Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phantom Lord 10-29-04, 12:42 PM	This has a lot of background to it, but I'll try to keep it short and sweet: Basically, there have been only a handful of party deaths in my campaign, and the PCs have just about reached 14th level. My players (one in particular) seems to be getting cocky. There is an upcoming large-scale battle (almost 3000 combatants in all) and he volunteered his character to perform a pre-emptive "suicide run" :eek: (His words, not mine) to attack the spellcasters and commanders unaware, in hopes to kill them. I plan to not disappoint on the 'suicide run' part. I mean, come on, 2-3 PCs and 25 archers vs. an undead army, a Necro14, Blackguard15, Sorc15, and a lesser pit fiend. So, when I smear their characters all over the countryside, they should have seen it coming, right? Thanks for any and all replies.
ziggy_killroy 10-29-04, 12:46 PM	You should be thankful for when players dig their own graves for you. It sounds like a great game, but your players shouldn't be too suprised when they get smacked down.
Beamup 10-29-04, 12:49 PM	So they have enough information about what they're getting into to actually call it a suicide run? On their own heads be it, it's not your job to keep the PCs alive if they choose to do something they could tell was suicidal. Reminds me of the time one of my players decided to take on 6 level 10 Fighters with his level 12 Bard... singlehandedly in melee combat. They killed him, naturally. And I would've been doing him a disservice NOT to kill him.
Kakerate 10-29-04, 01:04 PM	This has a lot of background to it, but I'll try to keep it short and sweet: Basically, there have been only a handful of party deaths in my campaign, and the PCs have just about reached 14th level. My players (one in particular) seems to be getting cocky. There is an upcoming large-scale battle (almost 3000 combatants in all) and he volunteered his character to perform a pre-emptive "suicide run" :eek: (His words, not mine) to attack the spellcasters and commanders unaware, in hopes to kill them. I plan to not disappoint on the 'suicide run' part. I mean, come on, 2-3 PCs and 25 archers vs. an undead army, a Necro14, Blackguard15, Sorc15, and a lesser pit fiend. So, when I smear their characters all over the countryside, they should have seen it coming, right? Thanks for any and all replies. Well it seems that someone has put them up to fighting this army. Might I suggest that they first get "talked out of their obvious suicide" by some memoriable figure in your game. Someone they would show respect to. Dont use a god! Use some 45 year old fighter or someone who has seen the army. Someone Respectable. Also if they are suggesting doing this have some important figure who it would help offer to give them some magic items or offer some other assistance. By the way, a Pit fiend!! Those have 40ac! Maybe offer them a pair of --Bracers of true strike 1890gp, as spell truestrike Requirements: good alignment, standard action to activate(use magic device check DC 21) the spell, on a nat 1 if the check fails the item cannot be activated for 24 hours. Unlimited charges. Now if the fighter rolls a 10+ 15bab +2str +20truestrike = 57 He will pry want to add powerattack and other things, fighting defensively, combat expertise,ect.. Also a --Headband of Magic Device Usage 7000gp, +10 on all use magic device checks Requirements: good alignment and mayby a --medallion of sheild 3024gp, +4 ac sheild bonus as spell sheild(lasts 1min) Requirements: good alignment, standard action to activate(use magic device check DC 21) the spell, on a nat 1 if the check fails the item cannot be activated for 24 hours. ( 2 / day )
Huan 10-29-04, 01:25 PM	--Bracers of true strike 1890gp, as spell truestrike Requirements: good alignment, standard action to activate(use magic device check DC 21) the spell, on a nat 1 if the check fails the item cannot be activated for 24 hours. Unlimited charges. --Headband of Magic Device Usage 7000gp, +10 on all use magic device checks Requirements: good alignment --medallion of sheild 3024gp, +4 ac sheild bonus as spell sheild(lasts 1min) Requirements: good alignment, standard action to activate(use magic device check DC 21) the spell, on a nat 1 if the check fails the item cannot be activated for 24 hours. ( 2 / day ) ...and just where did you pull these items from?
