Ammunition Math Not Adding-Up [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ammunition Math Not Adding-Up [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Blaque
01-05-06, 04:46 PM Well, with me being in probably too many games, I decided to sign onto a D&D game coming up and taking the role of the trap-taker-outer sort. I decided to try and give ranged attacks some try, mainly crossbows, and found something weirding me out some.

Namely, I looked up the cost of enhanced and masterwork ammuntion, and the math on the charts they have in the SRD atleast don't seem to add up.

According to the section on gear, masterwork ammo is +6 gp per unit. I assume that means that 20 MW arrows, 10 crossbow bolts or sling bullets, 5 repeating crossbow bullets, or something, which usually cost 1 gp each, totaling 7 gp for so many mw pieces of ammo.

Now, take the crossbow bolts then. According to this, the 50 crossbow bolts you can put an enhancement on would csot 35 gp ([5x10 bullets)x7 each). However, the price for 50 mw bullets according to the SRD and the DMG is 350! That's 7 gp per bolt.

Well, that'd make sense, but the math there doesnt'w ork either. If by "each unit" they meant each bolt, then that would be 6 gp and 1 sp, or 6.1 gp each. Fifty of of that still is only costs 305 gp, which is sitll 45 short of the DMG prices.

Additionally, arrows, which cost half as much by these prices, still cost 350, when they should even by the higher number cost 155 gp for a set of 50.

Was 350 for 50 pieces of ammo just an arbitrary number they choose, or is there something I'm missing mathwise?

Stuff.
Morotis
01-05-06, 05:28 PM No, you have it all wrong...
The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition).
That means that 20 masterwork arrows costs 141 gp (1+7X20)

If you look at the Table 7-9: Weapons, on page 222 of the DMG, you'll see this
This price is for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets.
That means if you want 50 Bolts with a +1 bonus, you need to pay 2000 gp for the magic to be on them, and if I remember...

All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
So you also have to pay the 350gp for the Masterwork arrows. So that effectively making magical ammunition WAY more expensive then it's worth, just buy a +1 Crossbow...
pres_man
01-05-06, 05:53 PM Yes the price is screwed up, it is easier to say that all masterwork ammunition costs 7 gp per individual piece and not think about it too much.
Edymnion
01-05-06, 06:00 PM Well, the prices are screwed up now mainly because 3.5 nerfed archers.
Before, bonuses from the bow and bonuses from the arrows stacked, meaning a +1 bow firing a +1 arrow got you a +2 to hit and damage. That made the expensive ammo worth it.

Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows.

3.5 killed the magic arrow.
Tyler Do'Urden
01-05-06, 06:15 PM According to the section on gear, masterwork ammo is +6 gp per unit.Yeah. "Unit" in this case is "one arrow, bolt, or bullet." Not 20.

Does it make sense now?
pres_man
01-05-06, 07:44 PM Yeah. "Unit" in this case is "one arrow, bolt, or bullet." Not 20.

Does it make sense now?
Nope, because 1 arrow does not cost 1 gp, so how can 50 masterwork ones cost 350 gp? They can't, unless 1 arrow costs 1 gp. Easier to just say that all masterwork ammunition costs 7 gp per "unit".
mvincent
01-05-06, 07:53 PM Well, the prices are screwed up now mainly because 3.5 nerfed archers.
Before, bonuses from the bow and bonuses from the arrows stacked, meaning a +1 bow firing a +1 arrow got you a +2 to hit and damage. That made the expensive ammo worth it.

Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows.

3.5 killed the magic arrow.I believe the price discrepancy they are talking about has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

Besides, you can still combine magic arrows with magic bows if one of them have abilities other than straight enhancements. Then all you lose from 3.0 is a +1. However, in either edition, magic arrows are generally too expensive to be worth it. In 3.0, the real value was casting "greater magic weapon" on your arrows.
Inigo Carmine
01-05-06, 08:06 PM Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows.

3.5 killed the magic arrow.
Eh. Made them less powerful, certainly. They're still better than meleers.

