Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Staple 03-08-07, 01:55 AM	Amulet of Might Fists, p. 246 of the DMG. The permutation on the attack bonus is (Bonus) x (Bonus) x 6000gp. My question is, can other abilities (ex. Flaming Burst) be enchanted to an Amulet of Mighty Fists using the same formula? Also, does an Amulet of Mighty Fists have any effect on Grapple checks?
bondious 03-08-07, 02:25 AM	Amulet of Might Fists, p. 246 of the DMG. The permutation on the attack bonus is (Bonus) x (Bonus) x 6000gp. My question is, can other abilities (ex. Flaming Burst) be enchanted to an Amulet of Mighty Fists using the same formula? Also, does an Amulet of Mighty Fists have any effect on Grapple checks? I don't think I've ever seen anything published saying so, but I don't see why you couldn't substitute another ability for an enhancement bonus. You're paying for it, just like you would for a weapon (albiet x3 the price), and the idea of a monk having +2 Flaming or +1 Holy unarmed strikes sounds pretty cool, to me. As for the grapples, I'd say they only have an effect for the "to hit" and "damage" parts, and not to the actual grapple check itself.
Tsuul 03-08-07, 03:17 AM	Grapple checks, no. The touch attack to start, yes. As for the formula, it looks fine. A lot of ppl don't think the amulet can be enchanted with weapon enhancements, but it should be fine. Take a look at the necklace in savage species. It only affects one natural weapon/unarmed strike. But it is the same formula as weapons (I think). Necklace of fangs???
draconic_swine 03-08-07, 10:51 AM	I'd also allow an amulet of mighty fists to be enhanced with other properties. My first reaction was to limit the total enhancement bonus + abilities to +5 (since that's where the amulet stops in the DMG), but I'd allow it to keep going, as long as the price pattern for the amulet is kept.
Harliquinn 03-08-07, 11:00 AM	Amulet of Might Fists, p. 246 of the DMG. The permutation on the attack bonus is (Bonus) x (Bonus) x 6000gp. My question is, can other abilities (ex. Flaming Burst) be enchanted to an Amulet of Mighty Fists using the same formula? Also, does an Amulet of Mighty Fists have any effect on Grapple checks? Just FYI, it was mentioned in one of the rules of the game, that the Amulet of Mighty Fists was priced as it was due to the following: Bonus x Bonus x 2000gp (Price of a standard magic weapon) Cost x2 (Because it would affect 2 weapons on average) Cost x1.5 (Because it was a non-standard slot for combat bonuses) Harliquinn
tarkin 03-08-07, 11:17 AM	Strict Game: No, you can't do that. Loose/Power: Sure, let people use weapon enchantments that make sense (don't do something silly like make your fists Brilliant). Anything Goes Game: Even Brilliant Fists are OK.
Nezkrul 03-09-07, 10:57 AM	Take a look at the necklace in savage species. It only affects one natural weapon/unarmed strike. But it is the same formula as weapons (I think). Necklace of fangs??? 3.0 splat material from a very broken book, only allowable by DM permissiom, and the number of natural attacks to be enhanced doesn't mention "unarmed strike" but it does mention things like "claws", or "bite". *I would only allow the Necklace of Natural Attacks to affect "unarmed strike" as long as the creator has at least a number of Monk class levels equal to the enhancement total of the necklace* The amulet is core. RAW- no you can't have weapon enhancements on an amulet. Fun Houserule- sure as long as the special ability isn't rediculous (like tarkin said).
paladin2019 03-09-07, 02:53 PM	Grapple checks, no. The touch attack to start, yes. Ummm, a grapple check is an opposed attack roll, just with a special rather than the standard size modifier. So yes, the amulet would affect those rolls.
draconic_swine 03-09-07, 03:08 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple): Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier So no, an amulet of mighty fists won't improve your grapple check, any more than using a +4 dagger during the grapple would. A grapple check is very similar to an opposed attack roll, but isn't one.
CrimsonDeath 03-09-07, 06:39 PM	Just FYI, it was mentioned in one of the rules of the game, that the Amulet of Mighty Fists was priced as it was due to the following: Bonus x Bonus x 2000gp (Price of a standard magic weapon) Cost x2 (Because it would affect 2 weapons on average) Cost x1.5 (Because it was a non-standard slot for combat bonuses) Harliquinn Yeah, I noticed that, which is why I considered asking to use Bracers of Mighty Fists (an item slot that is related to combat bonuses-- plus it makes thematic sense for bracers to affect your fists, plus it doesn't interfere with a Periapt of Wisdom or Amulet of Natural Armor). But then the campaign fell apart before I could afford either.