BlackFiend 10-29-04, 01:34 PM	What...The heroic charge should always be praised. As a DM, I think any effort by players to go toe to toe against unbeatable odds should be gifted with a small window or glimmer chance of success. In this case, let a splendid opportunity to arise that gets the players all the way to the generals tent. When the PCs arrive, perhaps the culture of the 25 archers permits the concept of the strongest rule...giving the players a chance to fight the bad guys all by themselves without intervention to see who is the strongest. Give the PCs a reason to succeed and a possible way out. Make it heroic! As for a chance to survive, perhaps a hound archon or 2 are patiently observing this act of courage, and refuses to let the players fall without a fight. As soon as the archers begin to form a line to take down the PCs marching to the generals tents, the hound archons pounce on the archer line while riding dire boars. They turn and give the PCs the thumbs up to have at the general. Perhaps the PCs attack is used as a moment of betrayal by one of the forces of evil. The pit fiend turns on those who sought to barter his abilities, or the necromancer decides its time to cash in the sorceror and the pit fiend to consolidate power. Man...thats a GREAT game. There is never shame in a martyrs death, unless its a unheroic death. Make it a heroic end.
Kakerate 10-29-04, 02:02 PM	...and just where did you pull these items from? I wrote them up using the guidlines in the DMG for creating wonderous items.
Huan 10-29-04, 02:52 PM	If the players are acting thus on a huge ego, that is not heroic ... in which case, feel no remorse if their overconfidence gets them smeared. If that is not the case, then don't worry about it. Whatever happens happens (but likely, the well-played baddies should easily run over that resistance force ... run over the town ... give rise to a new twist in the story...). If your character is charging the 1000+ baddies by himself head-on ... he has it coming. But if he offers to play it smart, and sneak in, kill the commanders only with some well-laid plan, and leave the army leaderless, then you should let him and commend him on smart thinking. (but even so, by himself is iffy). (btw, Gloves of the Master Strategist [Ghostwalk] are 3,600 gp and they act exactly as a Glove of Storing only they grant you use of True Strike 1/day)
Kakerate 10-29-04, 03:52 PM	(btw, Gloves of the Master Strategist [Ghostwalk] are 3,600 gp and they act exactly as a Glove of Storing only they grant you use of True Strike 1/day) Whell, I have no real numbers for the power of being able to store(except from the glove) but I can calculate out the cost for true strike 1/day. But remember that adding a second ability to an item costs the higer costing ability double the normal for considering the price. or by storing did you mean spell storing?
Sensei Gith 10-29-04, 04:15 PM	Try to talk the characters out of it. Then kill them.
Kakerate 10-29-04, 04:16 PM	Glove of Storing: This device is a simple leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If an effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Price 10,000 gp (one glove). oh my! Those are a bargain! And for 3500 it gives you true strike 1/day! I calculate this Item at around(21,800) unless it is cursed! maybe you are buying it at the creators cost( 1 / 2 market price ) OR... If you want to strech the rules to the limits 2630gp total(but a DM will laugh in you face when you try to explain how storing an item in the glove or true strike is somehow related to quickness (ability requirment if you dont want to mult the cost by 1.5). Now that is if I want to make a glove of storing and add truestrike (1 / day) and sell it at market price. True strike (1 / day) unlimited charges costs 1800gp 3600(gloves from ghostwalk) -1800= 1800gp for storing power but how do the gloves activate? That is important in determining the cost! either way the actual cost for the gloves should be 21,800 so the cost for true strike (1/day) is 1800gp and the cost for storing power is 10,000gp(times 2 because gloves have 2 abilities,storing and truestrike). Man those gloves is broken! It also says in the Magic Item creation that the costs it lists are guidelines. That must mean that a DM can tweak the numbers if the item isn't particularly usefull. But I just dont see how the numbers on that storing got so low! I guess the Ghostwalk Dm thought that the storing power is worthless. Guess that DM didn't realize a stored wand of disintigrate or staff or anything can be easily put in there. then during battle pulled out(free action), used(standard action), put back(free action) there in disallowing anyone the ability to strike the wand/staff.
