Post/Author/DateTime	Post
meatrace 05-12-06, 04:32 AM	I dunno, 2d6 unnamed damage on every hit seems pretty rockin to me. There's that little issue of it biting back, but c'mon, I can take it! A friend of mine mocks my love of the vicious enhancement, but what do you think? Obviously it sucks more the more attacks you have. Playing a Tempest, hasted, with two vicious weapons could be extremely painful. However, especially with harrier fighters, hit and run do the most damage in one strike dealies, it's not a bad option.
Archangel62 05-12-06, 04:36 AM	It actually depends heavily on the style of game. My groups tend to dislike them but that's also because most of them don't have any healer concepts they want to try and would rather not be sucking down healing potions constantly. I personally think that it can be quite good but the problem is this, the weapon is wonderful early on but later in the game with long fights it's going to be more of a hindrance than help in the long run.
meatrace 05-12-06, 04:37 AM	It actually depends heavily on the style of game. My groups tend to dislike them but that's also because most of them don't have any healer concepts they want to try and would rather not be sucking down healing potions constantly. I personally think that it can be quite good but the problem is this, the weapon is wonderful early on but later in the game with long fights it's going to be more of a hindrance than help in the long run. nothing says you can't turn the vicious off though, if it hurts too bad.
Archangel62 05-12-06, 04:39 AM	You can't turn it off, you can't really turn any enchantment off unless it says so as it does with merciful. Vicious doesn't work well for players that want to plot out characters all the way to 20th level and keep weapons. Most of my groups upgrade their current gear as they go, usually buying a spare or two just to be safe.
myusernameis 05-12-06, 06:02 AM	Vicious weapons are the seven secret herbs and spices of ass kicking in weapon properties. Try giving one to a CoDzilla (cleric specifically) and you'll see exactly what I mean. Creatures with fast healing or regeneration are such obvious choices to have wielding vicious weapons it makes my eyes bleed just thinking about people not doing it.
WombleHunter 05-12-06, 06:41 AM	Vicious weapons are the seven secret herbs and spices of ass kicking in weapon properties. Try giving one to a CoDzilla (cleric specifically) and you'll see exactly what I mean. Creatures with fast healing or regeneration are such obvious choices to have wielding vicious weapons it makes my eyes bleed just thinking about people not doing it. Funny you should say that. We had a Shade (Faerun, Fast Healing 5 in shadowy environs) who used a Vicious weapon. It killed him, effectively.
Cadfan 05-12-06, 07:07 AM	As someone who frequently ends up playing the healer, I deny healing to people who use vicious weapons. Every spell I spend keeping them not-dead is one less spell I could have used for something useful. If they want to go around intentionally wounding themselves, that's their business.
WombleHunter 05-12-06, 07:11 AM	As someone who frequently ends up playing the healer, I deny healing to people who use vicious weapons. Every spell I spend keeping them not-dead is one less spell I could have used for something useful. If they want to go around intentionally wounding themselves, that's their business. Ooh, good answer.
Armoracia Rusticana 05-12-06, 07:19 AM	Try Merciful Vicious weapon. In the hands of Frenzied Berserker. It can't kill the party, also.
Rulebook 05-12-06, 09:10 AM	oh bull. a FB will probably turn off the merciful part of it in favor of actually killing. i prefer Merciful, Wounding weapons. the con drain lowers HP, which makes the merciful work faster. a lot of people dont like the idea of merciful weapons, but they fail to realize that an unconcious opponent is just a Coup de Gras away from being a dead opponent. best +1 enhancement if you ask me.
ff6shadow 05-12-06, 09:24 AM	Except a Frenzied Berserker can't turn it off while he is in a Frenzy.
Keenath 05-12-06, 09:26 AM	I tend to agree with Cadfan and your friend -- Vicious just doesn't seem like a good deal to me. The whole point of dealing more damage is to kill the other guy faster, which stops him from hurting you more. Taking damage to do so tends to defeat the whole purpose. Vicious weapons (in my opinion) should be Troll weapons, almost exclusively. Note that if you get a Merciful Vicious weapon, the vicious damage isn't nonlethal, any more than a merciful flaming sword produces "nonlethal fire" damage. Vicious damage is unnamed magical energy damage. The only way I could see using Vicious is if the weapon had some manner of vampiric power as well, so that I could use both abilities together to offset the Vicious resonance, or if I were a PsyWar or similar where I could easily get temporary HP to suck up the damage.
