Alternatives to the Personal Costs in Weapons of Legacy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternatives to the Personal Costs in Weapons of Legacy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tennesseefats
10-05-07, 03:53 PM I'm sure this has been asked, but my google-fu isn't powerful enough to find it, so...

One of my players wants to found a WoL (he recently saved the party single handed with a timely double-crit with his quarterstaff) so he got the book. OK, he has a reason, so I looked at the book. The powers are fine, I like the story idea he's come up with, but...the personal costs. Ugh. A penalty to BAB in exchange for an increase in the weapon's enhancement bonus? Yeah, gotta love a zero-sum item like that. We talked about it and he wants to have the weapon, but without the cost. I can't agree with that (balance, ya know?), but I can't think of a good alternative.

So, dear boardies, what have you done or would do as an alternative to the RAW costs in WoL?
oddman
10-05-07, 04:21 PM Well, yes trading a BAB penalty for an enhancement bonus is somewhat counterproductive. But WoL's provide a lot more options than that. Be creative about it. A BAB penalty for the ability to cast fireball 3/day (when you are a fighter) is a pretty good system.

If you don't like that why not make the weapon an item familiar from Unearthed Arcana?
Roog
10-05-07, 06:55 PM OK, he has a reason, so I looked at the book. The powers are fine, I like the story idea he's come up with, but...the personal costs. Ugh. A penalty to BAB in exchange for an increase in the weapon's enhancement bonus? Yeah, gotta love a zero-sum item like that. We talked about it and he wants to have the weapon, but without the cost. I can't agree with that (balance, ya know?), but I can't think of a good alternative.

WoL pp 184-188.

In the section Setting Costs there are a range of tables of penalties and some advice on using them. You may be able to use these to exchange one set of penalties for another, or as a guide to create your own penalties.

I agree that the whole thing is inelegant, and some other way of balancing Legacy Weapons would be nice to have.
Darth Sephiroth
10-06-07, 08:00 AM One option I have added into my game is an edit to the Legacy Champion. They lose the ability to change Legacy abilities in exchange for losing the Legacy Penalties for that Legacy Level.
Amaril
10-10-07, 11:00 PM The thing to consider about the penalties for legacy items is that you can purchase magic items to offset the penalties with the money you save from the cheaper cost of legacy items.
Bypass
10-11-07, 04:09 AM The thing to consider about the penalties for legacy items is that you can purchase magic items to offset the penalties with the money you save from the cheaper cost of legacy items.

Well if we're going to do that, why not just eliminate the penalties for using a WoL and replace them with a gold cost? :D

So, dear boardies, what have you done or would do as an alternative to the RAW costs in WoL?

The Oriental Adventures Samurai and the Kensai PrC ability to self-enhance their weapons may also work, I think either is a better system than taking those various penalties to your abilities.

Now, I will admit I am no expert on the Weapons of Legacy rules (as I have never seen them in use nor have I had the desire to found my own) so it is possible these things are in the book already, but I will suggest them anyway.

I will also state up front that I am tired, and it is very likely that I could convey my thoughts in a much more concise manner.

The main reason I don't want a Weapon of Legacy is those niggling, sometimes random-seeming penalties. They seem to me to usually counteract the benefits provided, either directly or indirectly (by penalizing a skill you don't use much, but sometimes do, or just taking some HP), and in that respect it seems about the same gain in terms of "power" as if one was to just purchase and wield a standard magical item. It's a great idea, but the weapons come across as semi-cursed items to me, and at any rate, you are still "buying" the magic abilities with those ritual gp costs.

So, here are my suggestions for using Weapon of Legacy, but without those goofy penalties. The reasoning hidden away in sblocks, because otherwise this post will be much too long, and people will just skip it entirely :P:

1) Raise the gold cost, remove penalties
Most of the time, the weapons not only require some kind of quest or some kind of effort on the part of the player, it also takes gold (often for no especially compelling reason). Now, I assume that just a pure quest isn't really any kind of "penalty" or "cost" for a player, because he was going to go on quests of some kind anyway.

But, if you are going to charge him money for it anyway in addition to also levying those minor penalties here and there, why not just boost the cash costs but reduce or eliminate the various other penalties? Examine the abilities granted for the Least, Lesser, Greater etc. abilities and assign a GP cost to them. Some items just plain replicate the effects that other magic items can grant you, so finding a price for those should be as easy as finding them in the books.

Now, "gold" is not really a permanent or meaningful cost you might say, but I would argue it is a meaningful cost. Most adventuring parties split the loot fairly evenly I would think, so that means each player gets approx the same amount of cash as each other player. Once you spend that money, it's gone - until you go out and "earn" some more. But, once you have earned more gold, you are also probably higher level, and have more expensive things you need to be spending it on.

