All Women's Armor Half-Off! [Archive] - Wizards Community

All Women's Armor Half-Off! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grunj
04-28-06, 07:21 PM What did you think I meant?

But seriously, the topic of this thread is the loot disposal rule in the PHB that says all non-trade goods are sold for one half of their normal retail value.

Now, I can see where this makes sense when it comes to mundane items. Who wants to pay full price for a patched and bloodstained breastplate?

But what about magic items? Magic armor and weapons can be upgraded at the cost of the difference between the new bonus and the old bonus. They are effectively "new" as far as appearance goes, and there will always be a strong demand. An enchanter can buy a +1 sword for 2,350 gold, enchant it to +2, sell it for 8,350 gold, and still make a 3,000 gp profit. There is no reason for someone to sell a +1 sword for 1,175 gold in a free market system.

I could even see an enterprising Mystic Theurge offering to serve as an intermediary between buyer and seller for a nominal fee. The Theurge casts Identify on the object and Discern Lies on the seller to determine exactly what it is and whether it is stolen. Buyers and sellers know to congregate at the shop of the Theurge to look for each other. Sort of a D&D-Bay.
Pandaemoni
04-28-06, 07:40 PM The reason you sell for half price is not "wear and tear" (so far as I know, neither mundane equipment *nor* magical equipment suffers ordinary wear and tear...only sundering effects them). Even if ordinary equipment deteriorated, there's no rule that said magic items wouldn't suffer the same fate, nor that adding a +1 to an existing magic sword would repair that sort of damage. In short, in D&D, for simplicity's sake, the effects of natural wear and tear are ignored except in certain cases (using an arrow destroys it, for example).

The reason characters sell for 50% of the market price is: simplified economics. Player characters are not merchants by and large. They have no permanent shops nor regular clientele, nor even word of mouth directing customers their way. Professional merchants are in the business of business and want to earn money. As such they need to sell items they buy from players at a reasonable markup. For simplicities sake (again) the rules say that the markup is always 100% and defines the "market price" as the price which a professional merchant would get from the public at large. In essence, players sell at "wholesale" prices and the professional merchants can use their positions to sell at "retail."

A DM is free to alter these simplified rules, and many have. More than one DM I know allows players to use their Diplomacy or Bluff skills (or natural charisma) to increase the price player's get above the 50% norm (one Forgotten Realms regional feat allows you to get 75% as a base sales price). That said, the game is not focused on the mercantile aspect of the game, so the rules in that regard are at their most simplified.
Art_Tillary
04-28-06, 08:29 PM The 50% rule also fits with parties that want to dump their loot immediately. If they want to spend a few weeks in town doing nothing but setting up a business then they can get 100%. Definately not worth it for most parties.

I am going along similar lines for magic items. Magic items are sold almost only at auction by only a couple of auction houses. Sort of like Christy's instead of E-Bay. The party can get 50% immediately, or wait 6 months for the actual auction and get 90% to 105% of DMG value. The delay is to allow the auction house to advertise the items and bidders to get to word to agents as to what to pay for such and such item.

AT
Grunj
04-28-06, 08:59 PM That makes sense for Wondrous items that cannot be further enchanted. But for items that can be further enchanted an artificer would want to purchase those items because they can be enchanted to the next "level" at an XP cost of only the difference between the levels. Were they to enchant it from scratch, they would pay the full XP cost. But the new selling price remains the same, either way.

Therefore, it is in the best interest of the artificer to buy magic items that they can build up. Because of that, I can see those items selling quickly at full retail in large cities.
IrishRover
04-28-06, 10:36 PM One thing I'm preparing to do is modify the selling price based on likely demand. A +5 anarchic holy greatsowrd is tremendously valuable--but hard to find a buyer for. It will likely sell for less than half book price. If you want more, you need to take time to find a buyer--ikely lots of time.