DarknessEternal 05-12-06, 09:56 AM	Try using a Vicious Wrathful Healing weapon. You'll still end up healing for more than you hurt yourself. Of course, that's effectively at least a +5 weapon, so you may have been better off with a straight +5.
Keenath 05-12-06, 10:02 AM	Yeah, if you need to get a second +1 to offset the Vicious damage, just get two elemental enhancements for that 2d6, or otherwise invest in more useful powers. Actually, I could see using Vicious on a dagger or something of that nature, to produce a small weapon with a shockingly high one-hit damage output. It's not meant for constant use, but for a surprise attack, where you want a concealable weapon that still does big damage. +1 is a good weapon ability, but only in the long run. Sometimes you want a weapon that can deal lots of damage in a single hit, and that's where Vicious is worth having. Especially if you can combine it with sneak attack. Still, in my opinion, vicious is more or less a cursed ability -- it has a good point, but a major downside.
meatrace 05-12-06, 02:58 PM	Yeah, if you need to get a second +1 to offset the Vicious damage, just get two elemental enhancements for that 2d6, or otherwise invest in more useful powers. Actually, I could see using Vicious on a dagger or something of that nature, to produce a small weapon with a shockingly high one-hit damage output. It's not meant for constant use, but for a surprise attack, where you want a concealable weapon that still does big damage. actually, that's what I've done in the game I run. I created an intelligent, vicious, shocking dagger named Izx. the rogue kicks ass with it, but needs constant healing.
AbyssKnight 05-12-06, 03:53 PM	Note that if you get a Merciful Vicious weapon, the vicious damage isn't nonlethal, any more than a merciful flaming sword produces "nonlethal fire" damage. I don't see any reason why this would be true. Merciful makes all the damage done by the weapon non-lethal. Vicious, Flaming et al, and Wounding are all properties of the weapon and thus should also become non-lethal. It would work just like the Non-lethal Substitution metamagic feat. However, Yes, I agree that only creatures with Fast Healing/Regeneration should use Vicious weapons unless it is coupled with something like Wrathful Healing.
Tony Vargas 05-12-06, 04:03 PM	Actually, I could see using Vicious on a dagger or something of that nature, to produce a small weapon with a shockingly high one-hit damage output. It's not meant for constant use, but for a surprise attack, where you want a concealable weapon that still does big damage. Nod. The more general case for Vicious is when you want to hit hard, but not often. It's ideal for 'hold out' or backup weapons that you expect to use infrequently. I like putting Viscious on Armor Spikes - they're last-resort weapons with relatively poor damage potential, plus it fits the S&M look of the spikes, too. Similarly, you could put it on a spell-storing weapon, to maximize the effect of the single hit that releases the spell. A very high-damage weapon, especially one you bust out to 'finish' opponents after using a lower-damage 'tactical' weapon, is also a candidate for the enchantment. Practicality aside, though, the enchantment can still be cool... Viscious Bane and Unholy weapons, for instance, make sense thematically - they're weapons that might be created out of hate and spite (or for use by expendable wielders, for that matter). In a high-level campaign, +1 Viscious weapons would make reasonable armament for 'mooks' (since the players probably wouldn't much want them, and they might not even be that easy to sell). I also like the Merciful/Vicious idea ("this's gonna hurt me a little less the it'll hurt you"), it's just cute. I could see such a weapon being crafted by a caster who dislikes both killing and violence, even while acknowledging thier necessity - it's a weapon that doesn't kill, and that 'reminds' the wielder, painfully, that he should be seeking other means of conflict-resolution. ;) And if he does need to kill and supresses the Merciful, he'd better 'dig two graves' as the saying goes.
mvincent 05-12-06, 04:14 PM	As someone who frequently ends up playing the healer, I deny healing to people who use vicious weapons. Every spell I spend keeping them not-dead is one less spell I could have used for something useful. If they want to go around intentionally wounding themselves, that's their business.Couldn't they just purchase a wand of cure light wounds for 750 gp and give it to you to use on them after battles?
