Ambush - Hit & Run Tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ambush - Hit & Run Tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rogerd
06-14-06, 10:01 AM I was thinking about a combat situation where the party are harried by enemies in a forest. The idea is to hide in an ambush position, then fire arrows at the party. Repeat firing the arrows until the party gets "too close", then run and hide. Rinse. Repeat.

The question I guess is how to manage ending the combat. When do combat rounds end? The party "knows" the enemies are out there, but this hinges on the party not knowing when to expect them to strike next, and their ability to dish out damage while the enemies are detected.

Anyone have success with this kind of situation? I could see the party being the ambushers as a fun scenario too. If the party or enemies were a group of druids and rangers with Woodland stride, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to use these tactics in a forest.
Sunrider
06-14-06, 10:23 AM I've used nonmagical snipers/sniper teams to great success, both as a DM and as a player. The key thing is to focus on the ratio of damage inflicted vs damage taken, not damage per round. You won't outdamage the party barbarian - probably not even the party rogue - but, done correctly, the ambushers won't take much damage either.

Note that the key word is 'nonmagical' - I'm sure you can do better with magic and/or by 'sniping' from within 30', but it's just not the same.

Just a few useful tips for the snipers:

- Human. Able Learner is too good to pass up if you intend to multiclass Fighter/Ranger.
- 12 Int minimum, preferably 16 (if the sniper's operating solo). Solo/two-player campaigns call for high point-buy, primarily due to skill requirements.
- Crossbow Sniper and Rapid Reload feats with light crossbow (or, at least, a weapon with the mechanics of a light crossbow - I like to use a spring-loaded airgun myself; they've existed for centuries, and a military-grade one delivers just as much KE as a crossbow, with a higher velocity and flatter trajectory. Complex machines, though, which is why crossbows and, later, muskets, were much more common). Your Dex is going to be high, and this allows you to skimp on Str. Also, you won't be firing more than once per round if you're sniping, and this way, you do more damage per shot and can fire prone (cover allows you to hide and improves your AC against ranged attacks, and you can gain cover behind a rock while prone).
- If you have Fighter levels and are high-enough level, go for WS/RWM/GWS. Damage for ranged attackers is hard to come by.
- Try to get at least one level of Cragtop Archer in. Doubling your Spot distance is invaluable...
- Get the Woodland Sniper and Concealed Ambush (Dragon mag) feats. The former is great for running battles, while the second reduces the penalty for hiding after taking a shot from -20 to -10. If you have enough feats, get Able Sniper as well (attack bonus while sniping, and a further +4 to hide checks while sniping).
- Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently are mandatory skills. Climb is needed for Cragtop Archer (and is useful anyway for a sniper), while at least one member of a sniper team should have Survival. For a solo sniper, this means you...
- Make sure you have the Darkstalker feat.
- Quick Reconnoitre is a very useful feat to have, should you have enough spare feats to take it.
- When you have the feats to spare, Shot on the Run can be useful should you be spotted. Not a priority, though.
- Pure ranger snipers do less damage and will have less feats, but gain the very-useful Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight abilities. Not so good in urban environments, though - for an urban sniper, the Ranger/Fighter/Cragtop Archer combination is great. It's up to you - I've used both.

Basically, you want to engage at long range and turn it into a long-lasting battle. Even with good equipment (+5 Collision, Sure Striking, Magebane light crossbow plus Greater Bracers of Archery), WS/GWS/RWM and 34 Dex, you'll only be doing 27.5 damage per shot on average. The thing is, if you do it correctly, your opponents will be doing exactly 0 damage per round. Make it a sniper team (with a few lower-level snipers) and damage per round goes up considerably. Remember, your target will be spending time looking for you. All the while, you'll be sniping. Go for spellcasters first, followed by anyone who looks like they may have a good Spot skill. If your DM allows, snipe out some of the equipment/mounts/other gear as well. Make use of the Moving Sniper ability granted by Woodland Archer - keep your distance from the target. Also, prolonging the battle this way negates many of the most dangerous features of certain classes. Barbarian rage, Dervish dance, etc. become useless. Spell durations will run out. And, if your luck runs out, you can easily escape and fight another day.

Finally, flaws and traits are your friend. Quick is a great trait to have - the extra 10' movement really helps. Noncombatant and Vulnerable don't hurt you much and give you two extra, valuable feats.
OravennasBrother
06-14-06, 12:44 PM If you are asking how to "End Combat" in order to get another sneak attack against flatfooted opponents, then refer to the evasion section in the Carrying Movement and Exploration portion of the SRD, or the same rules in the PHB. THE DMG section of the SRD does not have any clarification, thoug IIRC there is a section in the Book itself. Essentially combat continues until one side breaks away, then a "new" encounter can begin with one side or the other flat footed.
rogerd
06-15-06, 10:15 AM Sunrider: Thanks for the ideas for character builds. I'm looking at this more from a DM perspective. I doubt I'd build a specialist for the situation I have in mind, but you have some good thoughts there.

