Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GothiousRex 07-07-06, 03:19 PM	According to SRD Natural Healing: With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night. If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points. Is it just me or does this not make sense.... example Level 1 Wizard (4hp) from 0 to full health in 2 days of full bed rest Level 1 Fighter (12hp) from 0 to full health in 6 days of full bed rest the Wizard heals faster than the Fighter? What's even better is that a person with low CON heals faster than a person with high CON. Level 1 Fighter Con 20 (15hp) from 0 to full health in 8 days full bed rest Level 1 Fighter Con 3 (6 hp) from 0 to full health in a mere 3 days full bed rest. The system included is completely contrary to common sense. Are there any alternate systems out there?
Dalthbar 07-07-06, 03:33 PM	I've complained about this to my gaming group at length. If you look at percentages, charactes with smaller hit die heal relatively faster than those with larger hit die. A wizard will gain 25% of his HP back each night assuming full HP per die and a zero con modifier (which many wizards will have). A fighter will gain 10% of his HP back assuming full HP per die and a zero con modifier (and most fighters will have a higher con, thus dropping this percentage more!). The natural healing rate in the book is simply insufficient in my opinion. It should clearly have a constitution factor and tie into your hit die. (Con mod * hit die per) night is too much though. A change is in order if you ask me.
Jovknee 07-07-06, 03:33 PM	Maybe add your con bonus (if any) to your nights rest. Usually the healing system isn't a problem as there is usually a cleric healing or a paladin puting his hands on everyone. :ayyyy!:
Dalthbar 07-07-06, 03:39 PM	Maybe add your con bonus (if any) to your nights rest. Usually the healing system isn't a problem as there is usually a cleric healing or a paladin puting his hands on everyone. :ayyyy!: This doesn't address the main concern that lower hit die characters gain back a higher percentage of their hp back. It's just "a bonus for a high con" and masks the underlying problem.
KhalaKyRelai 07-07-06, 03:40 PM	I use 1 per HD + Con mod, but I think something should be done about hit dice, too.
Bulletproof_Condom 07-07-06, 03:53 PM	It's not that the low HP characters heal faster. It's that the high HP characters are getting more beat up. The high HP characters are taking a much larger amount of punishment than the low HP characters. If you do 12 damage to the wizard, he's dead. You need people right there to patch him up, get his heart going, drag him off the field. You do 12 damage to the fighter, he stabs you in the face and takes the week off. Don't think of HP in terms of percentages so much. It creates problems.
Dalthbar 07-07-06, 03:54 PM	The main problem is that hit points are this quasi-real concept that means "a lot of things at the same time" and isn't "a pure measure of the damage you've taken". While it's more math-intensive, why not use something like: You gain 5% plus 1/2 your con modifier and half your character level (round final number down) to this base 5% (treat negative con modifiers as zero). For example: a 10th level fighter with a 18 con and 125 hp recovers: (5 + 2 + 5)% or 12% each night - 15hp. a 10th level wizard with a 13 con and 35 hp recovers: (5 + 0 + 5)% or 10% each night - 3hp What I'm proposing is that the percentage create a RATE of healing for each character and then just calculate what that rate means in hp. My complaint is _not_ that you don't heal fast enough. My complaint is that the rate that people heal is arbitrary and unreasonable. You can have a really healthy wizard that heals faster than a really sick fighter and vice versa. It's the rate that's important.
Jovknee 07-07-06, 04:20 PM	a 10th level wizard with a 13 con and 35 hp recovers: (5 + 0 + 5)% or 10% each night - 3hp. If I were this character I wouldnt want someone to revive me. In fact I'd rather jump off a cliff and take my pathetic d10 that rolled nothing but one's and two's for my hp's. HP's to my understanding is not so much how much damage you take, but how you take the hit. Someone stabbing a wizard for 12 hp's will probably find a vital organ and kill him. Someone stabbing a fighter for 12 hp's will probably only scratch his arm. Basically as you get higher in experience you learn how to move out of the damn way of attacks. Say a 1st level fighter fighter has 12 hp's and gets hit for 10, he just suffered a grievous wound. Now when that fighter is 10th level and say someone performs the same procedure and does 10 hp's well he learned to stay away from the sharp end and in sense didn't affect his as it once did.
