Post/Author/DateTime	Post
a4igeek 05-18-07, 12:47 AM	I am looking for a progression to create an amulet of unbelievable increase to armor class. That is.. every bonus imaginable that can be placed on an amulet to increase AC. I can see the followign bonuses added dexterity armor sheild deflection natural So how would i craft this assuming i start off with an amulet of dexteriy +1? and how much is this going to cost me?
Koretsu 05-18-07, 02:35 AM	Well, there's a couple things to look at. First, a magic item is strongly urged to pertain to the body part the item takes up. That said, I URGE you not to EVER use this item, as it is potentially horrifically game breaking. That said, you're looking at roughly this cost: +6 Dex (36,000 GP) +8 Armor (64,000 GP) +5 Shield (62,500 GP) +5 Deflection (50,000 GP) +5 Natural (50,000 GP) +5 Dodge (62,500 GP) +5 Insight (62,500 GP) Total AC boost: +37 The Deflection, Natural Armor, Dexterity, and Armor bonuses are all based on the prices of exiting magic items in the DMG. The rest are calculated using the rules for magic item creation in the DMG. Total cost will be 387,500 GP. However, as this item exceeds the threshold of 200,000 GP, it is generally considered an epic item, and thus (roughly) has it's cost multiplied by 10. Thus, it's market price would be 3,875,000 GP. To craft it, you would need the Craft Epic Wonderous Item feat, spending 1,937,500 GP in materials, 1938 days crafting the item (about 5 years, 6 months, if your plane has a earth-based callendar of 365 days), and 79,020 Exp to burn. Have fun, and remember to follow the Wealth-by-character level guidelines on page 135 of your DMG!
Krusk 05-18-07, 09:07 AM	if your going to make the item epic, why not base it off items in the epic book? deflection +10 -epic ring of protection natural armor +10- epic amulet of nat armor armor +15- bracers of epic armor dex +12-bracers of epic dex and then your +5 shield +5 dodge +5 insight for a total of +57 Now this is going to cost a ridicilus ammount and im not even gonna add it up.
a4igeek 05-18-07, 10:44 AM	well.. I can see the final product.. but I am saying that I want to start off with an amulet of dexterity +1 and slowly add more abilies/enhance the current ones till I get this outlandish item.
Witch 05-18-07, 10:48 AM	Total cost will be 387,500 GP. However, as this item exceeds the threshold of 200,000 GP, it is generally considered an epic item, and thus (roughly) has it's cost multiplied by 10. Thus, it's market price would be 3,875,000 GP. I'm really, really annoyed by the misinformation that just refuses to pass. I've said it every time someone brought this up, and people still rant on with their faulty beliefs. Let me make this very, very clear. An item does not receive a x10 price multiplier just because its base price is above 200,000 gold piece. Is that clear? Let's try it again. An item does not receive a x10 price multiplier just because its base price is above 200,000 gold piece. Other problems: Your item adds a dodge bonus. Dodge bonuses aren't supposed to be added to items. The rules say so. Furthermore, the item is not only not gamebreaking, it is absolutely essential to be able to complete against creatures of appropriate CR at epic levels. Also, you need to include a x1,5 price modifier on the additional powers.
Witch 05-18-07, 10:52 AM	if your going to make the item epic, why not base it off items in the epic book? That would incur epic pricing.
Krusk 05-18-07, 02:36 PM	how would the line in the epic level handbook be treated then? if an item costs 200000$ or more it is an epic item. I was under the impression that means exactly what it says. if it costs more than X, than it is Y. As for adding enhancements like you are talking about a4igeek, i dont know of a way to add on existing properties to an already magical item.
strenoth 05-18-07, 03:05 PM	how would the line in the epic level handbook be treated then? if an item costs 200000$ or more it is an epic item. I was under the impression that means exactly what it says. if it costs more than X, than it is Y. As for adding enhancements like you are talking about a4igeek, i dont know of a way to add on existing properties to an already magical item. Yes, it does. But being an epic item does NOT automatically trigger the x10 multiplier. to quote: Market Price Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier. I REPEAT: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, No bonus granted by that item exceeds the normal, non-epic limit. but you do need an Epic crafting feat to make it. So it's an epic item w/o the cost multiplier. Bring even one of those bonuses across the line however, and the price for the whole thing goes x10
aelryinth 05-18-07, 04:40 PM	IN all honesty, you wouldn't approach it this way. An Epic magic item is any magic item with a price above 200k. Epic PRICING kicks in when a magic item exceeds certain limits, usually the +5/+10 combo for arms/armor, or +5 on bonuses, or +6 on stats. An Uber Ac item would probably look like this, actually. Bracers of AC +10 (100k) -Armor/Wrist slot item, with +5 deflection (50k) +5 Nat Armor (50k) +Secondary bonuses +5 Sacred (75k) +5 Insight (75k) +5 Profane (75k) +5 Luck (75k) +5 Competence (75k) ------------------------- Bracers of +45 to AC, +35 of it Touch AC, all of it vs, Incorps, no max Dex. Price...575k. Pretty cheap for what it does, actually. Dropping all the 5 'secondary' bonuses to +4 goes from 375 to 240, or total of 460k, for 'merely' +40 to AC, and with +3, the total price would drop down to 335k for +35 to AC. I left Deflection and Nat Armor at 50k for the 'normal upgrade' effect of Magic Items COmpendium, and added +50% as secondary kickers to all the other bonuses, which are largely non-standard (and priced them as Deflection). It's been noted in several places that as soon as you hit level 21, if you don't make a Ring of +5 (Resistance+Insight+Sacred+Profane+Luck+ Competence) to your saves, you are NUTS. It's far cheaper then making a +6 ring, and if you can't easily hit DC 50+ saves in Epic, you are hosed. ===Aelryinth
Witch 05-18-07, 05:43 PM	Aelryinth: Profane and Sacred bonuses should not stack; infact, they should be considered the same bonus (an aligned bonus).