Necromas 05-12-06, 04:23 PM	If you somehow have regeneration 5 or something like that, I guess it would be beneficial to use a vicious weapon.
psionichamster 05-12-06, 05:30 PM	we had a barbarian w/ Oversized TWF (and buncha TWF-chain feats) who had 1 keen and 1 vicious bastard sword. when he raged, charged in, and started whacking away, it was quite the scene of bloody mess. plus, 1d6 to yourself in 1 round, when you take more than 5 rounds off the other guys life...that's the kind of tradeoff you see w/ a barbarian...high damage output, low survival threshold (AC, etc) of course, he did meet his end at the hands of something big and nasty...half-golems with a con-draining breath weapon and something like 1d10+12 or something damage he went down swinging, tho... namaste' the hamster
Cadfan 05-12-06, 06:01 PM	mvincent- Yes, they could. However, a wand of cure light wounds with 50 charges heals 275 points of damage. They will personally go through one of those every other session, so the cost will be extensive. Our group keeps one of these on hand, sure, but we generally find that the group collectively goes through about one a day. One person alone, intentionally harming himself, is going to go through a LOT of healing. Every two hits is 7 damage on average, that's more than one cure light wounds from a wand (average cure, 5.5). And what they'll really miss is the augmented healing cure serious wounds in the middle of battle that cures 3d8+13 damage at level 7.
dragonseth 05-12-06, 07:08 PM	Merciful and Viscious is something I have never thought of. But, I think my Warforged Juggernaut just got a new favorite combo. :D
mvincent 05-12-06, 07:59 PM	They will personally go through one of those every other session, so the cost will be extensive.Really? While it might be a factor, burning up 500 or gp per level doesn't seem like very much at mid-levels (maybe about 3% of the loot you'll acquire during 10th level). Such an attrition of resources seems relatively modest even for a miserly player like myself.
John Q. Mayhem 05-14-06, 09:25 AM	Vicious rocks my socks.
Raven Dark 05-14-06, 10:40 AM	I really enjoy my +1 flaming, frost, merciful, shock, vicious whip. My DM allows me to deal the extra energy damage dice with touch attacks or whenever I do trip attempts (since the energy properties hurt anything they touch). I deal 1d3+3 plus 6d6 nonlethal damage on any given hit out form 15 feet. I describe the glowing whip as being so powerful that the magical energies held within make it unstable to the point that it causes a painful backlash to the wielder whenever used. :D
Rulebook 05-14-06, 05:29 PM	Abyssal, the damage isnt done by the weapon, but rather by the enhancement which is -attached- to the weapon. weapon damage can be multiplied by a critial hit. do you let +dX enhancements multiply on crits?
Witchblade 05-14-06, 05:49 PM	Would the combination of DR and Vicious work to get no/little damage? Or does the 'magical' damage pass through the DR?
Raven Dark 05-14-06, 06:02 PM	Abyssal, the damage isnt done by the weapon, but rather by the enhancement which is -attached- to the weapon. weapon damage can be multiplied by a critial hit. do you let +dX enhancements multiply on crits? That was kind of the point. The ability to trip somebody (dealing 6d6 damage) and then get a free melee touch attack against the prone target for an addition 6d6 damage (Improved Trip) from 15 feet away is nothing to sneeze at. :rolleyes: That is an average of 68 damage. :P
Bulletproof_Condom 05-14-06, 06:06 PM	I love vicious. 2d6 damage for a +1 is badass. If you get your AC and saves reasonably high, then there's a good chance that the only damage you'll take is backlash. Then all you need is reasonably high hit points (which fighters and barbarians have) or some ability to heal yourself (paladins, monks, rangers, bards, clerics, druids, and some rogues and psions). You don't have to be able to survive the damage forever. You just have to be able to survive it until you're out of targets.
Zathyr 05-14-06, 06:47 PM	Merciful and Viscious is something I have never thought of. But, I think my Warforged Juggernaut just got a new favorite combo. :D Moreso than that Life-Drinker battleaxe?
Keenath 05-14-06, 10:05 PM	Would the combination of DR and Vicious work to get no/little damage? Or does the 'magical' damage pass through the DR? Vicious damage is unnamed magical energy damage. It can't be bypassed or turned off in any way -- Resist Energy can't be set for unnamed, and DR only works against physical. This is intentional, and I think it was covered in a Sage Advice once, though it isn't in the FAQ. I'm of the opinion that Merciful only changes the weapon damage (that is, dice plus strength plus enhancement) to nonlethal. If you have merciful and flaming turned on, you deal normal damage+1d6 in nonlethal, and 1d6 fire.