GothiousRex 07-07-06, 04:53 PM	Perhaps something like... HV = Total HP of character or 10 whichever is greater Full Day's rest: (2d6 - 5 + Con mod) x 5% x HV = hit points healed (or lost if negative) Night's rest: (1d6 - 3 + Con mod) x 5% x HV = hit points healed (or lost if negative) yes that's right you can lose HP healing (anyone heard of internal bleeding or infection?) and those sickly ones (Con=3) are likely to die or stay sick for a long time. Fighter level 4 (HP 35 Con 12) takes a Full Day's rest and rolls 2d6 getting an 8. 8 - 5 + Con mod (+1) = 4 x 5% x 35 = 7 HP healed Wizard level 1 (HP 3 Con 9) takes a Full Day's rest and rolls 2d6 getting a 4. 4 - 5 + Con mod (-1) = -2 x 5% x 10 = 1 HP lost next day Wizard rests Full Day rolls 2d6 and gets an 11. 11 - 5 + Con mod (-1) = 5 x 5% x 10 = 2 HP healed
Grebo Gibson 07-07-06, 09:35 PM	You gain 5% plus 1/2 your con modifier and half your character level (round final number down) to this base 5% (treat negative con modifiers as zero). What I'm proposing is that the percentage create a RATE of healing for each character and then just calculate what that rate means in hp. My complaint is _not_ that you don't heal fast enough. My complaint is that the rate that people heal is arbitrary and unreasonable. You can have a really healthy wizard that heals faster than a really sick fighter and vice versa. It's the rate that's important. Dalthbar, I think that you've got something here. Your equation makes sense. Period. However, you left out a suggestion for what to do if a PC receives a full day's rest (FDR). I think that it would be best to take a lead from the original healing method, double the rate of healing when a PC receives a FDR. Actually, take 10% plus the full Con mod plus the full character level. Otherwise you may be cheating players out of a few hp per night. To use your examples with doubled values and variables -- 10% + Con Mod + Character Lvl = FDR Healing Rate a 10th level fighter with a 18 con and 125 hp recovers: (10 + 4 + 10)% or 24% each FDR - 30hp. a 10th level wizard with a 13 con and 35 hp recovers: (10 + 1 + 10)% or 21% each FDR - 7hp Since I just started running a new campaign, I think that I might impliment this new healing method and give it a proper acid test.
utilitarian 07-07-06, 09:53 PM	Don't look at it in terms of %'s, look at it in terms of raw numbers. a Fighter stabbed for 4 points of damage and a Wizard stabbed for 4 points of damage both have taken the same sized wound, the wound is not somehow "smaller" for the fighter because he has more hitpoints, it just means he can take MORE of those wounds. Your 12 HP fighter has taken three times as many wounds as your 4 HP wizard. Why WOULDN'T he take longer to heal? Hell if your wizard had taken the same wounds the fighter had, he'd be starting at -2 HP (and might well be dead). The bottom line is that heal doesn't work in percentages. A wizard at full HP and a fighter at full HP are not both equally healthy. The fighter is, infact, 300% more healthy than the wizard, because that wuss spent all his time studying and not picking up hot chainmail chicks at the gym.
ShinAkuma2 07-07-06, 10:50 PM	I think you've got it backwards... Health is determined mostly by your Con score. A Fighter of Con 13 and a Wizard of Con 13 are equally "healthy". The Fighter's larger HD is more indicative of his martial training in deflecting blows, ignoring pain, and endurance. It's not so much that an axe to the head kills the Wizard but scratches the Fighter. That, say, 10 point blow simply isn't doing the same thing to the two of them. While the Wizard's probably getting a direct blow, the Fighter is able to make the blow less fatal, by dodging or parrying. So it is, in fact, true that a given wound of X hp is "smaller" on the Fighter, due to the fact that it represents less grevious contact.
