Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maryk_Keiros 03-17-06, 10:44 PM	Ok, my friend figures, with his logic this can work: (Name undisclosed) says: true strike is a first level spell. for a continuous spell effect, channeled into a body slot type item, the formula is <2000x spell level x caster level> Now if he says if you put these on bracers or something, would you get +20 to all attack rolls? He's wrong, right? Sorry this wasn't supposed to be a question, this was supposed to be a 'Hey, my friend is doing something wrong', thanks, sorry for the bad writing.
Raven Dark 03-17-06, 10:48 PM	Ok, my friend figures, with his logic this can work: (Name undisclosed) says: true strike is a first level spell. for a continuous spell effect, channeled into a body slot type item, the formula is <2000x spell level x caster level> Now if he says if you put these on bracers or something, would you get +20 to all attack rolls? The pricing guidelines for makign magical items in the DMG are jsut that...GUIDELINES. What's more they are under the complete purview of the DM, that is why they are in the DMG. No self-respecting DM would allow that item in a pre-epic game. It would also cost a hell of a lot more (like in the millions).
Dalthbar 03-17-06, 10:49 PM	The formula for making magical items clearly states that these are _guidelines_ and it's been discussed here at length that certain things are HORRIBLY broken if you follow these suggestions verbatim. If it sounds overpowered for the price, then it likely is. At the end of the day, the DM _always_ has the final say and should _always_ override a rule if it would completely break his campaign setting. If they were so easy to make, then everyone would have them - have this player go up against an opponent that was using it - hell... have this player go up against a small hoard of goblins or kobalds that had them. He'll quickly change his tune - WHEN HE'S DEAD. Tell him to stop being an idiot and wisen up. :)
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-17-06, 10:50 PM	He's retarded. The spell effects the next attack only. Even if you made the waiting duration permanent, that would just last until the first attack you made, then discharge and be ended.
Inigo Carmine 03-17-06, 11:04 PM	As other people have said: No, just...No. Whehn it comes to item creation, there is a list of recomended steps. The very first one would be to compare it to a similar item already outlined in the DMG and price it according to that. That would be magic weapons; and a +20 magic weapon costs 8 million gold if I'm not mistaken (bonus^2 *2000, all times 10 because it's over the 200,000g mark and therefore epic). This also adds to damage, but I'd consider that about as useful as ignoring cover AC bonuses and concealment miss chances. Also, the fact that this doesn't apply specifically to one item would make it worth about 2x as much imo. so we're at 16 million gold. If you also allowed this bonus to stack with already existing weapon enhancement bonuses, I'd probably double the entire price again and put it at 32kk gold. This might be a reasonable price. The DMG says the guidelines in general are subject to failure in certain situations (especially when using priced-by-spell guidelines) and should always be up to DM approval (this and items that cast cure spells are the most common examples of why). Any new item added is essentially a house rule, so DMs shouldn't be afraid to just outright disallow it, just like they might outright disallow a feat with no pre-reqs that gives you +1,000 HP.
runestar 03-18-06, 12:29 AM	He's not retarded, just too darn naive to think that for a moment, any sane dm might actually comtemplate allowing such items in a game. ;)
High Octane 03-18-06, 01:34 AM	First off the effect wocouldnt be continuous or it would be discharged after one attack. It would have to be a command driven effect done before each attack. So then it would take him a standard action to use it for the effect and another standard action to attack (Or a full round action for a full attack) which equates to 2 rounds of action. Then its NOT broken.
Novacat 03-18-06, 01:48 AM	Ah, yes. I was wondering when this question would pop up again. It's either been longer than usual, or I've just been missing them.
BaelinWhale 03-18-06, 02:07 AM	One of the most popular issues that come up in game :) This has been addressed in the Rules of the Game article on the WotC website. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring oftrue strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range. Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use-activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain. So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring. Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs.