Lord Ian Stark 05-14-06, 11:14 PM	Vicious has become a weapon of noone's choice in our game. Why you say? My wife decided to use this ability on her monk weapon when we started out at a mid level. (Can't remember what exact level but around 7 I believe) Long story short, she was hitting the enemies so many times a round she was quickly killing herself. The enemy's barely hit her high AC yet she had to stop using her weapons because they were outright killing her. I laughed when she asked after the first battle if she could change her weapon's special ability. ;)
Archangel62 05-15-06, 03:55 AM	I think there is also the player fear of rolling two 1s for damage to enemy and a 6 to self. My tank has one of these suckers for a last resort emergency. He actually has two weapons, one is his usual bill of fair the vicious one is his 'I'm dying soon, they want to kill me well let's see who can do it faster'
Keenath 05-15-06, 10:55 AM	My tank has one of these suckers for a last resort emergency.I typically try to avoid hitting myself when I'm low on HPs. This or that Lifedrinker axe, either one, I'd only use as a sort of sneak-attack or surprise round booster, for when you really want big damage in the first round... If it would make the difference between a one-hit kill and the target getting to call for help, Vicious is worth it. Otherwise, meh. No thanks. I guess I should mention that, for that particular use, Vicious works well with Bane, if you know what kind of creature you're likely to want to first-strike. A +3 weapon is a decently inexpensive backup, and a +1 Vicious Bane has a really good chance of hitting against the baned creature.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-15-06, 11:29 AM	Oh, for the love of- Take some risks, people! God, you need a little danger in your life. You need to be exposed to the possibility of not coming home one day. It's good for you. If you can't do that with yourself, for the love of one or more gods, do it with a fictional character. It's not as if said character is living in a world where death is irreversible and life is irreplacable. He's numbers on paper. Let him take 1d6 damage every hit. Think of how awesome he'd look when the battle's over and his eyes are bleeding even though nobody's touched him.
Tony Vargas 05-15-06, 01:04 PM	As an asside, how do you guys roll Vicious damage? 2d6 for the target, and a separate single d6 for the wielder? I find it somehow unsatifying to have the possibility of the wielder taking more damage than the target (rolling snake-eyes on damage, then a 6 vs himself) or doing huge damage to the target (up to 12 points) and taking only a point himself. Two alternatives that do the same average damage to both: 1d6 damage to the wielder, result multiplied by 2 for the target. Roll two different-colored d6's. Wielder takes the result of one, designated before rolling, target takes the total. Another obvious alternative - roll 2d for the target, aply half the result to the wielder - favors the wielder due to D&D-rounding.
Keenath 05-15-06, 03:23 PM	Oh, for the love of- Take some risks, people! God, you need a little danger in your life. You need to be exposed to the possibility of not coming home one day. It's good for you.Let me get this straight... Fighting minotaurs and dragons and zombies and zombie half-dragon minotaurs isn't good enough -- I'm not really being a risk-taker unless I purposely smash my head against a brick? Whatever.
meatrace 05-15-06, 04:47 PM	Oh, for the love of- Take some risks, people! God, you need a little danger in your life. You need to be exposed to the possibility of not coming home one day. It's good for you. If you can't do that with yourself, for the love of one or more gods, do it with a fictional character. It's not as if said character is living in a world where death is irreversible and life is irreplacable. He's numbers on paper. Let him take 1d6 damage every hit. Think of how awesome he'd look when the battle's over and his eyes are bleeding even though nobody's touched him. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: my point exactly.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-15-06, 05:14 PM	Let me get this straight... Fighting minotaurs and dragons and zombies and zombie half-dragon minotaurs isn't good enough -- I'm not really being a risk-taker unless I purposely smash my head against a brick? Uh-huh. You can use this one. Mighty Brick: This +1 corrosive flaming frost shock vicious cinderblock is very heavy, requiring a Strength of 16 or higher to weild. It is a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature, dealing 2d6 bludgeoning damage (triple damage on a critical hit) in addition to the myriad energy damage produced by the brick. Additionally, mighty brick can be thrown with a range increment of 30 feet. Strong evocation and necromancy; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, acid fog, chill metal or ice storm, fireball, lightning bolt, enervation, creator must be a barbarian; Price 80,000 gp.