Kakerate 10-29-04, 04:30 PM	by the way Huan if you are DM try this with a caster level 7 cleric Flesh Golem Manual: The book contains animate dead, bull’s strength, geas/quest, and limited wish. The reader may treat her caster level as one level higher than normal for the purpose of crafting a flesh golem. The book supplies 780 XP for the creation of a flesh golem. Moderate enchantment, necromancy [evil], and transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Construct, creator must be caster level 8th, animate dead, bull’s strength, geas/quest, limited wish; Price 8,000 gp; Cost 2,050 gp + 944 XP; Weight 5 lb. You can make it cost 283gp + 944xp if you are able to make a umd check of DC28 and have an evil alignment but you may only try the UMD check once per day. And Wal'la you have big bad cleric with his big bad flesh golem. Can you say Frankenstein!
GoodTeletubby 10-29-04, 05:47 PM	KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE KEKEKEKE!!!!! ZOMBIE RUSH!!!! <.< >.> err... kill them, it's that simple, if you're going to charge headfirst into a massive army of undead, prepare to die, simple as that, and those archers should not stick around to be part of the fight, they should be running for their lives, that charge isn't bravery, it's stupidity and arrogance. Sounds to me like you've got General Custer on your hands
Kroll 10-30-04, 04:01 AM	A good plan is prepare the battle, roll your dices in the open (we always do that), if you roll 1000+ 1's they make it..if not they die. They can always run away. A beind the scene question might be if the players are tired of playing their charachters? A party that decides to go take on Larlock knows they are going to die, there shoudln't be other loop holes thant they come to their senses and decide to go other places.
tate 10-30-04, 04:15 AM	In regards to the gloves of true strike and such. . .wont happen. The rules for creating items have different formulas for attack bonuses (true strike) and armor class enhancement (shield). While it is possible to argue that true strike does not increase damage and shield does a shield instead of an armor bonus, I do not know of one single DM that would not allow these items into a game. It is way to unbalancing (my opinion, but it is widely held). According to character wealth by level, these items could be had a level 3-4. Assuming a fighter with 16 strength they would average hit 10+3+4+20=37 AC. That is pretty powerful (almost the pit fiend), and in almost all situations would be a "bad" DMing move. Believe me I tried to convince my DM it was okay, but he made a very good point and I wholeheartedly believe him now. Back to the real topic of the thread: I agree with Kroll that you should ask the players if the want to die. If yes, then give them some heroic demise. If no, then let them know that this will not be easy and they will need to plan. Give them a chance to live, but not some awful dues es machina ending. If they play well, they should live, but if not then splat. And the campaign does sound awesome, nice work DMing.
Alamar Meric 10-30-04, 12:58 PM	Let them go for the heroic charge, and roll it out. It is possible (although highly unlikely) that they might win. If they are going after a pit fiend, perhaps a Celestial creature will join their cause. Perhaps an unexpected ally (such as a cleric) will be inspired by their heroism and charge in behind them to cast some healing spells. Or, perhaps, they will simply die... If they do die, however, they should be rewarded for their heroism. If, for example, they roll up new characters or you start a new campaign, have this story circulating in the mouths of bards. When a player is trying to get his 2nd level character to 3rd and remembering his kick-ass 14th level character, he will undoubtedly like to hear a bard in a tavern tell the tale of the small band of adventurers who charged across the field against impossible odds. The charge may, for example, kill the players but demoralize the enemy to the point where they simply turn back. If they do... then the heroism means something. Just a thought. -Alamar Meric
The_Grikk 10-30-04, 01:41 PM	the point of this isnt to make kick a** characters (although that is a huge bonus) its to do kick a** s***. so If they want to do this than more power to them and if they make a plan and infiltrate the base and try to kill these poeple than that sounds like a REALLY fun advanture. Give'em a rouge and a wizard to help with moving around and picking locks, a map and let them do it. Dont forget a player can always run away (or use a wand of mass teleportation). If they die o-well, but if they kill the mian leaders of the force thats mad props and that should make the upcoming battle no problem to win the next moring. Just set up the barracks so its quazi-possible to catch most of the leaders slightly alone and se what the players do. If they charge in screaming i want to know how they made it to 14lv in the first place, and if they get away with it than awsome.