A +1 longsword will have a fast turnaround. comparitively, and will likely sell for close to 75%

Just my 2 cp worth...
Art_Tillary
04-28-06, 10:44 PM That makes sense for Wondrous items that cannot be further enchanted. But for items that can be further enchanted an artificer would want to purchase those items because they can be enchanted to the next "level" at an XP cost of only the difference between the levels. Were they to enchant it from scratch, they would pay the full XP cost. But the new selling price remains the same, either way.

Therefore, it is in the best interest of the artificer to buy magic items that they can build up. Because of that, I can see those items selling quickly at full retail in large cities.

That's a really good point. It keeps the market moving with lower level mages making items for higher level mages to improve.

AT
ClementWillowbreaker
04-28-06, 10:50 PM I vaguely recall the DMGII having rules for setting up businesses, which might be applicable if you really want to get more profit out of your loot. Your other option would be to use Profession (merchant) checks (taking a week) and describe it as moving along the sales of your treasure. Or better yet, use Leadership to get dozens of NPC experts to do it for you.
Chrono Nexus
04-28-06, 10:59 PM Businesses are a waste of valuable in-game time. Even the most profitable types of businesses pay peanuts (at least in the DMGII).
I have always allowed characters to sell loot at a mark up based on their wisdom and charisma scores. A 3% cumulative increase in the selling price of a good for each +1 modifier a character has in her wisdom and charisma scores.
BW0222
04-28-06, 11:42 PM Grunj,

>Now, I can see where this makes sense when it comes to mundane items.
>Who wants to pay full price for a patched and bloodstained breastplate?

>But what about magic items? Magic armor and weapons can be upgraded at
>the cost of the difference between the new bonus and the old bonus. They
>are effectively "new" as far as appearance goes, and there will always be a
>strong demand. An enchanter can buy a +1 sword for 2,350 gold, enchant it
>to +2, sell it for 8,350 gold, and still make a 3,000 gp profit. There is no
>reason for someone to sell a +1 sword for 1,175 gold in a free market
>system.

A simple house in the D&D universe costs about 5,000gp. The average person earns 1sp/day. A 2,315gp longsword is worth about the equivalent of $100,000 or so. Say that of a 30' powerboat, a well known painting, or absolute top quality jewlery.

Now, if you wanted to sell a Bayliner today, you would put weekly adds in the newspaper. It would likely take you 1-3 months to get that price. And of course you would likely be reaching a target audience of hundreds of thousands in a western city where the average income is say $50,000/year. However, you would still have to take months meeting with a half-dozen or so folks, provide tours, have their experts (mechanics) check out the time, likely want to ensure that it wasn't stollen, certainly want to see it working, etc.

Worse, in D&D you are limiting yourself to a much smaller generally empoverished population working on the barter system. So, assume that you are trying to sell a Bayliner in a 3rd-world country in a city of 100,000 or so. ... The price of a Bayliner is so far above most of even the professional population could afford it isn't funny. Your target audience goes from 80% of the population who could afford a boat, to say 1%. Worse, even the wealthy folks are going to want to barter -- you can have my house, milk trucks, shares in my cement business, etc. Getting cash would require massive amounts of time as even the rich would need wait until they sell off such assests - running into the same problems as you.

Honestly, if you wanted to be rid of a Bayliner (even in a city of millions with standards of living ten times that of the D&D population) within a few days, about the only thing you could do is drop the price to the point some business or super-wealthy individual says... "Gee... I can buy it today, and sell it in a few months for double." and then moves heaven and earth to come out with the money. In the D&D universe, they would then begin the aweful task of sending out agents across the globe and finding the handful of individuals who would actually buy it, do the sales presentations, take folks out of trips, arrange financing, prove it was in working condition, etc., etc.
Subedei
04-29-06, 02:17 AM Businesses are a waste of valuable in-game time. Even the most profitable types of businesses pay peanuts (at least in the DMGII).
I have always allowed characters to sell loot at a mark up based on their wisdom and charisma scores. A 3% cumulative increase in the selling price of a good for each +1 modifier a character has in her wisdom and charisma scores.

That's not true at all, it just depends on the time scale of your campaign. If your average story arc takes up a month of ingame time then no, you're not going to make much.