Lord Ian Stark 05-15-06, 06:31 PM	As an asside, how do you guys roll Vicious damage? 2d6 for the target, and a separate single d6 for the wielder? That's how we did it. Basically she'd roll 3d6 and would say which one would be hers. (Prior to the actual roll ;) )
tiercel 05-15-06, 08:40 PM	Another time vicious is worth it is when your character lives in a world of offensive-powerhouse enemies. If the creatures you fight overwhelm your AC and other defenses, then at some point "the best defense is a good offense" -- the amount of backlash you will take from a successful full-round attack or two is worth it if you can shorten the amount of beating you will take by even a round. The other obvious choice is everyone's favorite team player, the frenzied berserker -- if you have gone FB then AC is not your concern -- it tanks when you go frenzy+rage plus, if something is living through one of your full attacks, or worse, Leap Attacks, something is seriously wrong anyway. Additionally, after a certain point damage can't kill you while in a frenzy anyway. Besides, if your frenzied berserker is wielding a vicious weapon it will just make you that much more efficient at annihilating your party when you inevitably both blow your save to come out of frenzy and make your save against any restraining spell your partymates can throw. This will speed the creation of a new party and the banning of frenzied berserker from your campaign forever and ever ;)
Luckdragon 05-23-06, 03:39 PM	Vicious damage is unnamed magical energy damage. It can't be bypassed or turned off in any way -- Resist Energy can't be set for unnamed, and DR only works against physical. This is intentional, and I think it was covered in a Sage Advice once, though it isn't in the FAQ. I'm of the opinion that Merciful only changes the weapon damage (that is, dice plus strength plus enhancement) to nonlethal. If you have merciful and flaming turned on, you deal normal damage+1d6 in nonlethal, and 1d6 fire. I need some quick clarification. Are you sure that DR doesn't stop the Vicious enchantment? I would like to see the sage advice about that. It seems to me that would be like saying that A +1 Dagger would always deal at least 1 damage to something with DR 20/Good because the +1 is unnamed magical energy damage. And doesn't the idea that Viscious bypasses DR, make it a much more amazing enchantment, because now you can hit all of those monsters with DR for 2d6 damage all the time no matter what type of DR they have? And yes, I AM biased. I'm in the middle of making a Vampire character who is going to use a Vicious weapon. I know it will come down to my DM's call, but deciding this online would be useful as well... Just my thoughts, Luckdragon.
Tony Vargas 05-23-06, 04:22 PM	I need some quick clarification. Are you sure that DR doesn't stop the Vicious enchantment? Yep. It seems to me that would be like saying that A +1 Dagger would always deal at least 1 damage to something with DR 20/Good because the +1 is unnamed magical energy damage. It's not, the +1 of a +1 dagger is an Enhancement bonus /to/ your AB with the weapon, and to the weapon's damage. It's named, and it's also of the type of the weapon. The +1 damage from a +1 dagger is 1 point of enhancement-piercing-slashing damage. And doesn't the idea that Viscious bypasses DR, make it a much more amazing enchantment, because now you can hit all of those monsters with DR for 2d6 damage all the time no matter what type of DR they have?Yes, but it also makes the damage /you/ take a very real limitation, since you can't just slap on some DR or ER and ignore it.
Keenath 05-24-06, 12:21 AM	Tony has it exactly right. A weapon enhancement bonus is a bonus. Thus, it's the same type as the weapon's damage -- just as an ability that gives +2 damage with fire spells means your fireball deals 2 additional fire damage. Your strength modifier is also a bonus to damage, and is the same type as the weapon. That's how we know what to multiply for a critical. If it's a bonus to the weapon's damage, it multiplies. If it's not (such as Flaming), it doesn't multiply. Vicious doesn't deal 2d6 bonus damage. It says, "This [disruptive] energy deals an extra 2d6..." It's specified as Energy damage, so it's not physical, and not subject to DR. Equally, it's not specified as being any particular element, you can't resist with ER. It's not even Force, so you can't block it with effects that stop force. The weapon is designed such that you simply can't avoid taking the backlash. That's on purpose.