OravennasBrother: I see those rules, I guess I was wondering what kind of experience people have running this kind of situation. Since the PCs may not see the ambushers as they run away, but might be able to after pursuing a round, I guess I was wondering when you shift over to the evasion/pursuit rules. For example, I could see a wizard blasting off a fireball into the forest to try to roast the attackers, even if they can't see the targets.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rogerd 06-14-06, 10:01 AM	I was thinking about a combat situation where the party are harried by enemies in a forest. The idea is to hide in an ambush position, then fire arrows at the party. Repeat firing the arrows until the party gets "too close", then run and hide. Rinse. Repeat. The question I guess is how to manage ending the combat. When do combat rounds end? The party "knows" the enemies are out there, but this hinges on the party not knowing when to expect them to strike next, and their ability to dish out damage while the enemies are detected. Anyone have success with this kind of situation? I could see the party being the ambushers as a fun scenario too. If the party or enemies were a group of druids and rangers with Woodland stride, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to use these tactics in a forest.
Sunrider 06-14-06, 10:23 AM	I've used nonmagical snipers/sniper teams to great success, both as a DM and as a player. The key thing is to focus on the ratio of damage inflicted vs damage taken, not damage per round. You won't outdamage the party barbarian - probably not even the party rogue - but, done correctly, the ambushers won't take much damage either. Note that the key word is 'nonmagical' - I'm sure you can do better with magic and/or by 'sniping' from within 30', but it's just not the same. Just a few useful tips for the snipers: - Human. Able Learner is too good to pass up if you intend to multiclass Fighter/Ranger. - 12 Int minimum, preferably 16 (if the sniper's operating solo). Solo/two-player campaigns call for high point-buy, primarily due to skill requirements. - Crossbow Sniper and Rapid Reload feats with light crossbow (or, at least, a weapon with the mechanics of a light crossbow - I like to use a spring-loaded airgun myself; they've existed for centuries, and a military-grade one delivers just as much KE as a crossbow, with a higher velocity and flatter trajectory. Complex machines, though, which is why crossbows and, later, muskets, were much more common). Your Dex is going to be high, and this allows you to skimp on Str. Also, you won't be firing more than once per round if you're sniping, and this way, you do more damage per shot and can fire prone (cover allows you to hide and improves your AC against ranged attacks, and you can gain cover behind a rock while prone). - If you have Fighter levels and are high-enough level, go for WS/RWM/GWS. Damage for ranged attackers is hard to come by. - Try to get at least one level of Cragtop Archer in. Doubling your Spot distance is invaluable... - Get the Woodland Sniper and Concealed Ambush (Dragon mag) feats. The former is great for running battles, while the second reduces the penalty for hiding after taking a shot from -20 to -10. If you have enough feats, get Able Sniper as well (attack bonus while sniping, and a further +4 to hide checks while sniping). - Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently are mandatory skills. Climb is needed for Cragtop Archer (and is useful anyway for a sniper), while at least one member of a sniper team should have Survival. For a solo sniper, this means you... - Make sure you have the Darkstalker feat. - Quick Reconnoitre is a very useful feat to have, should you have enough spare feats to take it. - When you have the feats to spare, Shot on the Run can be useful should you be spotted. Not a priority, though. - Pure ranger snipers do less damage and will have less feats, but gain the very-useful Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight abilities. Not so good in urban environments, though - for an urban sniper, the Ranger/Fighter/Cragtop Archer combination is great. It's up to you - I've used both. Basically, you want to engage at long range and turn it into a long-lasting battle. Even with good equipment (+5 Collision, Sure Striking, Magebane light crossbow plus Greater Bracers of Archery), WS/GWS/RWM and 34 Dex, you'll only be doing 27.5 damage per shot on average. The thing is, if you do it correctly, your opponents will be doing exactly 0 damage per round. Make it a sniper team (with a few lower-level snipers) and damage per round goes up considerably. Remember, your target will be spending time looking for you. All the while, you'll be sniping. Go for spellcasters first, followed by anyone who looks like they may have a good Spot skill. If your DM allows, snipe out some of the equipment/mounts/other gear as well. Make use of the Moving Sniper ability granted by Woodland Archer - keep your distance from the target. Also, prolonging the battle this way negates many of the most dangerous features of certain classes. Barbarian rage, Dervish dance, etc. become useless. Spell durations will run out. And, if your luck runs out, you can easily escape and fight another day. Finally, flaws and traits are your friend. Quick is a great trait to have - the extra 10' movement really helps. Noncombatant and Vulnerable don't hurt you much and give you two extra, valuable feats.
OravennasBrother 06-14-06, 12:44 PM	If you are asking how to "End Combat" in order to get another sneak attack against flatfooted opponents, then refer to the evasion section in the Carrying Movement and Exploration portion of the SRD, or the same rules in the PHB. THE DMG section of the SRD does not have any clarification, thoug IIRC there is a section in the Book itself. Essentially combat continues until one side breaks away, then a "new" encounter can begin with one side or the other flat footed.
rogerd 06-15-06, 10:15 AM	Sunrider: Thanks for the ideas for character builds. I'm looking at this more from a DM perspective. I doubt I'd build a specialist for the situation I have in mind, but you have some good thoughts there. OravennasBrother: I see those rules, I guess I was wondering what kind of experience people have running this kind of situation. Since the PCs may not see the ambushers as they run away, but might be able to after pursuing a round, I guess I was wondering when you shift over to the evasion/pursuit rules. For example, I could see a wizard blasting off a fireball into the forest to try to roast the attackers, even if they can't see the targets.