Gadren 03-09-07, 06:47 PM	Strict Game: No, you can't do that. Loose/Power: Sure, let people use weapon enchantments that make sense (don't do something silly like make your fists Brilliant). Anything Goes Game: Even Brilliant Fists are OK. Am I the only one who gets annoyed at how loose games and power games gets lumped together? A flexible DM doesn't mean automatic powergame.
paladin2019 03-09-07, 06:54 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple):Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier So no, an amulet of mighty fists won't improve your grapple check, any more than using a +4 dagger during the grapple would. A grapple check is very similar to an opposed attack roll, but isn't one. 1) This is the SRD. What does the PHB say? I have found too many minor discrepancies in the SRD to consider it a primary source. 2) After the word like, this passage refers to an attack bonus, not a grapple or grapple check bonus. 3) You can't grapple with a dagger, so of course an enchanted one wouldn't apply (but it's bonus would apply to dagger attacks you made during the grapple). You can grapple with your unarmed attack and unarmed attacks are what an amulet of mighty fists modifies.
Merestil Haye 03-09-07, 07:08 PM	1) This is the SRD. What does the PHB say? I have found too many minor discrepancies in the SRD to consider it a primary source.Discrepancies between a printed document and the online SRD (at least the third-party maintained ones) have two main sources. Either the content is in the PHB and not the SRD because it's not OGL, or it's in the SRD but not the PHB because the SRD (at least the third-party maintained ones - Wizards don't bother) incorporates relevant errata into the online pages. In short, the SRD is likely to be more accurate in what it can cover. In this case, that is what the PHB says. See page 156. 2) After the word like, this passage refers to an attack bonus, not a grapple or grapple check bonus.No, it says a grapple check "is like" an attack roll. That means it has some similarity to one, but is not one. In any case, after saying a grapple check is like an attack roll, it never refers to "opposed attack rolls" in the grapple rules. If something is an opposed attack roll the rules actually use the phrase "opposed attack roll". See Disarm and Sunder special manoevres for examples of . A grapple check is not an attack roll, even an opposed one, because it uses a different set of modifiers than a regular attack roll does. 3) You can't grapple with a dagger, so of course an enchanted one wouldn't apply (but it's bonus would apply to dagger attacks you made during the grapple). You can grapple with your unarmed attack and unarmed attacks are what an amulet of mighty fists modifies.Want to check again? You can use a light weapon, such as a dagger, in a grapple, doing damage by winning a grapple check.
paladin2019 03-09-07, 07:22 PM	In any case, after saying a grapple check is like an attack roll, it never refers to "opposed attack rolls" in the grapple rules. No it doesn't. Your example says Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: It does not say "Your bonus on a grapple check is:" or "Your grapple check bonus is:", it says "attack bonus." RAIT, and maybe RAW but I don't have my books, is that weapon enhancements are attack bonuss and this is identified as an attack bonus. Want to check again? You can use a light weapon, such as a dagger, in a grapple, doing damage by winning a grapple check. IIRC, the rule is that you can make an attack roll with a light weapon while grappling, not that you can use a light weapon to deal damage on a successful grapple check.
Tsuul 03-09-07, 07:32 PM	Ummm, a grapple check is an opposed attack rollIt isn't an attack roll. As for the Savage species being a broken book, sure, it has broken material (a lot of broken material), but the amulet isn't one of them. It affects 1 natural weapon, which monks can use. You can add weapon abilities, like returning, flaming. And it has a nice formula. 3.0 is 3.5 usable, but yea, check with your DM. If 3.0 were so unusable we'd be playing 4.0 now instead of 3.5. If ppl are really bent out of shape using it, then use the formula given earlier in the thread for how the Amulet of mighty fists was computed, remove 1 weapon from it, and have it only affect 1 set of body parts. Like hands, or feet, or head. Again this is a DM decision.