Lotus Crane 05-24-06, 12:41 AM	Would the combination of DR and Vicious work to get no/little damage? Or does the 'magical' damage pass through the DR? It's debatable. Because no specific energy type is mentioned (like the elemental or elemental burst weapons), one might assume that the extra damage caused by an alignment, merciful, or vicious weapon is just added to the category of "weapon damage," along with Strength and other relevant bonuses. But in the games I've run, and the games I've played in, we've always allowed the vicious weapon + DR/- combo to work. It makes high level barbarians very happy, and generally amuses everybody else. "Gee, 1d6-3 points of damage to myself, let's see if I actually get hurt!" Vicious doesn't deal 2d6 bonus damage. It says, "This [disruptive] energy deals an extra 2d6..." It's specified as Energy damage, so it's not physical, and not subject to DR. Equally, it's not specified as being any particular element, you can't resist with ER. It's not even Force, so you can't block it with effects that stop force. The weapon is designed such that you simply can't avoid taking the backlash. That's on purpose. I disagree. I believe the "disruptive energy" in that reference is actually flavor text, rather than hard mechanics, especially because no type is given. At the very least, if it was actually energy rather than part of the weapon damage, I'd expect it to be the negative energy type, so certain anti-necromancy effects would protect the wielder from its effects. I don't believe that a simple +1 weapon property from the DMG should open a Pandora's Box of "typeless" energy damage. All damage, whether physical or magical, should be given a type. When it's not, I'm going to look for any and all other interpretations possible, because the last thing I want is the basis for the invention of new spells or items that take advantage of an essentially unstoppable attack.
Tony Vargas 05-24-06, 01:29 AM	the last thing I want is the basis for the invention of new spells or items that take advantage of an essentially unstoppable attack. I don't think it's such a basis. The unique thing about vicious is that it does damage to both the wielder and the target - if it were easy, or even possible, to block the damage to the wielder, it wouldn't be as meaningful a drawback (indeed, to the powergaming set, it would be a non-drawback). Now, I can see how the precedent of 'unnamed energy damage' might be disturbing in that sense, but just because it exists, doesn't mean you should casually decide to give any spell or item or whatever unnamed damage. At most, you'd look at vicious, and using it as a 'basis,' assign unamed damage to an attack only when it damages both the attacker and the target...
NobodyRemembersThis 05-24-06, 02:21 AM	We also have the same problem/issue with Bane weapons. The type of damage is unnamed. Thus, does the +2d6 there bypass DR, even if it does not qualify normally? The answer would be yes. Another issue then is also spells like Magic Missile. Magic Missile declares it Force damage. Last time I checked, that is still an unnamed energy type - just pure magical energy. So I believe there is already a precedent for viscious having an unnamed energy bonus.
Lotus Crane 05-24-06, 10:38 AM	Force damage is not unnamed, it's force damage. Force damage has its own specific properties, such as being able to effect incorporeal targets, but being stoppable by specific defenses. And I wouldn't take the "magic" bit too seriously. After all, a magic weapon still deals physical weapon damage (including its enhancement bonus), despite being "magic." When a specific energy type isn't explicitly mentioned like for the elemental and burst weapons, then I'm going to consider that part of the weapon damage (alignment, bane, merciful, and vicious). I don't think those properties should be so good (or in the case of vicious, so bad) that DR doesn't effect them. And in the case of vicious weapons, I like how the "DR applies" interpretation helps make adamantine armor actually attractive again, versus say, mithral. Mithral fullplate and mithral breastplate are probably the two most popular items that I see purchased or crafted by players again and again. If somebody goes to the trouble of getting adamantine fullplate instead, then I'd say he deserves a 50% chance take no damage from the vicious feedback, and a 50% chance to only take half as much.
Tony Vargas 05-24-06, 12:52 PM	I don't think those properties should be so good (or in the case of vicious, so bad) that DR doesn't effect them. On the offense side, it really doesn't make that much difference. 3.5 DRs are high enough that the weapon damage will often get through - the extra damage is gravy. Even if DR is so high (or weapon damage & bonuses so low), that the bypassing matters, you're talking one or two d6 in total damage. It can come up, but it's just not much of a potential problem. Besides, I think the alignment enchantments at least do damage that's 'sacred' or 'profane' or whatever, rather than outright unnamed; similarly merciful does non-lethal damage, maybe not named, exactly, but some creatures are unaffected by it; and the idea of Bane being 'unavoidable' for the target creature type isn't that bad when you consider how many other creatures are immune to it simply by being different types. And, vicious, well, it's unamed unavoidability is balanced by the equally unamedly unavoidable damage it does to it's own weilder. And in the case of vicious weapons, I like how the "DR applies" interpretation helps make adamantine armor actually attractive again, versus say, mithral. I don't think that's a very good justification for picking the more abuseable interpretation - that the abuse might make a little-used option more popular. I mean, there are much better sources of DR than adamantine, and it's almost trivially easy to tune your choice of vicious weapon to your source of DR to assure that you're always safe from it - making those two extra dice 'free.' Some examples: high-level Barbarians, with DR up to 5/- will only occassionally take a point from the weapon's backlash. In the meantime, they're free to get whatever it takes put on thier weapons to get through any target's DR - not that thier pre-vicious damage is likely to ever bounce completley, anyway. Vicious is thus 7 hps per hit in return for 1 hp on one of six attacks. 