The cost is not so much the gold itself, but what you are potentially giving up by not having gold. You sink your GP into the Legacy item to complete the rituals, and the rest of the party uses their same/similar amount of cash and sinks it into their own magic gear, or learning new spells, or crafting items or doing other things that are useful to them.

If you spend your (limited by its very nature) share of the money on upgrading your Legacy sword, then you obviously won't also be buying those magic Gloves you had your eye on, unless another member loans you the cash. This is exactly the same as when you buy any other item, except instead of "buying" or "enchanting" you are just investing it in your nice, unique, and flavorful weapon with expensive rituals and ceremonies (and perhaps research fees) instead of "hiring" people or paying retail.

Part of the reasoning behind the Magic Item Compendium's pricing scheme was that many things in that book are cheap because the actual cost was not the GP value, but rather the opportunity cost of filling up a certain slot (because you can't put something else there at the same time). I think similar logic can hold for a Weapon of Legacy, but instead of those dinky penalties as being the "actual" cost, it is now the opportunity cost of sinking more money into that item.

2) Just charge XP instead of the various penalties
Instead of "investing yourself" into your weapon by taking many little penalties, why not just go for the more "traditional" source of your personal power and essence? This is similar to just assigning a GP cost to the special abilities, but you are instead assigning an XP cost. You can use the Kensai PrC (Complete Warrior) as a guide for the XP to enhancement ratio, but it may seem a bit low for certain abilities so tweak them if you have to. Alternately you could charge XP equivalent to "crafting" the Legacy item even if you don't have a feat for crafting, but I'm not sure how that will scale. The "price" you will get in XP will probably come down to a DM call in the end though.

Why use XP? It makes more "sense" in most game worlds. When a character is killed and brought back, he might suffer an XP reduction in the form of level loss. When a character Crafts any kind of magic item, he "invests" part of himself into making it in the form of sacrificing XP in addition to the gold. This will make upgrading a Weapon of Legacy as being closer to "crafting" it.

But, XP is not a severe enough penalty you may say. After all, if the player falls behind in levels, he will start to gain more XP for each encounter than the other players because lower level characters earn more XP. This is true. However, it is practically impossible to ever fully catch up once you start losing XP, unless the other players are crafters, or they miss sessions, or they get killed more than you do. In general, (in my experience) you will always level up after the other players if you all play the same amount and your characters all die about the same amount.

That might not seem like much of a penalty, and it isn't really. However, consider how "powerful" a character with a standard Craft feat might be just by spending the same (or probably smaller amounts) of XP on producing his items. Having a good Wand or Wondrous Item can significantly boost a character's effectiveness, even if he starts to fall behind in levels. This is similar to the idea that you are "crafting" the legacy weapon. You could just as well be crafting something else with your XP after all, and also getting boosts. (Often, items are crafted for the whole party rather than the player with the particular feat, but the crafting player should get at least some kind of monetary compensation, or first dibs on treasure etc.)

3) Make it cost "feats"
This one is simple. Instead of the character "paying" for the legacy weapon with those annoying penalties, and then being granted the free Legacy feat, he could just take the feat by using his own feat slots. This would mean most classes would be limited to boosting their weapons to once every 3 levels, which is probably fine anyway. You can let them take the appropriate feats in advance the same way they can complete rituals in advance, they just don't do anything unless the character is the appropriate level.

Why a feat slot? For most character classes, feats are an extremely limited and valuable resource. Also, by the default system in the Weapons of Legacy book, you complete a ritual and are granted a "free feat", which seems kind of complicated. So, instead of dealing with these "free feats", you actually spend a feat slot on taking those feats. This represents your character's strong devotion to improving his "relationship" with his weapon, and mechanically it is a pretty steep cost.

But, does the cost equal the benefits, you might ask. This is tricky, and the answer is I'm not really sure. This depends somewhat on what the item actually does as part of its Legacy abilities. If the benefits seem like they would be worth a feat, it probably is a fair trade. If all the benefits seem like they are much too small of a trade for a feat slot, perhaps you could consider boosting the item's granted powers a bit to compensate. If the abilities seem much too good for just a feat, then you could adjust them the other way.

However, you should also consider what the other granted powers are of the weapons (at different levels) before making changes to the benefits - one ability might not be worth a feat, but a later ability might be worth more than a feat, equaling out. This is sort of like how certain "good" feats have prerequisites that are not especially useful on their own (Dodge and Mobility in order to get Spring Attack for example).

