Alternate Saving Throw Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Saving Throw Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tim4488
10-14-06, 11:47 AM I was thinking about the Cloak of Resistance and such and realized that it may be more useful for items to exist that help only one saving throw. Your average Fighter would rather have +2 on will than +1 to all saving throws (especially if he has a good Dex), and yes there's Iron Will but even so. So here's my idea.

Tentatively, a Belt of Endurance, a Headband (amulet?) of Willpower, and Boots of Reflex (no good synonym). Each would grant a +2 Resistance bonus on the relevant save, and cost 1500. I originally planned to price them at 1000 each, but then realized that would make all 3 of them cheaper than a Cloak of Resistance +2, so this way the Cloak is cheaper than all 3 together. Because it's a Resistance Bonus, they can't stack with the cloak.

Any ideas? PEACH.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-14-06, 04:34 PM Eh, I'm no good with balance, but a suggestion. Boots of Grace? Boots of Insightful Dexterity? Sandels of Evasive Manuevers?
Nom
10-14-06, 04:57 PM The rule of thumb on the boards and elsewhere (was discussed in a Rules of the Game article, for example) is that a bonus to one ability score costs half of a bonus to all 3.
Evalis
10-15-06, 02:20 AM Correct me if I'm wrong here.. but shouldn't the item value be divisible by 3 rather than 2?

Essentially the character is sacrificing an item slot on his/her person in order to acheive this, which is reasonably worth whatever benefit that character might recieve in maximizing saves.

Additionally, according to the enchanting rules, the character may 'upgrade' items at normal cost - original, but to add new abilities (such as a will save on top of that reflex save) would cost an additional 50%. Which means that character cannot simply min/max the item at lower levels, and make it as good as the full base item later, without penalty.
Tim4488
10-18-06, 10:16 PM So Nom, you're saying that it should actually cost 2000, and not 1500? These are saving throws, though, not ability scores, so I wonder if the pricing is different.

To be honest, Evalis, I'm not sure I understand your response. Sorry - I consider myself a decent DM, but not a superb one.

Ryu - Thanks, I like Boots of Grace. I'm trying to avoid the words "dexterity" and "evasion" because those are other game rules, and I'd like to avoid confusion. Granted, Grace is a Swashbuckler ability, but it adds to reflex saves, so it fits.
Throg
10-18-06, 10:27 PM Nah;

Pink Tutu of Manliness - +2 Fort Saves
Hearing Aid of Grace - +2 Reflex Saves
High Heels of Willpower - +2 Will Saves

Much better names imho, and it'd make those fighters fashionable.

I think roughly 1500-2000g looks like a fair price. It's late and I don't feel like scouring the books to see how to price only 1 save at.
Nom
10-19-06, 07:57 AM So Nom, you're saying that it should actually cost 2000, and not 1500? These are saving throws, though, not ability scores, so I wonder if the pricing is different.Yes. 1000/2 * bonus squared. Since the bonus is +2, that works out at 500 * 4 = 2000 gp base price.

I'm not sure where ability scores come into it. Resistance bonuses to saves have a pricing guideline of "1000 * bonus squared". I'm suggesting you simply halve that for 1 save.
Patrick Draken-Korin
10-20-06, 12:11 PM What i've seen before was
a) 1000 x bonus squared (resistance bonus to all saves).
b) halve (a) for a single save.
c) halve (b) for a specific effect (poison, disease, fear, traps, etc), and I (me, housruling) allow specific effect resistance saves to go as high as +10 before becoming epic.

The reason a single save is 1/2 the cost of all three, is so that it's more profitable to get the cloak (or equivalent) than three seperate effects (rather than equivalent). Generally the case is always that a single all-encompassing bonus is more costly than several piecemeal abilities that together do the same thing.
Tim4488
10-21-06, 08:30 AM 2000 it is then. Any other comments?
Evalis
10-23-06, 01:40 AM The reason a single save is 1/2 the cost of all three, is so that it's more profitable to get the cloak (or equivalent) than three seperate effects (rather than equivalent). Generally the case is always that a single all-encompassing bonus is more costly than several piecemeal abilities that together do the same thing.

Okay I'm going to explain what I meant a little further here. Lets say you get three items all to protect against saving throws. Vest for fort, boots for reflex, headband for will. You have just illiminated 3 item slots on these items when you could have simply used one.