Magic arrows are still excellent for enemy specific arrows: Banes, Holy, Axiomatic, etc.
Cuaglar
01-05-06, 08:08 PM I think the SRD is using a mix of both the DM guide and the PHB. In the Player's Handbook, it says "the masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or changes the cost of a single unit of ammunition (such as an arrow) to 7 gp .) For example, a masterwork bastard sword costs 335 gp, while a set of 10 masterwork arrows costs 70 gp" So there's your 7 gp an arrow thing. But I agree that that's ridiculously expensive.
Dragonteuthis
01-05-06, 08:24 PM Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows.

Just so you know, mundane ammunition fired/launched from a magical projectile weapon will bypass #/magic damage reduction, as per page 291 in the Dungeon Master's Guide. So, you will not have to invest in magical arrows, ever, if you so choose.

I also agree that Archers + Greater Magic Weapon made for an unfair combination, however, you should also note that there are no longer strength bonus maximums for Composite Bows, so a 3.5 archer can definitely outdamage his supposedly overpowered 3.0 predecessor.
Blaque
01-06-06, 01:39 AM Ahhh, okay, now I get it. I was cross-refreencing using d20srd.org since I find when making characters, all the hyper-linking made things a bit more sensible. The mix-up in wording clears that up.

This leads to the next quesiton. When I want ot buy less then 50 units of a particuler sort of ammo, is it safe to assume that I can say, take only 5 arrows of a certain sort, and that would cost 200 gp worth of enhancment for +1, 800 for a +1 power on top of that?

I ask this because how I'm thinking on making things is to make it so that the weapon itself has a nice big bonus, while the arrows are there to deal with the aformentioned diverse DR, material costs, and whatnot.

Finally, I assume the costs for adamantine or alchemical silver, or whatnot is for 50 units of ammo also, right?