Egres 03-18-06, 07:36 AM	Sword of True Striking Every attack with this weapon is made at +20 to hit. strong brokenation Prerequisites: CL novice; 5 ranks in Stupid DM, 20 levels in munchkin player; Market Price: unavailable in most campaigns; freely given in Oz. ;):D
stabs 03-18-06, 09:48 AM	Just a vaguely related story: I once had an item for sale in a game I was DMing called: "Mage Slayer: The Sword of True Striking" It cost 500gp or something low like that. A good bardic knowledge roll would tell you the sword had only ever killed one mage; the crafter who drove it through his own eye socket after spending months making a blade that he shortly thereafter discovered was only good for a one-shot use.
zlatko 03-18-06, 09:54 AM	The rules say it's 400,000gp. It is a +20 item. Btw, I think its retarded to call ppl retarded even if they are.
Khelvaster 03-18-06, 11:30 AM	The spell true strike doesn't have a duration that can be made conitnuous though. It is until discharged, so you can't make it continuous. An intelligent item with the ability casts quickened true strike at will and with the dancing ability would work, but that is hella expensive.
Fighter1 03-18-06, 11:59 AM	My group went through similar things when we all got on the "make new magic item" bandwagon. If you look at most of the published items; very few have spells below 3rd level (caster or the actual spell). With any 1st level spell you can get over big time; the difference between making an item at first level and second level is astronomical - which is one reason for the DM's intervention. As a rule of thumb in our group - if the spell has a duration of Instantaneous it cannot be made continuous; it can be made to have charges per day or whatever; but not continuous. with that Charge multiplier (5 divided by the # of charges per day) things get real pricey after that 5th charge.
Fighter1 03-18-06, 12:00 PM	The rules say it's 400,000gp. It is a +20 item. Btw, I think its retarded to call ppl retarded even if they are. Now that is a VERY interesting idea; as it is a weapon bonus after all...
risner 03-18-06, 12:49 PM	Ok, my friend figures, with his logic this can work: (Name undisclosed) says: true strike is a first level spell. for a continuous spell effect, channeled into a body slot type item, the formula is <2000x spell level x caster level> Now if he says if you put these on bracers or something, would you get +20 to all attack rolls? There is a part of the price he is forgetting. The multiplication factor is based on the duration of the spell and the shortest duration provided is 4 times for 1 round/level. The "next strike" is shorter than 1 round (so two more factors shorter than 1 round / level?) Considering that this would probably be ruled an invalid spell to add to a continual item by most resonable GM's, lets try to come up with a factor to stamp on it. Say 1 round vs 1 round / level is 4 times? So 4X for 1 round/level becomes 16X for 1 round. Say 1 attack is also 4 times (the max number of BAB based attacks), so 16X becomes 64X for "next attack." Most items are created with the minimum caster level of the item creation feat unless the item is a rather weak item (this is not weak), so caster level 3 for the 1st level spell. So, 64 (factor for continual) * 2000 (cost) * 3 (caster level) * 1 (level of spell) or 384000 gp I probably still wouldn't allow it for 384k, that seems too inexpensive.
irzg9zh3psgq3m09 03-18-06, 01:35 PM	Your friend isn't retarded, he's just very clever at exploiting the rules. I would consider it 600k, taking the 400k from BaelinWhale's post and multiplying it by 1.5 because of the multiple different abilities adjustment. Or you can forget about market value altogether and make it an artifact, like Bracers of [insert fighting/war-based deity] that grants true strike on every attack. If your friend wants it, make him fight the person/creature who has it equipped. A titan, to be more specific. :D
eeen13 03-18-06, 02:24 PM	and think from the merchants point of view if you had a weapon that caused this much fuss and had that much power would you sell it for so little?
supernerd8916 03-18-06, 02:31 PM	give it charges and a limit to how much it can be used. still probably epic level
Xeonas 03-18-06, 02:42 PM	Ok, I think that we've all come to the conclution that Magic item of True Striking = wrong. While we're at this, I'd like to bring up a slightly related problem: Boots of Jumping. By strictly following the fomula, these things come out to about 4,000 gp. Of course, that can't be right seeing as how that would give you a +30 to jump. However, I cant really see a realistic way to keep someone from just making it as a comand word item. It's not like True Strike where it gets expended each time you use it once. A person could just use the item at any point in time and jump say the word again when the time ran out. How could that be balanced?
irzg9zh3psgq3m09 03-18-06, 02:55 PM	While we're at this, I'd like to bring up a slightly related problem: Boots of Jumping. By strictly following the fomula, these things come out to about 4,000 gp. Of course, that can't be right seeing as how that would give you a +30 to jump. I think you mean Ring of Jumping, but the +30 is only in 3.0. In 3.5, they changed it to +5 or +10. And actually, by 3.0 guidlines in creating magic items, the Ring of Jumping should be 18,000 gp (30 squared * 20). Amazing how they're only 2,000 though.