a4igeek 05-20-07, 04:11 PM	well i ask one question and got an answer to a quastion i didn't ask. so what is the epic +# threshold? and what would the path to make it?
Gnarl 05-20-07, 04:56 PM	well i ask one question and got an answer to a quastion i didn't ask. so what is the epic +# threshold? and what would the path to make it? It depends on the bonus type. Deflection: +5 Natural: +5 Armor: +10 For the other types (luck, insight...) I was asking myself the same question. I've been reading the rules for half an hour searching for the threshold in vain.
Witch 05-20-07, 05:04 PM	For all others, there's two schools of thought: The maximum that a spell can grant you (i.e. Divine Favor gives +3 luck max, and is the only non-epic spell that grants a luck bonus that I'm aware of). Or, personally, the one I hold to, and is far simpler: +5.
aelryinth 05-20-07, 05:06 PM	Aelryinth: Profane and Sacred bonuses should not stack; infact, they should be considered the same bonus (an aligned bonus). I agree with you Thematically. however, by the Rules, they are indeed completely seperate bonuses. IMO, Insight and Luck bonuses should not stack, either. Insight bonuses are described as 'foresight'...glimpses into the future where you pick the best option. As the bigger bonuses accrue, you see more and more options, and sooner and sooner ahead of time. Luck is all about shifting the odds in your favor. It's out of your control. Sacred bonuses are a blessing to you from the powers above...protecting/warding/strengthening you. Profane blessings are, to me, more 'unluck' to an opponent...taking down his resistance, sapping his skill, working against the enemy for lashing at you. Effectively, they give a boost to you by reducing the power of the enemy. Someone with insight and luck bonuses to AC would have serious overlap. Insight and Luck bonuses equal = no matter what choice you make, the odds are already in your favor because of LUck...everything is a 'best option'. Insight > Luck, you'd see that all your choices are good, but there's some that are better. Luck > Insight, y ou'd see that you could probably act completely stupid, and be better off then trying to make a decision...choice is meaningless, you are so lucky. I equate Insight with Law, and Luck with Chaos. Sacred/Profane are good/evil, of course. But where Luck and Insight would simply overlap, Sacred/Profane I'd have cancel out. +3 Sacred and +2 Profane bonuses would cancel out to end up with a +1 Sacred bonus...and you'd feel really, really uncomfortable as the rival blessings and influences war with one another. The other difference is that Sacred/Profane bonuses can apply to ability scores (divine rewards, or being possessed.) Luck and insight bonuses don't do that, so they must be 'less special'. ===Aelryinth
aelryinth 05-20-07, 05:08 PM	well i ask one question and got an answer to a quastion i didn't ask. so what is the epic +# threshold? and what would the path to make it? I'm not sure of your question here. Be more precise. There are a lot of Epic thresholds...which one are you concerned with? Alternately, go read the Epic rules in the SRD:) The section on Epic Magic items should answer most of your questions. ====Aelryinth
a4igeek 05-23-07, 03:22 PM	Darn I thought I had posted my reply and I come back to find it was never posted? What is the epic threshold for +AC bonus? And what is the cheapest path to create such an item? i.e. tricks.. order of adding properties.. etc..
crashbangboom 05-23-07, 06:20 PM	My group ran into an issue with this. A PC built a robe with nearly every boon to spellcasting it ended up costing around 6,000,000+ GP. To counter this our group incurs the normal price for the first enchantment, then 2x for the second and every other, also it costs 2x(cumulative ) for any enchantment used in a slot that is irregular for the boost(eg; headband w/+2 Dex instead of the usual gloves).