If, however, the average is more like 6-10 months on the road and occassionally up to a few years spent settling down, leading a quiet life and all that before some other earth shattering event occurs then you'll have time for those shops to become very, VERY profitable.
RavenDrake
04-29-06, 07:07 PM One of my players (Bard/Expert[Yes, Expert]) with Leadership set up a chain of Adventurer oriented Pawn and Trade shops with his followers operaing the various chains. By using magical message transmission and item teleportation they were able to move items to places where they would do the most good (Fire energized weapons went to the shop up north near the frost salamander nests, magical arrows and bows were given priority in the shop in the Elven capitol, etc) They bought a higher price than the normal shops(generally 60%, but would barter and trade for up to 75% value) and sold cheaper(generally 85-90% of normal market value) making up the difference in volume of sales, especially as the shops became more popular with other adventurers...

Not to mention, the bard could get his hands on practially anything he wanted if he needed a magic item... and he was raking in gold hand over fist. One of the more successful uses of Leadership I've ever seen.
Elthbert
04-30-06, 02:47 AM Businesses are a waste of valuable in-game time. Even the most profitable types of businesses pay peanuts (at least in the DMGII).
I have always allowed characters to sell loot at a mark up based on their wisdom and charisma scores. A 3% cumulative increase in the selling price of a good for each +1 modifier a character has in her wisdom and charisma scores.
Businesses are certianly not a waste of game time, assuming they have a purpose in the game beyond making money; that might in fact be a use for them but shouldn't be the primary purpose for an adventurer to have them.