Feor 03-18-06, 04:40 PM	Well, a ring of jumping isn't as expensive as an item of true strike because reall,y in day to day use, being able to jump higher isn't going to be that advantageous. Even at +30 it'd only let you jump 30 feet with a running start (assuming no ranks) or 8 feet straight up. Impressive, certainly, but not something that'll let you fell CR10 creatures, singlehandedly, at level 3. As to the item of True Strike, I'd allow it if it were a X/day type item. Probably not more than 2 or 3 times per day, though.
Ealrion 03-18-06, 06:00 PM	i'd say he's mistaken, but no where do you include anything that would lead me to believe that he's "retarded."
MingThing 03-18-06, 06:09 PM	the ring of jumping doesn't remove the max jump distance, wich is a number based on your char. height
Raven Dark 03-18-06, 06:25 PM	the ring of jumping doesn't remove the max jump distance, wich is a number based on your char. height That rule didn't carry over to v3.5 D&D.
zlatko 03-18-06, 08:02 PM	When I said the rules say then I really meant it. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a Enough said.
Merestil Haye 03-18-06, 08:21 PM	When I said the rules say then I really meant it. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a Enough said.1.. The linked article is not a rulebook, online or otherwise. It is an article about the rules. 2. It is simply wrong about the price of the ring. A Ring of True Strike provides a +20 insight bonus to attack rolls. The price of a +20 enhancement bonus bonus to attack and damage on a weapon is bonus squared times one thousand, then multiplied again by 10 since +20 is an epic-level bonus. The cost of a +20 bonus is therefore is eight million gold pieces. Now while it is true that the True Strike bonus applies only to attack rolls, it is also true that it will stack with normal types of bonus to attack rolls, and that Power Attack can turn those bonuses to hit into bonuses to damage quite easily. Therefore, the suggested price of the ring should be between 4 and 8 million gp, depending on the DMs view of the importance of the stackability and Power Attack. Personally, I would price it at no less than 5,000,000gp and probably much closer to the higher figure. Skips articles can be useful, but he does not get everything right all the time, and that is the case here since he left out a zero.
irzg9zh3psgq3m09 03-18-06, 10:29 PM	Well, a ring of jumping isn't as expensive as an item of true strike because reall,y in day to day use, being able to jump higher isn't going to be that advantageous. Even at +30 it'd only let you jump 30 feet with a running start (assuming no ranks) or 8 feet straight up. Impressive, certainly, but not something that'll let you fell CR10 creatures, singlehandedly, at level 3. Well, if you have Leap Attack and Battle Jump, you can dish out a heck of a lot of damage. If you charge and jump at least 10 feet horizontally, you perform the leap attack, which doubles your power attack ratio (triples when wielding a weapon in two hands), and if you jump at least 5 feet above your opponent, you perform the battle jump, which doubles your charge damage. So you can power attack -1 for +6 damage (maxed out at -20 for +120), and multiply the results by 2 to get a whopping +240 damage. The ring of jumping really, really helps with these jump DC's to perform these feats. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I'm wondering if any of you DM's would actually allow a character to get this item if he had the money (however expensive it is). Would you guys let him make it/buy it? Also, if someone were to make it, remember one very important thing. It takes one day per 1000 gp to create a magic item. Well, from the numbers we're seeing on this thread (hundreds of thousands to millions), it would take years to make this thing! If it were 5 million gp, as Merestil Haye says, it'd take 13 years and 252 days to make it.
Ogre4Hire 03-18-06, 11:49 PM	I'd let a player build a magic item like the one the OP described. And then I'd even let him roll up a new character after his existing character was randomly struck by a Black Hole. :thumbsdow
SwiftFox 03-19-06, 08:46 AM	I dont think theres a problem here, considering that all magic items not explicitly listed in the DMG require arbitration from the DM to create... and if I was the DM in question, I would not have a problem with this item... Id simply make it a +1 equivilent enchant to a weapon, that is usable 1/day.