Well, those are my 3 ideas for the moment. Hopefully I have not just replicated other peoples' ideas that I was unaware of, but I probably did. :weep:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tennesseefats 10-05-07, 03:53 PM	I'm sure this has been asked, but my google-fu isn't powerful enough to find it, so... One of my players wants to found a WoL (he recently saved the party single handed with a timely double-crit with his quarterstaff) so he got the book. OK, he has a reason, so I looked at the book. The powers are fine, I like the story idea he's come up with, but...the personal costs. Ugh. A penalty to BAB in exchange for an increase in the weapon's enhancement bonus? Yeah, gotta love a zero-sum item like that. We talked about it and he wants to have the weapon, but without the cost. I can't agree with that (balance, ya know?), but I can't think of a good alternative. So, dear boardies, what have you done or would do as an alternative to the RAW costs in WoL?
oddman 10-05-07, 04:21 PM	Well, yes trading a BAB penalty for an enhancement bonus is somewhat counterproductive. But WoL's provide a lot more options than that. Be creative about it. A BAB penalty for the ability to cast fireball 3/day (when you are a fighter) is a pretty good system. If you don't like that why not make the weapon an item familiar from Unearthed Arcana?
Roog 10-05-07, 06:55 PM	OK, he has a reason, so I looked at the book. The powers are fine, I like the story idea he's come up with, but...the personal costs. Ugh. A penalty to BAB in exchange for an increase in the weapon's enhancement bonus? Yeah, gotta love a zero-sum item like that. We talked about it and he wants to have the weapon, but without the cost. I can't agree with that (balance, ya know?), but I can't think of a good alternative. WoL pp 184-188. In the section Setting Costs there are a range of tables of penalties and some advice on using them. You may be able to use these to exchange one set of penalties for another, or as a guide to create your own penalties. I agree that the whole thing is inelegant, and some other way of balancing Legacy Weapons would be nice to have.
Darth Sephiroth 10-06-07, 08:00 AM	One option I have added into my game is an edit to the Legacy Champion. They lose the ability to change Legacy abilities in exchange for losing the Legacy Penalties for that Legacy Level.
Amaril 10-10-07, 11:00 PM	The thing to consider about the penalties for legacy items is that you can purchase magic items to offset the penalties with the money you save from the cheaper cost of legacy items.
Bypass 10-11-07, 04:09 AM	The thing to consider about the penalties for legacy items is that you can purchase magic items to offset the penalties with the money you save from the cheaper cost of legacy items. Well if we're going to do that, why not just eliminate the penalties for using a WoL and replace them with a gold cost? :D So, dear boardies, what have you done or would do as an alternative to the RAW costs in WoL? The Oriental Adventures Samurai and the Kensai PrC ability to self-enhance their weapons may also work, I think either is a better system than taking those various penalties to your abilities. Now, I will admit I am no expert on the Weapons of Legacy rules (as I have never seen them in use nor have I had the desire to found my own) so it is possible these things are in the book already, but I will suggest them anyway. I will also state up front that I am tired, and it is very likely that I could convey my thoughts in a much more concise manner. The main reason I don't want a Weapon of Legacy is those niggling, sometimes random-seeming penalties. They seem to me to usually counteract the benefits provided, either directly or indirectly (by penalizing a skill you don't use much, but sometimes do, or just taking some HP), and in that respect it seems about the same gain in terms of "power" as if one was to just purchase and wield a standard magical item. It's a great idea, but the weapons come across as semi-cursed items to me, and at any rate, you are still "buying" the magic abilities with those ritual gp costs. So, here are my suggestions for using Weapon of Legacy, but without those goofy penalties. The reasoning hidden away in sblocks, because otherwise this post will be much too long, and people will just skip it entirely :P: 1) Raise the gold cost, remove penalties Most of the time, the weapons not only require some kind of quest or some kind of effort on the part of the player, it also takes gold (often for no especially compelling reason). Now, I assume that just a pure quest isn't really any kind of "penalty" or "cost" for a player, because he was going to go on quests of some kind anyway. But, if you are going to charge him money for it anyway in addition to also levying those minor penalties here and there, why not just boost the cash costs but reduce or eliminate the various other penalties? Examine the abilities granted for the Least, Lesser, Greater etc. abilities and assign a GP cost to them. Some items just plain replicate the effects that other magic items can grant you, so finding a price for those should be as easy as finding them in the books. Now, "gold" is not really a permanent or meaningful cost you might say, but I would argue it is a meaningful cost. Most adventuring parties split the loot fairly evenly I would think, so that means each player gets approx the same amount of cash as each other player. Once you spend that money, it's gone - until you go out and "earn" some more. But, once you have earned more gold, you are also probably higher level, and have more expensive things you need to be spending it on. The cost is not so much the gold itself, but what you are potentially giving up by not having gold. You sink