I had a Character in a Greyhawk campaign some time back who baught a tavern, the DM and I spent sometime figuring out how much the thing should produce in profit. Even after I hired my manager and payed him double normal salary--- I wanted a happy manager since I was adventuring-- I still maid over 10,000 sp a year thats 1000, gp which is alot of money for simply investing some cash, but of course that wasn't that much money from an adventurers point of view, but I didn't buy it for that I bought it to establish a presence in grey hawk and give me standing beyond that of an adventurer--- in other wards for roleplaying purposes. It was certianly not a waste.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grunj 04-28-06, 07:21 PM	What did you think I meant? But seriously, the topic of this thread is the loot disposal rule in the PHB that says all non-trade goods are sold for one half of their normal retail value. Now, I can see where this makes sense when it comes to mundane items. Who wants to pay full price for a patched and bloodstained breastplate? But what about magic items? Magic armor and weapons can be upgraded at the cost of the difference between the new bonus and the old bonus. They are effectively "new" as far as appearance goes, and there will always be a strong demand. An enchanter can buy a +1 sword for 2,350 gold, enchant it to +2, sell it for 8,350 gold, and still make a 3,000 gp profit. There is no reason for someone to sell a +1 sword for 1,175 gold in a free market system. I could even see an enterprising Mystic Theurge offering to serve as an intermediary between buyer and seller for a nominal fee. The Theurge casts Identify on the object and Discern Lies on the seller to determine exactly what it is and whether it is stolen. Buyers and sellers know to congregate at the shop of the Theurge to look for each other. Sort of a D&D-Bay.
Pandaemoni 04-28-06, 07:40 PM	The reason you sell for half price is not "wear and tear" (so far as I know, neither mundane equipment nor magical equipment suffers ordinary wear and tear...only sundering effects them). Even if ordinary equipment deteriorated, there's no rule that said magic items wouldn't suffer the same fate, nor that adding a +1 to an existing magic sword would repair that sort of damage. In short, in D&D, for simplicity's sake, the effects of natural wear and tear are ignored except in certain cases (using an arrow destroys it, for example). The reason characters sell for 50% of the market price is: simplified economics. Player characters are not merchants by and large. They have no permanent shops nor regular clientele, nor even word of mouth directing customers their way. Professional merchants are in the business of business and want to earn money. As such they need to sell items they buy from players at a reasonable markup. For simplicities sake (again) the rules say that the markup is always 100% and defines the "market price" as the price which a professional merchant would get from the public at large. In essence, players sell at "wholesale" prices and the professional merchants can use their positions to sell at "retail." A DM is free to alter these simplified rules, and many have. More than one DM I know allows players to use their Diplomacy or Bluff skills (or natural charisma) to increase the price player's get above the 50% norm (one Forgotten Realms regional feat allows you to get 75% as a base sales price). That said, the game is not focused on the mercantile aspect of the game, so the rules in that regard are at their most simplified.
Art_Tillary 04-28-06, 08:29 PM	The 50% rule also fits with parties that want to dump their loot immediately. If they want to spend a few weeks in town doing nothing but setting up a business then they can get 100%. Definately not worth it for most parties. I am going along similar lines for magic items. Magic items are sold almost only at auction by only a couple of auction houses. Sort of like Christy's instead of E-Bay. The party can get 50% immediately, or wait 6 months for the actual auction and get 90% to 105% of DMG value. The delay is to allow the auction house to advertise the items and bidders to get to word to agents as to what to pay for such and such item. AT
Grunj 04-28-06, 08:59 PM	That makes sense for Wondrous items that cannot be further enchanted. But for items that can be further enchanted an artificer would want to purchase those items because they can be enchanted to the next "level" at an XP cost of only the difference between the levels. Were they to enchant it from scratch, they would pay the full XP cost. But the new selling price remains the same, either way. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the artificer to buy magic items that they can build up. Because of that, I can see those items selling quickly at full retail in large cities.
IrishRover 04-28-06, 10:36 PM	One thing I'm preparing to do is modify the selling price based on likely demand. A +5 anarchic holy greatsowrd is tremendously valuable--but hard to find a buyer for. It will likely sell for less than half book price. If you want more, you need to take time to find a buyer--ikely lots of time. A +1 longsword will have a fast turnaround. comparitively, and will likely sell for close to 75% Just my 2 cp worth...
Art_Tillary 04-28-06, 10:44 PM	That makes sense for Wondrous items that cannot be further enchanted. But for items that can be further enchanted an artificer would want to purchase those items because they can be enchanted to the next "level" at an XP cost of only the difference between the levels. Were they to enchant it from scratch, they would pay the full XP cost. But the new selling price remains the same, either way. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the artificer to buy magic items that they can build up. Because of that, I can see those items selling quickly at full retail in large cities. That's a really good point. It keeps the market moving with lower level mages making items for higher level mages to improve. AT
ClementWillowbreaker 04-28-06, 10:50 PM	I vaguely recall the DMGII having rules for setting up businesses, which might be applicable if you really want to get more profit out of your loot. Your other option would be to use Profession (merchant) checks (taking a week) and describe it as moving along the sales of your treasure. Or better yet, use Leadership to get dozens of NPC experts to do it for you.