EmperorKO 10-30-04, 01:50 PM	My standard policy for DMing was always: 1. Extreme acts of heroism, if they work, entail massive XP bonuses; and 2. Failed extreme acts of heroism (i.e. extreme acts of stupidity) result in your death. For example, during one session one of my players was an exceptionally stupid and reckless half-orc barbarian, based on a grappling fighting style. During one attack, the enemy's wizard decided to keep himself out of harm's way by levitating over a 400 ft. deep chasm, where he could pelt the party with spells without fear of retribution. Crazy half-orc decided to go for the extreme act of heroism - he lept into the chasm, made his jump check, made a difficult, modified mid-air grapple check, clung to the wizard for several rounds, disrupting his spells and slowly dragging him downward. He was on track to pull the floating wizard down to the ground and pummel the bejesus out of him... until he pulled a critical failure on his grapple check and lost to the weakling wizard, who threw him off. At this point they were a good 300 ft. above the ground. Splat. Sorry. Later on in the same campaign (I allowed the character to be resurrected just because the player was so in love with him), crazy half-orc went for the intentionally suicidal attack, knowing full well what he was doing. He strapped a few kegs of "dwarven black powder" to himself, grabbed the enemy assassin and blew himself up. No question here, you're dead! I don't think it would be too mean to let this guy die in his frontal assault. If the player himself recognizes that doing so is probably suicide, if he fails his extreme act of heroism, let him die. I think that's reasonable. However, if he actually manages to pull this off through straight quality rollling, let him succeed and throw around XP like it's going out of style.
Ankheg 10-30-04, 06:00 PM	I say that if that one guy is so heroic to do that, have him accidently stumble into a room with some big crystal, but have a big old animated skeleton T-Rex gaurding it for "some reason." If he wins the fight, have the Rex get smashed backwards into the crystal, smashing most of it making most of the army crumble to bones and flesh, but at the same time the collapse of the room from the shock (most-likey) crushes the player. But, if the player loses the fight, have him be dead, plain and simple.
Crazy Runner Guy 10-30-04, 07:09 PM	1. Extreme acts of heroism, if they work, entail massive XP bonuses; and 2. Failed extreme acts of heroism (i.e. extreme acts of stupidity) result in your death. I agree wholeheartedly. Why would you play D&D if you weren't trying to be a hero? However, heroism is limited by intelligence (to a certain degree), and I would let these characters die. Remember "The Sandlot"? Heroes get remembered, but legends never die. If the party had won, they would be legends, and tales of their deeds would remain with the bards. If they lost (which they did), they should be heroes, but memories fade with time. This is another example of how realistic death can be in D&D. Adventuring is a dangerous enterprise, and death is ALWAYS a posible consequence. For example, during one session one of my players was an exceptionally stupid and reckless half-orc barbarian, based on a grappling fighting style. During one attack, the enemy's wizard decided to keep himself out of harm's way by levitating over a 400 ft. deep chasm, where he could pelt the party with spells without fear of retribution. Crazy half-orc decided to go for the extreme act of heroism - he lept into the chasm, made his jump check, made a difficult, modified mid-air grapple check, clung to the wizard for several rounds, disrupting his spells and slowly dragging him downward. He was on track to pull the floating wizard down to the ground and pummel the bejesus out of him... until he pulled a critical failure on his grapple check and lost to the weakling wizard, who threw him off. At this point they were a good 300 ft. above the ground. Splat. Sorry. That is one great story, and one crazy (but inventive) barb. crg
Megrim_Lord 10-30-04, 07:40 PM	If only your party knew the havoc a +1 spellstoring heavy crossbow and a handful of fireball spells could cause. pre-emptive strikes are so much fun, plus the only thing guaranteed to live through the attack unharmed is the pit fiend
guru7892 10-30-04, 07:51 PM	personally id tell him its a stupid idea out of game (this is a no brainer) and tell him that its up to him, but your not going to help him. hey is not your fault your players are stupid... and he better have cleave.... and some nice armor.