Wonton2006 07-07-06, 11:20 PM	ShinAkuma2 is right. It would be nigh impossible to take a critical from a sword (essentially a stab in a vital spot - lung, eye, etc.) no matter how much training you have.
ShinAkuma2 07-08-06, 12:31 AM	Exactly...While the Wizard is actually getting that sword lodged in his forehead, the Fighter is lunging out of the way, losing some blood, and probably pulling a muscle, but he's not getting gored.
Darkrose50 07-08-06, 02:17 AM	It's not that the low HP characters heal faster. It's that the high HP characters are getting more beat up. The high HP characters are taking a much larger amount of punishment than the low HP characters. If you do 12 damage to the wizard, he's dead. You need people right there to patch him up, get his heart going, drag him off the field. You do 12 damage to the fighter, he stabs you in the face and takes the week off. Don't think of HP in terms of percentages so much. It creates problems. Don’t try and make house rules, customize the game to your likening, or update the game in any way . . . who needs new role playing games or new versions of old games anyhow . . ..
__DnD4Life__ 07-08-06, 03:13 AM	Well, In my group, we use a different rule (just found out a month ago that it is a HR). We do Character level x Con modifier. There is no real problem with it, as we do powergames, and it counts in the fact that tougher people heal faster, and tougher people have higher Con. So, whaddya think aboot it?
utilitarian 07-08-06, 11:23 AM	Don’t try and make house rules, customize the game to your likening, or update the game in any way . . . who needs new role playing games or new versions of old games anyhow . . .. He's taking a valid stance in a thread debating the validity of of the natural healing and health system in the game. He (and I) are of the opinion that viewing the health of a character as a percentage is misleading. How did you make this huge jump from "I don't think this rule needs to be changed" to "never change any rule! ever!" I think you're seriously mis-representing the opinion presented.
DrMorganes 07-08-06, 12:18 PM	In the past I've toyed with various crossover games. One that was most successful was tossing a bunch of Shadowrun PCs into a D&D setting. From a mechanics standpoint, it was a bit of a nightmare as the two games (this was back in 2nd Edition AD&D) were TOTALLY different mechanically. One of the things I liked, however, was the application of Shadowrun wound levels and healing times. In SR, each character has what's called a "damage track": 10 boxes which represent his physical health. Damage is applied in "wound categories": Light wounds are 1 box, Moderate wounds are 3, Serious 6, Deadly 10. Naturally healing a wound category takes time, and characters had to heal one would category at a time, making healing times cumulative! Going from Deadly to Serious took something like 2 or 3 months, Serious to Moderate was about a month, Modertate to Light was like a week, and Light to no damage was only about a day. (CAVEAT: I haven't played Shadowrun in 11 years. I could have the times horridly wrong.) Times were modified based on the game's equivalent of Constitution. Someone triggering their DocWagon subscription with a Deadly gunshot wound was going to be laid up for the better part of 4 months before they'd be released from the hospital. Even then, they'd still be Moderately Wounded and would have to check back with their physician for a week or more. Magical Healing would take care of a wound cateogry at a time in just a few minutes, but there were restrictions on how often magical healing could be applied to a given PC. So where am I going with this? Shadowrun's healing times are a bit more representative of normal real-world healing. To convert this to D&D really isn't too difficult. Each 10% of the PC's total HP is considered a Light Wound. Up to 29% damage may be healed naturally (with full rest) in a few days. 30% - 59% is Moderately Wounded. Healing this will take at least a week of full bed rest. 60%-99% is Seriously wounded and the PC will be bedridden for a month or more. Down and dying and you're looking at 6 months or better before you're back.