42:1 in favor of the wielder, instead of the intended 2:1. Righteous Might Clerics are pretty safe with DR/opposed alignment - thier vicious weapon will never have that alignment, afterall. And, again, they're free to use all available means to punch through whatever DR thier victims may have. Vicious is pure profit. Stoneskin gives DR/adamantine, with a cold iron vicious weapon and a vial of silversheen, you'll never take the backlash and rarely fail to bypass DR with your vicious damage. It goes on and on. There are many sources of DR, and whatever DR you happen to have, you just pick a vicious weapon that doesn't bypass it and you get +2d6 damage for the gp cost of +1d6 damage. Mithral fullplate and mithral breastplate are probably the two most popular items that I see purchased or crafted by players again and again.Nod. You see that a lot. The driving force is usually the max DEX. The lower stats tend to be in the campaign, the less of an issue it is. Run strict 25-pt buy or elite array and give out few dex-boosters and no inherent bonuses and you'll see more heavy armor and less mithral. If somebody goes to the trouble of getting adamantine fullplate instead, then I'd say he deserves a 50% chance take no damage from the vicious feedback, and a 50% chance to only take half as much. I think the DR/- of Adamantine is a nice enough reward. But, if you're seeing it underutilized, I'd rather boost the DR, or give it an AC bonus or something, rather than open up Vicious to systematic abuse by characters with higher DR/whatever.
Kary Wanzer 05-24-06, 01:56 PM	I've always treated vicious weapons the same way, for pretty much the same reasons LC stated. Any weapon property damage that doesn't get specifically typed, is weapon damage as far as I'm concerned. For the most part, I've always found vicious weapons to be rather poor choices, and in fact, I don't think a single PC or NPC in any game I've played in or run has ever been willing to use one of them unless they had DR, for the specific reason of reducing the damage they did to themselves. I don't think that's an exploit or loophole, I think it's just solid but legal optimization. "Oh hey look, we found a vicious weapon. Do we have a barbarian or somebody wearing admantine armor? No? Okay, I guess we sell it."
Vedic Cold 05-24-06, 03:04 PM	The extra damager from the Holy (and other alignment-based) enhancement and Bane enhancement are not given any mention of being energy damage. They state that these weapons deal extra damage against a particular type of foe, which would suggest that this is in fact weapon damage. Vicious is worded very differently. When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. I can't see this as mere flavor. It specifically states that the extra damage is inflicted by a backlash of magical energy, independent of the weapon itself, created upon striking a target. Damage to both the target and the wielder would be untyped energy damage, thus ignoring DR and energy resistances.
Lord Ian Stark 05-24-06, 03:44 PM	I can't see this as mere flavor. It specifically states that the extra damage is inflicted by a backlash of magical energy, independent of the weapon itself, created upon striking a target. Damage to both the target and the wielder would be untyped energy damage, thus ignoring DR and energy resistances. Agreed. This damage is not able to be ignored by DR. If you do that, you are giving a character a powerful weapon that does 2d6 extra damage for a +1 bonus to the weapon cost for free!?! If he can just negate all or most of the damage, your letting them powergame IMO. A +1 bonus that lets you dishout 2d6 damage without a drawback is broken and only broke because you ignored the text that says it's energy damage. I love how people will quickly say, "flavor text" when something is written that they want to go around in the RAW. :rolleyes:
Lotus Crane 05-24-06, 03:48 PM	Unless they give an energy type (at least negative energy, considering the prerequisites for crafting it), I consider it flavor text in the sense that the authors needed a way to explain how and why the weapon's wielder is taking damage from a roleplaying standpoint, but I don't accept the existence of truly untyped energy without an official clarification. Flavorwise, it just could have easily been "vicious weapons are always unnaturally jagged and cruel, with countless barbs and edges that seem to seek out flesh to tear. As a result, they deal an extra 2d6 points of damage to their target, but they also deal 1d6 points of damage to their wielder." And as I've already said, I don't think using DR to overcome the feedback of a vicious weapon is powergaming any more than usual. It actually gives people a reason to choose adamantine over mithral armor, effectively sacrificing 2 or more AC (and possibility some mobility) to use their weapon safely.
dragonseth 05-24-06, 04:40 PM	If Vicious weapons are suddenly stopped by DR, I think that would have MASSIVE side-effects. All of a sudden, every single creature/BBEG that has DR (most in my experience) have Vicious weapons. So now, they are getting double the payoff we are with our Flaming, Frost, etc weapons. I am loathe to call things overpowered because they can be abused, most anything can be, trust me, I've probably done it. BUT, I would consider this outrageous.