Chrono Nexus 03-19-06, 09:59 AM	Continuous Truestrike weapons are utterly broken... A ring/melee weapon that gives the wearer true strike 1/day (needs 24 hrs. to attune) would be acceptable. Ammunition of true striking is alright (each would cost 2000 gp.)
Kyuketsukiouji 03-19-06, 10:15 AM	It's a perfectly valid item. But, honestly, 2,000 gp for +20 to a single attack is pretty expensive for my tastes. But hey, if he wants to be sure to be able to make a hit who knows how long down the line, his item's the right one. One hit, though. That's what the spell says.
jrg2118 03-19-06, 10:52 AM	A True Strike 1/day ring would cost a minimum of 8000. Since it is a use-activated that doesn't deplete (i.e. no charges) with a duration of 1 round, the cost multiplier is x4 (see footnote). At any rate, the formulas are only guidelines. Consider the Lantern of Revealing. According to the formula it would cost 60000 gold, but the worth of the item was estimated to be 1/2 that (they basically ignored the duration footnote). For 750 gp base, you could have a ring/rod/etc. of true strike with 50 charges. That way you can use them all up in one day or spread them out however you want. You could easily increase the cost to represent the benefit for your game. In mine, I would not let such an item go for under 15000 gp. If this seems like a lot, remember the character is basically paying 15 gp per +1 to hit. ;) As for the Continuous True Strike ring/weapon/whatever..., I would probably make the cost closer to 80000 gp and inform the player that is can only be used on 1 attack per round! Cheers, -Jim
zlatko 03-19-06, 11:31 AM	Doh. A single use per day item would be 400gp. Or 360 gp. The formula is Spell level * Caster Level * 2000gp Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) for a use activated item. Its *1800gp for a command word. A sword enchantment that gives you true strike once per day on a command word would be 1*1*1800/5=360gp. A ring of continuous true striking would still cost 400,000gp Read the whole damn text.
jrg2118 03-19-06, 12:18 PM	A sword enchantment that gives you true strike once per day on a command word would be 1*1*1800/5=360gp. You forgot the footnote and should x4 your price. Maybe you should read all the text next time? :D Regardless, how did you come up with 400000 gp? (Just curious...) Cheers, -Jim
Fighter1 03-19-06, 01:00 PM	I'd let a player build a magic item like the one the OP described. And then I'd even let him roll up a new character after his existing character was randomly struck by a Black Hole. :thumbsdow Interesting Idea... Along those same lines: after talking with my gaming buddies we came up with some fun stuff: Let him have someone make the item (or he does). #1 Eventually (hours, days weeks, whatever) word gets out about this thing. -Since it is so powerful of course everyone wants it; especially the highest level agents of good and evil! -His puny little PC is caught between a 40th level Paladin and a 40th Level Blackguard hammering it out over the thing...with armies of Celestials and Demons all around… -The devastation caused by this great battle is horrific; and the PC is of course held to blame for bringing it upon the people…he is now hunted and wanted for millions of GP of a bounty…he won’t be escaping that one by skirting to the other side of the mountains or sea! #2 Since it is so powerful it, by default becomes an intelligent item of the highest possible power -I am not familiar with the rules on intelligent items but I do know that would be enough to dominate any non-epic level character; interesting if it were of the opposite alignment as the PC. #3 Since it is so powerful bad things happen every time it is used (in this case – continuously). -He ages randomly, wets his pants, gets bad acne, gets a nasty disease… #4 His god (or A god) pops down to visit and takes it –After all why should some puny mortal have such a wondrous thing! #5 Eventually (hours, days weeks, whatever) word gets out about this thing. -A band of 20th level rouges steals it (with ease mind you) and you never see it again until you hear about a great battle between a 40th level Paladin and a 40th Level Blackguard a few hundred miles away in some other nation or another. #6 While the creator and the PC are in the building -the creator is of such a low level; and trying to make the thing; it all blows up doing 60d6 damage to everyone inside. (this lAst one is hard to rationalize; but hey so are your player’s notions!)