The penalty in splitting up these effects into seperate items is already calculated in 'splitting the effect up into seperate items'. Thus is is reasonable to assume that you can divide the cost by 3. For the same price, and 3 times the number of slots you could acheive the same effect, or for 1/3 the price and the same number of slots, you could acheive 1 of these effects.

However, as that character advances he/she is no doubt going to require higher saves, even in the categories that are considered 'high', which means eventually that item will have to be swapped out and sold (most probably at a loss) for the replacement of the item that provides a bonus to all three, or to sacrifice an additional slot to acheive the other effects.

Either option is an additional penalty to acquiring a boost a little earlier than normal.

If the item is additionally restricted by a type of saving throw, there should also be a divider based on occurance. Mind/Compulsion should be 1/2 since approximately 1/2 of alll will saves will fall under this category. Reflex vs Traps.. maybe 1/3. Most will come from fireballs, then feat uses, trips, and balance type checks.

For an item that gives +2 to reflex the cost should be 2x2x1000 / 3 or 1350, for one that gives this only vs traps, it could be 450. This is rather pointless in my opinion though. You'd be better off mutiplying the price by 2.5 to make it a different bonus type. Either circumstance, insight, morale or competance. So those Boots of Grace then cost 3375 and provide a competance bonus vs all reflex saves that stacks with resistance bonuses from a cloak of resistance, or Failsafe Sandals 1125 that provide a circumstance bonus to all reflex saves vs traps, again stacking with a cloak of resistance.

Check with your DM!
Tim4488
10-23-06, 07:47 AM Thanks, Evalis. Makes a lot more sense now, and I like a lot of what you're saying. Of course, I'll have to look at how much gold the PC's are playing around with too, might tweak it up a few hundred just as a moneysink if they end up with a lot. But overall that makes sense and looks good.

I am the DM, actually. I started thinking up these items after the party's main Fighter ended up with a 13 str (down from 19) and blind, and I know he was wishing he had a better will save. 5th level Clerics are killers if they hit you with the right spells.

EDIT

Just realized these would be nice for a Sorcerer too. A way to boost some saves and still be able to wear a Cloak of Charisma.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tim4488 10-14-06, 11:47 AM	I was thinking about the Cloak of Resistance and such and realized that it may be more useful for items to exist that help only one saving throw. Your average Fighter would rather have +2 on will than +1 to all saving throws (especially if he has a good Dex), and yes there's Iron Will but even so. So here's my idea. Tentatively, a Belt of Endurance, a Headband (amulet?) of Willpower, and Boots of Reflex (no good synonym). Each would grant a +2 Resistance bonus on the relevant save, and cost 1500. I originally planned to price them at 1000 each, but then realized that would make all 3 of them cheaper than a Cloak of Resistance +2, so this way the Cloak is cheaper than all 3 together. Because it's a Resistance Bonus, they can't stack with the cloak. Any ideas? PEACH.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-14-06, 04:34 PM	Eh, I'm no good with balance, but a suggestion. Boots of Grace? Boots of Insightful Dexterity? Sandels of Evasive Manuevers?
Nom 10-14-06, 04:57 PM	The rule of thumb on the boards and elsewhere (was discussed in a Rules of the Game article, for example) is that a bonus to one ability score costs half of a bonus to all 3.
Evalis 10-15-06, 02:20 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong here.. but shouldn't the item value be divisible by 3 rather than 2? Essentially the character is sacrificing an item slot on his/her person in order to acheive this, which is reasonably worth whatever benefit that character might recieve in maximizing saves. Additionally, according to the enchanting rules, the character may 'upgrade' items at normal cost - original, but to add new abilities (such as a will save on top of that reflex save) would cost an additional 50%. Which means that character cannot simply min/max the item at lower levels, and make it as good as the full base item later, without penalty.
Tim4488 10-18-06, 10:16 PM	So Nom, you're saying that it should actually cost 2000, and not 1500? These are saving throws, though, not ability scores, so I wonder if the pricing is different. To be honest, Evalis, I'm not sure I understand your response. Sorry - I consider myself a decent DM, but not a superb one. Ryu - Thanks, I like Boots of Grace. I'm trying to avoid the words "dexterity" and "evasion" because those are other game rules, and I'd like to avoid confusion. Granted, Grace is a Swashbuckler ability, but it adds to reflex saves, so it fits.
Throg 10-18-06, 10:27 PM	Nah; Pink Tutu of Manliness - +2 Fort Saves Hearing Aid of Grace - +2 Reflex Saves High Heels of Willpower - +2 Will Saves Much better names imho, and it'd make those fighters fashionable. I think roughly 1500-2000g looks like a fair price. It's late and I don't feel like scouring the books to see how to price only 1 save at.
Nom 10-19-06, 07:57 AM	So Nom, you're saying that it should actually cost 2000, and not 1500? These are saving throws, though, not ability scores, so I wonder if the pricing is different.Yes. 1000/2 * bonus squared. Since the bonus is +2, that works out at 500 * 4 = 2000 gp base price. I'm not sure where ability scores come into it. Resistance bonuses to saves have a pricing guideline of "1000 * bonus squared". I'm suggesting you simply halve that for 1 save.
Patrick Draken-Korin 10-20-06, 12:11 PM	What i've seen before was a) 1000 x bonus squared (resistance bonus to all saves). b) halve (a) for a single save. c) halve (b) for a specific effect (poison, disease, fear, traps, etc), and I (me, housruling) allow specific effect resistance saves to go as high as +10 before becoming epic. The reason a single save is 1/2 the cost of all three, is so that it's more profitable to get the cloak (or equivalent) than three seperate effects (rather than equivalent). Generally the case is always that a single all-encompassing bonus is more costly than several piecemeal abilities that together do the same thing.
Tim4488 10-21-06, 08:30 AM	2000 it is then. Any other comments?
Evalis 10-23-06, 01:40 AM	The reason a single save is 1/2 the cost of all three, is so that it's more profitable to get the cloak (or equivalent) than three seperate effects (rather than equivalent). Generally the case is always that a single all-encompassing bonus is more costly than several piecemeal abilities that together do the same thing. Okay I'm going to explain what I meant a little further here. Lets say you get three items all to protect against saving throws. Vest for fort, boots for reflex, headband for will. You have just illiminated 3 item slots on these items when you could have simply used one. The penalty in splitting up these effects into seperate items is already calculated in 'splitting the effect up into seperate items'. Thus is is reasonable to assume that you can divide the cost by 3. For the same price, and 3 times the number of slots you could acheive the same effect, or for 1/3 the price and the same number of slots, you could acheive 1 of these effects. However, as that character advances he/she is no doubt going to require higher saves, even in the categories that are considered 'high', which means eventually that item will have to be swapped out and sold (most probably at a loss) for the replacement of the item that provides a bonus to all three, or to sacrifice an additional slot to acheive the other effects. Either option is an additional penalty to acquiring a boost a little earlier than normal. If the item is additionally restricted by a type of saving throw, there should also be a divider based on occurance. Mind/Compulsion should be 1/2 since approximately 1/2 of alll will saves will fall under this category. Reflex vs Traps.. maybe 1/3. Most will come from fireballs, then feat uses, trips, and balance type checks. For an item that gives +2 to reflex the cost should be 2x2x1000 / 3 or 1350, for one that gives this only vs traps, it could be 450. This is rather pointless in my opinion though. You'd be better off mutiplying the price by 2.5 to make it a different bonus type. Either circumstance, insight, morale or competance. So those Boots of Grace then cost 3375 and provide a competance bonus vs all reflex saves that stacks with resistance bonuses from a cloak of resistance, or Failsafe Sandals 1125 that provide a circumstance bonus to all reflex saves vs traps, again stacking with a cloak of resistance. Check with your DM!
Tim4488 10-23-06, 07:47 AM	Thanks, Evalis. Makes a lot more sense now, and I like a lot of what you're saying. Of course, I'll have to look at how much gold the PC's are playing around with too, might tweak it up a few hundred just as a moneysink if they end up with a lot. But overall that makes sense and looks good. I am the DM, actually. I started thinking up these items after the party's main Fighter ended up with a 13 str (down from 19) and blind, and I know he was wishing he had a better will save. 5th level Clerics are killers if they hit you with the right spells. EDIT Just realized these would be nice for a Sorcerer too. A way to boost some saves and still be able to wear a Cloak of Charisma.