Chrono Nexus 04-28-06, 10:59 PM	Businesses are a waste of valuable in-game time. Even the most profitable types of businesses pay peanuts (at least in the DMGII). I have always allowed characters to sell loot at a mark up based on their wisdom and charisma scores. A 3% cumulative increase in the selling price of a good for each +1 modifier a character has in her wisdom and charisma scores.
BW0222 04-28-06, 11:42 PM	Grunj, >Now, I can see where this makes sense when it comes to mundane items. >Who wants to pay full price for a patched and bloodstained breastplate? >But what about magic items? Magic armor and weapons can be upgraded at >the cost of the difference between the new bonus and the old bonus. They >are effectively "new" as far as appearance goes, and there will always be a >strong demand. An enchanter can buy a +1 sword for 2,350 gold, enchant it >to +2, sell it for 8,350 gold, and still make a 3,000 gp profit. There is no >reason for someone to sell a +1 sword for 1,175 gold in a free market >system. A simple house in the D&D universe costs about 5,000gp. The average person earns 1sp/day. A 2,315gp longsword is worth about the equivalent of $100,000 or so. Say that of a 30' powerboat, a well known painting, or absolute top quality jewlery. Now, if you wanted to sell a Bayliner today, you would put weekly adds in the newspaper. It would likely take you 1-3 months to get that price. And of course you would likely be reaching a target audience of hundreds of thousands in a western city where the average income is say $50,000/year. However, you would still have to take months meeting with a half-dozen or so folks, provide tours, have their experts (mechanics) check out the time, likely want to ensure that it wasn't stollen, certainly want to see it working, etc. Worse, in D&D you are limiting yourself to a much smaller generally empoverished population working on the barter system. So, assume that you are trying to sell a Bayliner in a 3rd-world country in a city of 100,000 or so. ... The price of a Bayliner is so far above most of even the professional population could afford it isn't funny. Your target audience goes from 80% of the population who could afford a boat, to say 1%. Worse, even the wealthy folks are going to want to barter -- you can have my house, milk trucks, shares in my cement business, etc. Getting cash would require massive amounts of time as even the rich would need wait until they sell off such assests - running into the same problems as you. Honestly, if you wanted to be rid of a Bayliner (even in a city of millions with standards of living ten times that of the D&D population) within a few days, about the only thing you could do is drop the price to the point some business or super-wealthy individual says... "Gee... I can buy it today, and sell it in a few months for double." and then moves heaven and earth to come out with the money. In the D&D universe, they would then begin the aweful task of sending out agents across the globe and finding the handful of individuals who would actually buy it, do the sales presentations, take folks out of trips, arrange financing, prove it was in working condition, etc., etc.
Subedei 04-29-06, 02:17 AM	Businesses are a waste of valuable in-game time. Even the most profitable types of businesses pay peanuts (at least in the DMGII). I have always allowed characters to sell loot at a mark up based on their wisdom and charisma scores. A 3% cumulative increase in the selling price of a good for each +1 modifier a character has in her wisdom and charisma scores. That's not true at all, it just depends on the time scale of your campaign. If your average story arc takes up a month of ingame time then no, you're not going to make much. If, however, the average is more like 6-10 months on the road and occassionally up to a few years spent settling down, leading a quiet life and all that before some other earth shattering event occurs then you'll have time for those shops to become very, VERY profitable.
RavenDrake 04-29-06, 07:07 PM	One of my players (Bard/Expert[Yes, Expert]) with Leadership set up a chain of Adventurer oriented Pawn and Trade shops with his followers operaing the various chains. By using magical message transmission and item teleportation they were able to move items to places where they would do the most good (Fire energized weapons went to the shop up north near the frost salamander nests, magical arrows and bows were given priority in the shop in the Elven capitol, etc) They bought a higher price than the normal shops(generally 60%, but would barter and trade for up to 75% value) and sold cheaper(generally 85-90% of normal market value) making up the difference in volume of sales, especially as the shops became more popular with other adventurers... Not to mention, the bard could get his hands on practially anything he wanted if he needed a magic item... and he was raking in gold hand over fist. One of the more successful uses of Leadership I've ever seen.
Elthbert 04-30-06, 02:47 AM	Businesses are a waste of valuable in-game time. Even the most profitable types of businesses pay peanuts (at least in the DMGII). I have always allowed characters to sell loot at a mark up based on their wisdom and charisma scores. A 3% cumulative increase in the selling price of a good for each +1 modifier a character has in her wisdom and charisma scores. Businesses are certianly not a waste of game time, assuming they have a purpose in the game beyond making money; that might in fact be a use for them but shouldn't be the primary purpose for an adventurer to have them. I had a Character in a Greyhawk campaign some time back who baught a tavern, the DM and I spent sometime figuring out how much the thing should produce in profit. Even after I hired my manager and payed him double normal salary--- I wanted a happy manager since I was adventuring-- I still maid over 10,000 sp a year thats 1000, gp which is alot of money for simply investing some cash, but of course that wasn't that much money from an adventurers point of view, but I didn't buy it for that I bought it to establish a presence in grey hawk and give me standing beyond that of an adventurer--- in other wards for roleplaying purposes. It was certianly not a waste.