Witch 05-23-07, 06:46 PM	There is already a similar rule. Said rule does the exact same thing, except x1,5 instead of x2.
penchant 05-23-07, 11:20 PM	Multiple similar items rule, is 1.5x all secondary abilites. As far as the epic threshold, I believe that I read that when you have multiple abilites in an item, only the epic components are multiplied x10 and not the whole item. The difficulties come up when you 'grow' items from lower levels. Say your most expensive bonus is Armor +8 and the rest are lower. So the +8 is standard cost but the secondary are 1.5. What happens then when you up one of the secondary bonuses from +4 (non epic) to +6 (epic)? It is now x10 its cost, but is it also 1.5 since it WAS the secondary ability, or is it now the primary abilit and not subject to the 1.5 modifier? Do you get credit for the previous 1.5 cost you have been paying on it? My answer to the question is simply recalculate all the abilities as if you were building it as is and simpy pay the difference.
a4igeek 05-24-07, 02:07 PM	So.. epic threshold for AC +??
groveborn 05-24-07, 02:52 PM	I agree with you Thematically. however, by the Rules, they are indeed completely seperate bonuses. IMO, Insight and Luck bonuses should not stack, either. Insight bonuses are described as 'foresight'...glimpses into the future where you pick the best option. As the bigger bonuses accrue, you see more and more options, and sooner and sooner ahead of time. Luck is all about shifting the odds in your favor. It's out of your control. Sacred bonuses are a blessing to you from the powers above...protecting/warding/strengthening you. Profane blessings are, to me, more 'unluck' to an opponent...taking down his resistance, sapping his skill, working against the enemy for lashing at you. Effectively, they give a boost to you by reducing the power of the enemy. Someone with insight and luck bonuses to AC would have serious overlap. Insight and Luck bonuses equal = no matter what choice you make, the odds are already in your favor because of LUck...everything is a 'best option'. Insight > Luck, you'd see that all your choices are good, but there's some that are better. Luck > Insight, y ou'd see that you could probably act completely stupid, and be better off then trying to make a decision...choice is meaningless, you are so lucky. I equate Insight with Law, and Luck with Chaos. Sacred/Profane are good/evil, of course. But where Luck and Insight would simply overlap, Sacred/Profane I'd have cancel out. +3 Sacred and +2 Profane bonuses would cancel out to end up with a +1 Sacred bonus...and you'd feel really, really uncomfortable as the rival blessings and influences war with one another. The other difference is that Sacred/Profane bonuses can apply to ability scores (divine rewards, or being possessed.) Luck and insight bonuses don't do that, so they must be 'less special'. ===Aelryinth I have to agree with absolutely everything you say as far as why they should not stack, but I have to disagree simply because the rules say they do. Even if it doesn't make sense, the rules say every different type of bonus stacks. Everything beyond that is mere opinion, and while you're free to impliment it in any game in which you run, it's still against the rules as published. Just like free parking DOES NOT give you free money in monopoly. As for the question of when the bonus' become epic, for regular enhancements to AC, +6, except on wondrous items, then it's +9. For all other AC enhancements, such as shield, profane, luck, natural, deflection and so forth, it's +6. This also goes for weapons. You may enhance your wondrous device with armor enhancements as well, up to a total enhancement of +10, including the Armor bonus to AC. So far as I can figure, there is no reason why a ring would have differing rules from the wondrous as far as the normal ac vs. epic ac is concerned. The only real question I have is why would you put all these on to a single item, and pay extra for the one slot, rather than place them on several separate items and pay less? The simple answer may be that you want to wear other stuff too, but if you consider that it's cheaper to just make most other items slotless anyway, then you can imagine why I ask. Here are the following permitted enhancements to AC, with cost for all together: Armor X^2*1000 Max +8 (for wondrous) Shield X^2 *1000 Max +5 Natural X^2*2000 Max +5 Deflection X^2*2000 Max +5 Profane X^2*2500 Max +5 Sacred X^2*2500 Max +5 Luck X^2*2500 Max +5 Insight X^2*2500 Max +5 Dexterity X^2*1000 Max + 6 (but you get only half in AC) Circumstance X^2*2500 Max +5 To calculate the cost, add the total cost of EACH together, multiply the whole product by 1.5 to get the market value, cost to create is .5 of that. If you have further questions the item creation table on page 285 in the Dungeon Master's Guide goes over the costs in detail. Read that entire section and most of this stuff will make sense. There's a behind the curtains on page 282 that will help you for additional pricing modifiers, but keep in mind the DM has ultimate pricing ability. This is definitely one of those items that would require an adjustment. If you would like to start with +1 to dex, consider that it will cost X^2*1000, so in this case, 1000 gp, but as Necklaces are intended for protection, not physical improvement or quickness, you'd have to increase it by 50% (1.5) so it's 1500 gp. Now, if you wanted, for instance, to add an additional dex bonus to that necklace to bring it to +2, you would take the cost of making a +2 or (X^2*1000)*1.5, and subtract the cost of the +1 item, which as we went over is 1500. So the cost there would be...4500. Now, rinse and repeat, I would suggest keeping track of the bonuses in a spreadsheet. Also, this would cost less as a ring. With a hand of glory you can then wear the ring around your neck. As a necklace it would cost 493000, as a ring 475000. Finally, this would not stack with any armor, shield, robe, ring, or anything else that provided any of the bonuses you include.