Dalthbar 07-08-06, 02:40 PM	I think you've got it backwards... Health is determined mostly by your Con score. A Fighter of Con 13 and a Wizard of Con 13 are equally "healthy". The Fighter's larger HD is more indicative of his martial training in deflecting blows, ignoring pain, and endurance. Exactly - and since your con is your body's "health score" so to speak, it's reflective of how well you heal, and I think this should be taken into account. Now, since hit points are not JUST the raw damage done but, as noted above, a quasi-real measure of both damage and your ability to "roll with the hit", your character level needs to be taken into account since HP scale with HD. That's why I'm adding in both con and HD on top of a base percentage. As for "full day's rest", I think either start off with a base 10% with the same formula or simply double the hit points gained from 8 hour's rest. (5%+1/2 con+1/2 lvl)*2 I think I like the latter better, but I'm not really set on either over the other. Like I said, it's more math up front, but most people will only need to do this once per level. The only possible issue is someone that has a curse or something similar that reduces or changes their con for more than 8 hours at a time (which doesn't happen often enough to be a big issue, really).
chitzk0i 07-08-06, 10:13 PM	Level 1 Fighter Con 3 (6 hp) from 0 to full health in a mere 3 days full bed rest. If you call Con 3 "full health". A human with 3 Constitution is pretty damn sickly. The main problem is that hit points are this quasi-real concept that means "a lot of things at the same time" and isn't "a pure measure of the damage you've taken". Amen. Hit points represent a lot of different stuff like luck and addiction to positive energy, so use whichever makes more sense in a particular situation.
GothiousRex 07-10-06, 12:22 AM	Well, In my group, we use a different rule (just found out a month ago that it is a HR). We do Character level x Con modifier. There is no real problem with it, as we do powergames, and it counts in the fact that tougher people heal faster, and tougher people have higher Con. So, whaddya think aboot it? ok but what if somebody has a Con mod of 0 or less? they don't heal? Additionally, it doesn't take into account the HD size differential problem. Wizards (d4) heal to full health quicker than fighters (d10) do, under that system
GothiousRex 07-10-06, 12:39 AM	If you call Con 3 "full health". A human with 3 Constitution is pretty damn sickly. Right, so why would he heal back to Full Health (ie Full hit points) faster than the Level 1 Fighter Con 20 15hp would? 3 days of Full Bed Rest and he's back to 6hp aka Full Health takes 8 days for the überhealthy fighter to get to Full Health or 15hp. The sickly fighter should take longer to get back to 6hp than the überhealthy fighter does to get to 15hp, assuming the sickly one would even recover... that's why the system I proposed earlier takes into account Con and works based on percentage health for those characters with greater than 10hp and treats anyone with less than 10 as having 10 for health recovery. Additionally, with my system there's no guarantee that you will get better, you could get worse (infection/internal bleeding and the like) particularly if you had a low Con. Full Day's rest: (2d6 - 5 + Con mod) x 5% x HV = hit points healed (or lost if negative) Night's rest: (1d6 - 3 + Con mod) x 5% x HV = hit points healed (or lost if negative) HV = Total HP of character or 10 whichever is greater
Dalthbar 07-10-06, 12:59 AM	Additionally, with my system there's no guarantee that you will get better, you could get worse (infection/internal bleeding and the like) particularly if you had a low Con. There's a difference between healing wounds and "getting sick". With your system, someone at full HP could "lose HP overnight" for "no real reason". "Getting sick" doesn't account for this though, since most sicknesses merely result in temp ability loss, not actual HP loss.
