have multiattack) How much of this is correct? Sadly, Skip got this part wrong in his article. His ruling in the article contradicts the PH rules for grappling, the MM description of the Rake ability and Skip's own ruling in the old 3e FAQ. You do not get one grapple attack for each natural weapon. It just works like the PH says.
Elendur 03-23-05, 06:00 PM	kjenks is right, you do use the lesser BAB for iterative grapple checks. This does power down grapple a bit, but is probably necessary.