Stuff.
pres_man
01-06-06, 10:01 AM Really that is up to the DM. If the DM allows you to get different amounts for pro-rated costs, then that is fine. And yes, I believe the special material costs are based on the 50 number of ammunition.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blaque 01-05-06, 04:46 PM	Well, with me being in probably too many games, I decided to sign onto a D&D game coming up and taking the role of the trap-taker-outer sort. I decided to try and give ranged attacks some try, mainly crossbows, and found something weirding me out some. Namely, I looked up the cost of enhanced and masterwork ammuntion, and the math on the charts they have in the SRD atleast don't seem to add up. According to the section on gear, masterwork ammo is +6 gp per unit. I assume that means that 20 MW arrows, 10 crossbow bolts or sling bullets, 5 repeating crossbow bullets, or something, which usually cost 1 gp each, totaling 7 gp for so many mw pieces of ammo. Now, take the crossbow bolts then. According to this, the 50 crossbow bolts you can put an enhancement on would csot 35 gp ([5x10 bullets)x7 each). However, the price for 50 mw bullets according to the SRD and the DMG is 350! That's 7 gp per bolt. Well, that'd make sense, but the math there doesnt'w ork either. If by "each unit" they meant each bolt, then that would be 6 gp and 1 sp, or 6.1 gp each. Fifty of of that still is only costs 305 gp, which is sitll 45 short of the DMG prices. Additionally, arrows, which cost half as much by these prices, still cost 350, when they should even by the higher number cost 155 gp for a set of 50. Was 350 for 50 pieces of ammo just an arbitrary number they choose, or is there something I'm missing mathwise? Stuff.
Morotis 01-05-06, 05:28 PM	No, you have it all wrong... The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). That means that 20 masterwork arrows costs 141 gp (1+7X20) If you look at the Table 7-9: Weapons, on page 222 of the DMG, you'll see this This price is for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets. That means if you want 50 Bolts with a +1 bonus, you need to pay 2000 gp for the magic to be on them, and if I remember... All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls. So you also have to pay the 350gp for the Masterwork arrows. So that effectively making magical ammunition WAY more expensive then it's worth, just buy a +1 Crossbow...
pres_man 01-05-06, 05:53 PM	Yes the price is screwed up, it is easier to say that all masterwork ammunition costs 7 gp per individual piece and not think about it too much.
Edymnion 01-05-06, 06:00 PM	Well, the prices are screwed up now mainly because 3.5 nerfed archers. Before, bonuses from the bow and bonuses from the arrows stacked, meaning a +1 bow firing a +1 arrow got you a +2 to hit and damage. That made the expensive ammo worth it. Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows. 3.5 killed the magic arrow.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-05-06, 06:15 PM	According to the section on gear, masterwork ammo is +6 gp per unit.Yeah. "Unit" in this case is "one arrow, bolt, or bullet." Not 20. Does it make sense now?
pres_man 01-05-06, 07:44 PM	Yeah. "Unit" in this case is "one arrow, bolt, or bullet." Not 20. Does it make sense now? Nope, because 1 arrow does not cost 1 gp, so how can 50 masterwork ones cost 350 gp? They can't, unless 1 arrow costs 1 gp. Easier to just say that all masterwork ammunition costs 7 gp per "unit".
mvincent 01-05-06, 07:53 PM	Well, the prices are screwed up now mainly because 3.5 nerfed archers. Before, bonuses from the bow and bonuses from the arrows stacked, meaning a +1 bow firing a +1 arrow got you a +2 to hit and damage. That made the expensive ammo worth it. Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows. 3.5 killed the magic arrow.I believe the price discrepancy they are talking about has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Besides, you can still combine magic arrows with magic bows if one of them have abilities other than straight enhancements. Then all you lose from 3.0 is a +1. However, in either edition, magic arrows are generally too expensive to be worth it. In 3.0, the real value was casting "greater magic weapon" on your arrows.
Inigo Carmine 01-05-06, 08:06 PM	Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows. 3.5 killed the magic arrow. Eh. Made them less powerful, certainly. They're still better than meleers. Magic arrows are still excellent for enemy specific arrows: Banes, Holy, Axiomatic, etc.
Cuaglar 01-05-06, 08:08 PM	I think the SRD is using a mix of both the DM guide and the PHB. In the Player's Handbook, it says "the masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or changes the cost of a single unit of ammunition (such as an arrow) to 7 gp .) For example, a masterwork bastard sword costs 335 gp, while a set of 10 masterwork arrows costs 70 gp" So there's your 7 gp an arrow thing. But I agree that that's ridiculously expensive.
Dragonteuthis 01-05-06, 08:24 PM	Now days, the only reason to have magic arrows is for bypassing DR, and even that only takes +1 arrows. Just so you know, mundane ammunition fired/launched from a magical projectile weapon will bypass #/magic damage reduction, as per page 291 in the Dungeon Master's Guide. So, you will not have to invest in magical arrows, ever, if you so choose. I also agree that Archers + Greater Magic Weapon made for an unfair combination, however, you should also note that there are no longer strength bonus maximums for Composite Bows, so a 3.5 archer can definitely outdamage his supposedly overpowered 3.0 predecessor.
Blaque 01-06-06, 01:39 AM	Ahhh, okay, now I get it. I was cross-refreencing using d20srd.org since I find when making characters, all the hyper-linking made things a bit more sensible. The mix-up in wording clears that up. This leads to the next quesiton. When I want ot buy less then 50 units of a particuler sort of ammo, is it safe to assume that I can say, take only 5 arrows of a certain sort, and that would cost 200 gp worth of enhancment for +1, 800 for a +1 power on top of that? I ask this because how I'm thinking on making things is to make it so that the weapon itself has a nice big bonus, while the arrows are there to deal with the aformentioned diverse DR, material costs, and whatnot. Finally, I assume the costs for adamantine or alchemical silver, or whatnot is for 50 units of ammo also, right? Stuff.
pres_man 01-06-06, 10:01 AM	Really that is up to the DM. If the DM allows you to get different amounts for pro-rated costs, then that is fine. And yes, I believe the special material costs are based on the 50 number of ammunition.