GothiousRex 07-10-06, 06:17 PM	perhaps I wasn't clear you would only need Natural healing when below Full hit points you wouldn't roll to see if you lose hp when at full. additionally the -5 and -3 modifier could increase the speed of healing after the initial period. instead of (2d6 -5 + Con mod) it could be (2d6 - state mod + Con mod) where state mod could be based on current percentage of total hp. less than 30% => state mod = 5 between 30% and 70% => state mod = 4 over 70% => state mod = 3 and for 8 hours rest (1d6 - state mod + Con mod) less than 30% => state mod = 3 between 30% and 70% => state mod = 2 over 70% => state mod = 1
Gil Gwath 07-10-06, 06:31 PM	According to SRD [...] example Level 1 Wizard (4hp) from 0 to full health in 2 days of full bed rest Level 1 Fighter (12hp) from 0 to full health in 6 days of full bed rest the Wizard heals faster than the Fighter? Hello friend. Maybe it's just me, but your math is kind of weird. Level 1 wizard get 1 hp for 8 hour of rest, or 2 hp for 1 day of complete rest. Level 1 fighter get 1 hp for 8 hour of rest, or 2 hp for 1 day of complete rest. According to you, wizard heals faster than the fighter. According to me, wizard heals equally as the fighter. The first two days of complete rest they are the same, going from 0 to 4 hp each one. The difference starts on the third day, when the fighter starts showing the wizard how better is a life of exercise than a life on the books, and so on for the next2 days (i.e.: the wiz is still 4 hp, the fighter goes to 6, 8 and finally 10). Repeat after me: they both need the exact equal time to recover the same amount of damage. Why should one recover first? only because he has more maximum hp? I think the rule is consistent as it is. By the way, as others already pointed out, hp is a unreal and more this quasi-real concept that means "a lot of things at the same time" and isn't "a pure measure of the damage you've taken"
SolenVlos 07-10-06, 09:14 PM	Ok, my take wizard lvl 1, con 10. takes a good dagger (maximum of a 1d4) in the belly and is disabled. figther lvl 1, con 10 takes a full bastard sword (maximum of a 1d10) in the belly and is disabled. wizards heals from the punch in 2 days of full bed rest figther heals from the sword in 5 days of full bed rest I say it´s easier to heal from a dagger then a bastard sword.
Bertuccio 07-10-06, 10:13 PM	Another problem seems to be that 8 hours rest heals 1HP/lvl, and a full day and night heals 2HP/lvl. But there are three, eight hour periods in a day...so wouldn't a character be better off resting for 8 hours three times in a row, maybe doing something in between and resting again, then sleeping the whole day through?
Dalthbar 07-10-06, 11:33 PM	Another problem seems to be that 8 hours rest heals 1HP/lvl, and a full day and night heals 2HP/lvl. But there are three, eight hour periods in a day...so wouldn't a character be better off resting for 8 hours three times in a row, maybe doing something in between and resting again, then sleeping the whole day through? I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated in the rules, but unless your DM is a moron, they'd impose a "one healing cycle per day" rule to limit it to either normal healing (8 hrs) or a full day's healing. It may very well be a "RAW loophole", but it'd be an "OMG this is so obvious and abusive I'm not going to let you do it" loophole.
Bertuccio 07-11-06, 12:44 AM	Absolutly, I just thought it was funny - but the whole natural healing system seems kinda thrown together anyway
Schmendrick 07-11-06, 05:17 AM	Another problem seems to be that 8 hours rest heals 1HP/lvl, and a full day and night heals 2HP/lvl. But there are three, eight hour periods in a day...so wouldn't a character be better off resting for 8 hours three times in a row, maybe doing something in between and resting again, then sleeping the whole day through? Because it doesn't break down that way. It's not 8 hours of rest that heal you, it's 24 hours of being alive and having a metabolism. "When you wake up" is just a convenient place to assign the actual point recovery. Please tell me your DM doesn't let you take 8 hour "naps" to recover spells or power points midday.
GothiousRex 07-11-06, 09:20 AM	Ok, my take wizard lvl 1, con 10. takes a good dagger (maximum of a 1d4) in the belly and is disabled. figther lvl 1, con 10 takes a full bastard sword (maximum of a 1d10) in the belly and is disabled. wizards heals from the punch in 2 days of full bed rest figther heals from the sword in 5 days of full bed rest I say it´s easier to heal from a dagger then a bastard sword. ok both get hit by a bastard sword who heals to max from the sword hit first? Wizard recovers in 2 days fighter in 5 days
Dalthbar 07-11-06, 09:32 AM	People aren't reading the first few posts in the threads and we have to keep on re-hashing this over-and-over again, making no real progress. Please read the first few posts - the outline the problem that we're talking about.