Merestil Haye 03-09-07, 07:48 PM	No it doesn't. Your example saysYour attack bonus on a grapple check is:It does not say "Your bonus on a grapple check is:" or "Your grapple check bonus is:", it says "attack bonus."It calls what you are doing a "grapple check" and not an "opposed attack roll." Did you compare other special actions, such as Disarm?Step 2 Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll.Please study this and note how it calls the central action an "attack roll" - a term it studiously avoids in describing grapples. If the designers went to the bother of giving two things different names, it is because they are different. Grapple checks are not attack rolls. RAIT, and maybe RAW but I don't have my books, is that weapon enhancements are attack bonuss and this is identified as an attack bonus.Please explain what you mean by RAIT. Weapon enhancements do not have attack bonuses. They have "enhancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls". IIRC, the rule is that you can make an attack roll with a light weapon while grappling, not that you can use a light weapon to deal damage on a successful grapple check.Sorry, I misremembered that. You attack your opponent if you have a light weapon. However if you are unarmed you also have this option.Damage Your Opponent While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.Now, a character wearing an Amulet won't get any benefit to the grapple rolls, but will benefit from the bonus to the damage rolls he makes if he wins the grapple check.
paladin2019 03-09-07, 08:00 PM	No books and the SRD is not a primary source so I don't quote it. I'm going off memory, so if you would correct it, I would be appreciative. RAIT: Rules As I Innterpret Them. Or remember them in this case. So, does the RAW state a weapon enhancement, and an amuliet of mighty fists is an attack bonus or a bonus to attack rolls? My point is that grapple checks have attack bonuses, not grapple or grapple check bonuses. If the RAW says attack bonus, it applies. If it's a bonus to attack rolls, it doesn't because a grapple check isn't an attack roll.
Merestil Haye 03-09-07, 08:32 PM	No books and the SRD is not a primary source so I don't quote it. I'm going off memory, so if you would correct it, I would be appreciative. RAIT: Rules As I Innterpret Them. Or remember them in this case. So, does the RAW state a weapon enhancement, and an amuliet of mighty fists is an attack bonus or a bonus to attack rolls? My point is that grapple checks have attack bonuses, not grapple or grapple check bonuses. If the RAW says attack bonus, it applies. If it's a bonus to attack rolls, it doesn't because a grapple check isn't an attack roll.Get over this "SRD is not a primary source" please. The SRD is the text of the rules, with some exceptions that are not included in the licence. If I quote something it is almost always a copy and paste from the SRD. I'm not a trained typist and can easily make transcription errors. Weapons.Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. Amulet.Amulet of Mighty Fists This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.Hope that helps.
paladin2019 03-09-07, 08:41 PM	So SRD is a primary source? And yes, that does help. I am mistaken.
Tsuul 03-09-07, 09:00 PM	So SRD is a primary source?No.The SRD is missing flavor text and examples. The SRD gets quoted often on the boards because it can easily be copy/pasted, AND because it is legal to quote huge chunks of it. If I were to type out the PHB description of Unarmed Strikes from the equipment section, a wizo (under current wizo policy) would be in his rights to delete/ban that post and me because it includes text not found in the SRD. Non-rules fluff text, but licensed non-rules fluff all the same. If there is a difference between quoted SRD and book material, that is relevant to the conversation, please bring it up. But 99% of the time, there is no difference.
Nezkrul 03-09-07, 09:55 PM	It isn't an attack roll. As for the Savage species being a broken book, sure, it has broken material (a lot of broken material), but the amulet isn't one of them. It affects 1 natural weapon, which monks can use. You can add weapon abilities, like returning, flaming. And it has a nice formula. Necklace of Natural attacks if allowed to affect "Unarmed Strike" as a single weapon for its creation formula ends up costing like less than 50% that of the CORE Amulet of Mighty fists with the same enhancement total, and imo that = broken; hence the suggestion I italicized.
Tsuul 03-10-07, 04:29 AM	Necklace of Natural ... ends up costing like less than 50% ... of ... Amulet of Mighty fists ..., and imo that = broken.Ah, but the core amulet affects claws, unarmed strikes, bites, slams, tail attacks, tentacles, and any other natural weapon, all at the same time, granting each the same bonus. A dragon makes out like a bandit (2 claws, 1 bite, 2 wings, 1 tail slap, 1 tail sweep, 1 crush). Isn't that a lil broken? The necklace, you pay for each. If you want, change the formula to match what the Amulet is, but for only one weapon instead of the two it is priced at. (Although I always thought it was priced at 3; I'll do the math eventually).