EmperorKO 10-30-04, 08:30 PM	That is one great story, and one crazy (but inventive) barb. Oh he was hilarious fun. The way the guy was playing the character was that he was so incredibly stupid he just didn't know any better and just had a taste for mayhem. I think his intelligence was a whopping 5 or something, and his charisma a 3 (BEFORE he died). Sadly, his second feat of heroism, the suicide bombing, didn't work out either. I didn't WANT the enemy assassin to die (he was actually an integral part of the story later on), but I figured since he came up with such a harebrained scheme, I'd do a bit of a re-write if he pulled it off. I rolled it legitimately, and his bombing managed to blow the guy into the next county... with 1 hp remaining. Dealt a total of 56 damage, he survived his massive damage save, and since he was a shade, his fast healing kept him fresh and ready for the next encounter. I even let the character come back AGAIN after I found some weird rule in the FR book about gods occasionally choosing mortals as instruments of their will and sending them back (I was having entirely too much fun DMing with a madman in the party, so I figured perhaps a god took notice of his reckless disregard for his own life and decided he wanted him around). He came back with a charisma of 1, having been put back together after reducing himself to a pile of bloody shrapnel. Good times, good times.
Ankheg 10-30-04, 11:18 PM	I even let the character come back AGAIN after I found some weird rule in the FR book about gods occasionally choosing mortals as instruments of their will and sending them back (I was having entirely too much fun DMing with a madman in the party, so I figured perhaps a god took notice of his reckless disregard for his own life and decided he wanted him around). He came back with a charisma of 1, having been put back together after reducing himself to a pile of bloody shrapnel. Good times, good times. Now see, that's what i hate about DMs these days, if they're too lazy to really think up a good thing, they use the gods.
EmperorKO 10-31-04, 01:19 AM	Now see, that's what i hate about DMs these days, if they're too lazy to really think up a good thing, they use the gods. That was the first and only time I ever used the intercession of gods. See, I'm no veteran gamer by a longshot. I only started playing the game during AD&D 2nd, and used Forgotten Realms material for the first time in that very gaming session with the insane barb (well into 3rd ed's run). To me, the idea of a god personally intervening to create a being of vengeance was pretty innovative. In my own defense, I do try to make it a point to never use any aspect of the same story twice, so I've never done it again and don't plan to. Plus, when I had him brought back in such a way, it wasn't like a god just propped him back up again, he had a mission he had to achieve that integrated quite well into the rest of the campaign.
Keenath 10-31-04, 01:54 AM	There's nothing wrong with the occasional divine intervention! C'mon, why does your world even HAVE gods if you're never, ever going to use them? If it's hamhanded and clunky, sure, that's one issue. If it's a well-written piece of plot, it's fine, and interesting. Why would you denigrate somebody's work when you don't know them, haven't seen their adventure, and don't even know what the situation's backstory was?
Toptomcat 10-31-04, 02:18 PM	It can even be frustrating if you use the gods TOO LITTLE. In one campaign I was recently in, the PCs had to go it alone to stop a massively powerful, genocidal angel from killing an entire plane. Not ONCE did the gods step in to save their worshippers, even though the whole thing was the result of a power play gone awry from the upper echelons...it was a little ridiculous.
Grox 10-31-04, 03:03 PM	he volunteered his character to perform a pre-emptive "suicide run" :eek: (His words, not mine) to attack the spellcasters and commanders unaware, in hopes to kill them. I plan to not disappoint on the 'suicide run' part. I mean, come on, 2-3 PCs and 25 archers vs. an undead army, a Necro14, Blackguard15, Sorc15, and a lesser pit fiend. So, when I smear their characters all over the countryside, they should have seen it coming, right? Right.
simen_88 10-31-04, 06:27 PM	Heroism is fun! Try to give them a bit of aid, an invisibility spell can go a long way here, especially combined with fly. Of course, they're dead meat if a single die roll goes bad.
Crazy Runner Guy 10-31-04, 06:40 PM	It can even be frustrating if you use the gods TOO LITTLE. I wouldn't go as far as saying divine intervention NEEDS to occur, but I will say that nearly every campaign (not all, but most) should have a central power capable of wielding vast good or evil. If it comes from a church (and their holy armies) or it comes from politicking kings, so be it. There needs to be one being or organization capable of swaying that power. crg
Ringmereth 10-31-04, 07:55 PM	I would have a powerful NPC-a veteran fighter, the king's advisor, or a protecting wizard try and talk the party out of the suicidal attack. If anyone remains focused on doing it, have the NPC hand out some powerful magic item- a Holy Disrupting mace, an Undeath to Death or Antimagic scroll, or an item granting spell resistance- to each heroic/suicidal character. The fight should still be deadly, but if they're smart and go in with a plan instead of just charging, they should have a chance of surviving, or at least going down gloriously.