GothiousRex 07-11-06, 09:56 AM	By the way, as others already pointed out, hp is a unreal and more this quasi-real concept that means "a lot of things at the same time" and isn't "a pure measure of the damage you've taken" right, the reason fighters have higher HD than Wizards is because they practice skirmishing regularly and have a higher pain tolerance, and can deflect blows better. example wizard takes 1 dagger strike and drops fighter takes 3 dagger strikes and drops difference: fighter did not allow a good solid strike, and the scratches he received he can resist better. Though a dagger does an absolute damage of 1d4 the effect of its strikes have less impact on a fighter who is trained to minimize its damage over a wizard who is not. however, arguing that HP are quasi-real does not justify the same rate of recovery through healing either. both characters dropped in the example above would be healed back to 4 hp after 2 days full rest both can take 1 dagger strike in their current state the fighter will continue to heal over the following days. now based on the quasi-real concept of hp, if both characters had 2 days rest and were at 4hp one would expect the fighter to be able to roll with strikes better than the wizard assuming both were given equal time to rest and heal, because hp also represents skill deflecting blows etc. However, this is not the case, in their current state both characters would still be dropped by the same dagger strike. Also, the other problem with the Natural healing rate is that it doesn't take Con into affect.
Finarin Panjoro 07-11-06, 01:50 PM	however, arguing that HP are quasi-real does not justify the same rate of recovery through healing either. both characters dropped in the example above would be healed back to 4 hp after 2 days full rest both can take 1 dagger strike in their current state the fighter will continue to heal over the following days. now based on the quasi-real concept of hp, if both characters had 2 days rest and were at 4hp one would expect the fighter to be able to roll with strikes better than the wizard assuming both were given equal time to rest and heal, because hp also represents skill deflecting blows etc. However, this is not the case, in their current state both characters would still be dropped by the same dagger strike. Also, the other problem with the Natural healing rate is that it doesn't take Con into affect. GothiousRex has a good point here. Further is the idea that if a fighter is better at blocking, reducing, dodging blows than the wizard then his injuries are in fact less serious and he should probably be able to recover from the bruises and pulled muscles with a single day or two of rest. It seems to me that many people are looking for a graduated healing scale based on hit die type modified by Con. The problem that I see is with how this changes demand on the healing spells of divine spellcasters. Consider something like this: For 8 hours of rest a person regains the following amount of hit points per hit die possessed. Double this amount for 24 hours of rest. Double this amount again if they recieve a successful heal check for care during this time. d4=.25 d6=.5 d8=.75 d10=1 d12=1.25 Add/subtract Con modifier once for 8 hours, twice for 24 hours, and double Con Bonus or half Con penalty for a successful heal check. Minimum healing is 1 hp for 8 hours and 2 for 24 hours regardless of Con penalty or heal check. So a fighter 3/ wizard 3/ cleric 3 would gain back 3 hp for fighter levels, .75 hp for wizard levels, and 2.25 hp for cleric levels for a total of 6 hp healed in 8 hours, 12 for 24 hours, and 24 for 24 hours with care. They would also recieve up to 4 times their con modifier in hit points (for 24 hours with care). This lengthens healing time for everyone that is not a fighter class. The reason this is essential is that it doesn't reduce the need for magical healing. If all of a sudden fighters were healing much faster than the system already believes they do then it doesn't power up the fighter it powers up the cleric by requiring him to expend less spells to keep the fighter operational. Fighter classes are the largest draw on magical healing because they take the most hit point damage and thus the most magical resources to bring back up to full fighting strength. Does anyone think its a good idea to power up the cleric? As an example of what I mean imagine that the number above for barbarians was 2 instead of 1.25. A 10th level barbarian with Con 20 could heal 100 hp in 24 hours instead of the 40 he's currently limited too. That difference is a pure bonus to the divine spellcaster who would have been responsible for healing him. It's several high level spells worth of healing that the cleric can now use to do something else. So the only way I see to do it and maintain game balance is to make almost everyone heal even slower than they do now. Does that make sense?
GothiousRex 07-11-06, 05:23 PM	hadn't considered the implications of faster recovery on Cleric power that's a great point I like your system better. mind you I think it'd be cool if there was some uncertainty with natural healing too. why must every character gain 1 hp minimum for 8 hours rest? in the real world people can take a turn for the worse (infection/internal bleeding/etc)