Merestil Haye 03-10-07, 04:49 AM	So SRD is a primary source?The SRD contains that part of the system WotC have included in the Open Game Licence. That's most of the rules needed to play the game, but does not include character and world generation stuff and some things that are considered "product identity" and they don't want being more widely used. Thus you won't find the rules to generate abilities, you won't find the community generation info, you won't find the Behoolder or Mindflayer, and many spells have had their names changed. For example, there's no "Evard's Black Tentacles" but there is a spell called Black Tentacles. Discrepancies of this nature are not mistakes or errors, but the limitations of the beast. The other glaring set of differences arise from the issue of errata. When WotC publishes an errata file, it cannot change the printed page, but the SRD site maintainers can (and do) incorporate the changes into the content of their site. Thus, for example, there are significant differences between the PHB's Wildshape and the SRDs, but that is because WotC issued errata in February '06, and the SRD community updated their sites. All except the one that WotC supply from their site - they've not incorporated anything since the first DMG errata (as far as I know). The upshot of this is that the SRD reads as the core rulebooks would if they were published for the first time today, taking previous experience into account. If there are any differences between an SRD site and the core books that are not accounted for by the two reasons above, then maybe it's a mistake and the sitemaster would appreciate being told so he or she can correct it. So I would say it can be considered primary rules text, as far as it is allowed to go - which is not the whole way.
Nezkrul 03-10-07, 11:32 AM	Ah, but the core amulet affects claws, unarmed strikes, bites, slams, tail attacks, tentacles, and any other natural weapon, all at the same time, granting each the same bonus. A dragon makes out like a bandit (2 claws, 1 bite, 2 wings, 1 tail slap, 1 tail sweep, 1 crush). Isn't that a lil broken? The necklace, you pay for each. If you want, change the formula to match what the Amulet is, but for only one weapon instead of the two it is priced at. (Although I always thought it was priced at 3; I'll do the math eventually). the amulet is also core and the necklace isn't.
Tsuul 03-10-07, 12:36 PM	the amulet is also core and the necklace isn't.Let me gate in a rebuttal.
Merestil Haye 03-10-07, 03:10 PM	The Amulet of Mighty Fists is properly priced for an item with its power that does not occupy a related body slot and thus has had the regular price increased by 50%.. The power more properly belongs in Bracers (combat enhancement), Gauntlets (destructive power) or Belts (physical improvement). This would make Gauntlets of Mighty Fists +1 priced at 4,000gp. These Gauntlets give +1 to attack and damage rolls with natural weapons. Gauntlets of Ogre Power cost the same amount, and give +1 to attack and damage rolls with all melee weapons (including manufactured weapons), increases carrying capacity, gives a +1 bonus to Str-based skill checks and resilience to Str damage. So the trade-off here is losing the enhancement to ranged natural attacks for the benefits of gaining Strength. Personally I think that's more than a fair trade.
paladin2019 03-10-07, 03:12 PM	So the trade-off here is losing the enhancement to ranged natural attacks for the benefits of gaining Strength. What creatures have natural ranged attacks? :eek:
Tsuul 03-10-07, 04:11 PM	Manticores
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 03-10-07, 04:22 PM	The amulet can also enchant all the natural weapons of a 12 headed hydra. Bracers are too cheap. ;)
Merestil Haye 03-10-07, 04:27 PM	What creatures have natural ranged attacks? :eek:A good question. :) That's one of the major reasons why I really don't accept that the Amulet is worth 50% more than Gauntlets of Ogre Power : the only benefit the Amulet gives that the Gauntlets do not is of so little use to the majority of monsters. Apart from Manticores, there's also the Gibbering Mouther and the Roper; both of those have ranged natural attacks too. Any more, anyone?
Nephlite 03-10-07, 04:27 PM	The amulet can also enchant all the natural weapons of a 12 headed hydra. Bracers are too cheap. ;) hydras are too dumb to get an amulet. Plus which head does it go over?
Merestil Haye 03-10-07, 04:29 PM	The amulet can also enchant all the natural weapons of a 12 headed hydra. Bracers are too cheap. ;)Yes, and the Strength enhancer gives the Hydra the same benefits and more. Why should the amulet be the higher price?
Tsuul 03-10-07, 05:21 PM	Tack on wounding, flaming, bursting and the price lines up better. But ppl will argue you can't by RAW add weapon enhancing abilities to the amulet. Those same ppl forget what a +1 weapon enhancement bonus to hit and damage is though; a weapon enhancement ability.
Scion of Coldshard 03-10-07, 06:23 PM	The amulet is horribly overcosted going by the core when used for a monk. Effectively you pay several times for a single benefit. You give up a very important slot, you pay way too much, and you do not even get much back. A regular character gets to hold a weapon (sortof like not using a slot at all), gets options about what is put on it, and can still use a different amulet. Oh, and pays 1/3 the price. Monks need a better option. Permanent greater magic weapon can be dispelled too easily, amulet is horribly overpriced for what it does for the monk, and the only other choice is simply going without.