Luckdragon 05-24-06, 05:55 PM	Heh, didn't mean to open up such a debate again. Personally, I think that Viscious should be subject to DR. Now, I've got two character's going right now that both are going to be using Viscious weapons... One is a Ardent, who is based around the Pain and Suffering Mantle (With Empathic Transfer, Hostile) and a Vampire Warlock. The Ardent will very much appreciate having a weapon that deals backlash damage, because he WANTS to take damage, (Karmic Strike, +1 Falchion of Power Storing (Empathic Transfer, Hostile = Weapon Damge + 50, and 50 points of healing). With a weapon that can actually deal damage to HIM as well, will make his output that much greater (and mean that the party rouge can stop sneak attacking him to get his hit points down). However, he has DR as well, which means the weapon LOSES effectiveness for the character if it applies. So on this side, I don't want DR to apply. But the Vampire is using a +2 Keen Viscious Katana of Necrotic Focus. With his DR, I'd like it to apply so that I don't have to worry too much about him getting trashed by his own weapon (despite the fast healing and the Temporary hit point gain from the level drain, via Necrotic Focus...) Anyways, to me, it seems that giving players a method to deal 2d6 damage to ANYTHING (since no energy resistance, DR, or SR, will stop it) is a bad idea. Even though there is the 1d6 of backlash, generally, players have more access to healing than any baddy will. So they can afford the damage (monks with TWF and flurry, and two viscious weapons? anyone? Sure they would likely die in the process but they could deal a great deal of damage in a short time as well.) And BBEGs with a Viscious weapon? Ignoring any defense the PCs can create? That would be powergaming against my players, at its finest. I'm going to discuss this with my DM shortly anyways, and see what he things about it, but still.... Heh. Luckdragon
Luckdragon 05-24-06, 05:55 PM	Gah. Double post.
Tony Vargas 05-24-06, 06:44 PM	The Ardent will very much appreciate having a weapon that deals backlash damage, because he WANTS to take damage, (Karmic Strike, ...). I didn't catch all that, but Karmic Strike wouldn't be activated by backlash (I'm sure that's not what you're thinking, though). But I get the idea of 'wanting' to take damage. The new 'Berserker Strength' take on barbarian, for instance 'wants' to take damage - but damage still kills him, and the fact that the ability activates when you're hurt is a limitation on that ability - how you get hurt isn't really an issue. It's not like it's hard for an adventurer to get himself injured... But the Vampire is using a +2 Keen Viscious Katana of Necrotic Focus. With his DR, I'd like it to apply so that I don't have to worry too much about him getting trashed by his own weapon (despite the fast healing and the Temporary hit point gain from the level drain, via Necrotic Focus...)Sounds like it won't make too much of a difference - an average of 3.5 damage per hit vs 5 hps per level drained - you'll be coming out ahead either way, no? Anyways, to me, it seems that giving players a method to deal 2d6 damage to ANYTHING (since no energy resistance, DR, or SR, will stop it) is a bad idea. I just don't see it. It's not that hard to have a variety of damage type ready to bring to bear as apropriate, and the damage melee types (and vicious only aplies to melee) can dish out quickly eclipses 2d6 by itself (which, if you're worried about it getting past DR is what we're talking about - as long as the wielder does enough weapon damage to get even 1 point over the target's DR, then whether the 'unnamed energy' damage is aplied to the DR or not doesn't matter). It's a very un-scary prospect. And BBEGs with a Viscious weapon? Ignoring any defense the PCs can create? That would be powergaming against my players, at its finest. You can powergame vs me that way, anytime - if your BBEG can't punch through my stoneskin or Barbarian DR in the fist place (which would have to be the case for the Viscious DR-bypassing to matter at all), and he's planning on melee'ing, I don't think he'll be much of a problem. Plus, as you point out, PCs have a lot of healing access. If the BBEG is inflicting 2d6 damage/hit on you, and taking 1d6 himself, but you're being healed... :rolleyes: I'm going to discuss this with my DM shortly anyways, and see what he things about it, but still.... Heh.You're in luck, though, because either way, it works out well for one of your characters... :D