your GP into the Legacy item to complete the rituals, and the rest of the party uses their same/similar amount of cash and sinks it into their own magic gear, or learning new spells, or crafting items or doing other things that are useful to them. If you spend your (limited by its very nature) share of the money on upgrading your Legacy sword, then you obviously won't also be buying those magic Gloves you had your eye on, unless another member loans you the cash. This is exactly the same as when you buy any other item, except instead of "buying" or "enchanting" you are just investing it in your nice, unique, and flavorful weapon with expensive rituals and ceremonies (and perhaps research fees) instead of "hiring" people or paying retail. Part of the reasoning behind the Magic Item Compendium's pricing scheme was that many things in that book are cheap because the actual cost was not the GP value, but rather the opportunity cost of filling up a certain slot (because you can't put something else there at the same time). I think similar logic can hold for a Weapon of Legacy, but instead of those dinky penalties as being the "actual" cost, it is now the opportunity cost of sinking more money into that item. 2) Just charge XP instead of the various penalties Instead of "investing yourself" into your weapon by taking many little penalties, why not just go for the more "traditional" source of your personal power and essence? This is similar to just assigning a GP cost to the special abilities, but you are instead assigning an XP cost. You can use the Kensai PrC (Complete Warrior) as a guide for the XP to enhancement ratio, but it may seem a bit low for certain abilities so tweak them if you have to. Alternately you could charge XP equivalent to "crafting" the Legacy item even if you don't have a feat for crafting, but I'm not sure how that will scale. The "price" you will get in XP will probably come down to a DM call in the end though. Why use XP? It makes more "sense" in most game worlds. When a character is killed and brought back, he might suffer an XP reduction in the form of level loss. When a character Crafts any kind of magic item, he "invests" part of himself into making it in the form of sacrificing XP in addition to the gold. This will make upgrading a Weapon of Legacy as being closer to "crafting" it. But, XP is not a severe enough penalty you may say. After all, if the player falls behind in levels, he will start to gain more XP for each encounter than the other players because lower level characters earn more XP. This is true. However, it is practically impossible to ever fully catch up once you start losing XP, unless the other players are crafters, or they miss sessions, or they get killed more than you do. In general, (in my experience) you will always level up after the other players if you all play the same amount and your characters all die about the same amount. That might not seem like much of a penalty, and it isn't really. However, consider how "powerful" a character with a standard Craft feat might be just by spending the same (or probably smaller amounts) of XP on producing his items. Having a good Wand or Wondrous Item can significantly boost a character's effectiveness, even if he starts to fall behind in levels. This is similar to the idea that you are "crafting" the legacy weapon. You could just as well be crafting something else with your XP after all, and also getting boosts. (Often, items are crafted for the whole party rather than the player with the particular feat, but the crafting player should get at least some kind of monetary compensation, or first dibs on treasure etc.) 3) Make it cost "feats" This one is simple. Instead of the character "paying" for the legacy weapon with those annoying penalties, and then being granted the free Legacy feat, he could just take the feat by using his own feat slots. This would mean most classes would be limited to boosting their weapons to once every 3 levels, which is probably fine anyway. You can let them take the appropriate feats in advance the same way they can complete rituals in advance, they just don't do anything unless the character is the appropriate level. Why a feat slot? For most character classes, feats are an extremely limited and valuable resource. Also, by the default system in the Weapons of Legacy book, you complete a ritual and are granted a "free feat", which seems kind of complicated. So, instead of dealing with these "free feats", you actually spend a feat slot on taking those feats. This represents your character's strong devotion to improving his "relationship" with his weapon, and mechanically it is a pretty steep cost. But, does the cost equal the benefits, you might ask. This is tricky, and the answer is I'm not really sure. This depends somewhat on what the item actually does as part of its Legacy abilities. If the benefits seem like they would be worth a feat, it probably is a fair trade. If all the benefits seem like they are much too small of a trade for a feat slot, perhaps you could consider boosting the item's granted powers a bit to compensate. If the abilities seem much too good for just a feat, then you could adjust them the other way. However, you should also consider what the other granted powers are of the weapons (at different levels) before making changes to the benefits - one ability might not be worth a feat, but a later ability might be worth more than a feat, equaling out. This is sort of like how certain "good" feats have prerequisites that are not especially useful on their own (Dodge and Mobility in order to get Spring Attack for example). Well, those are my 3 ideas for the moment. Hopefully I have not just replicated other peoples' ideas that I was unaware of, but I probably did. :weep: