An Authority on Overcoming CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Authority on Overcoming CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer
07-03-06, 04:35 PM I am attempting to write an Authority on the most efficient method for overcoming challenges in D&D. An authority is a document that everyone knows is true and accurate. Let's begin.

#1) Success is based on the player's control of the DC.
The player's build allows for more control over a situation and allow for faster ways to neutralize the encounter. The faster the method used overcomes the encounter, the more effective it is. The less resources it uses, the more effective it is.

In order of effectiveness:

1) Skills used to overcome static DC. Example: Diplomacy.
2) Spells that do not offer SR/saves/attack rolls/DR. Example: Invisibility.
3) Combat rolls that deal damage. Example: A melee or ranged attack.
4) Skills with opposing rolls. Examples: Bluff or Hide.
5) Spells with Save or SR, but not both. Examples: Scorching Ray or Bigby's Crushing Hand.
6) Spells with save DC, but still have effect if saved. Examples: Harm or Fireball.
7) Spells with DC with failed save neutralises opponent. Examples: Plane Shift or Dominate Person.
8) Spells with DC, but successful save does not neutralize opponent. Example: Bestow Curse.

#2) Group play with similar mechanics will be most effective.

If a group all use the same method of neutralization against an encounter, the more likely it will be successful.

Examples: If a party deals damage. A party that tries to lower saves with Intimidate checks/spells like Enervation so one member can cast a 'save or die' spell.

#3)The closer a group can neutralize an opponent in one round, the more likely they will succeed without using the least amount of resources.

Two rounds can mean two rounds of spellcasting, loss of HP, etc.

A party with a high Inititive, use of surprise, and all neutralize an opponent in a similar fashion can neutralize an opponent(s) without taking damage or use additional resources.

Example: If a Wizard uses a Quickened Dimension Door then Haste to get party next to opponent so the rest can attack as a Full Round Attack with extra attacks.

#4) The less amount of resources used to overcome an encounter; the more successful it was in overcoming it.

While an all cleric/wizard party can be effective, they are only as useful as their spells hold out. This can be countered with long duration spells and item creation feats. Most Rogues and Fighters use little resources other than their HP (or arrows). Controlling your resources and minimizing their use allows for more encounters per day, and/or means you will not lack the resources to overcome an opponent quickly at the end of a day/adventure.

Any other constructive additions and/or opinions on how to improve this authority is appriciated. If you disagree on a point, give examples such as:

I disagree that the order should be 5) Spells with Save or SR, but not both. Examples: Scorching Ray or Bigby's Crushing Hand. 6) Spells with save DC, but still have effect if saved. Examples: Harm or Fireball.

They should be reversed because they do not take into account that most save spells like #6 effect an area of effect.

I would counter this example with:

While area of effect spells can deal more damage against multiple opponents, you do not always face multiple foes. In those circumstances, higher damage spells that do not offer a save will deal more damage. I put 5 before 6 because every CR is situational. Overall, 5 will be more true than 6 based upon multiple types of encounters.

I hope for helpful and positive feedback.
tarkin
07-03-06, 04:45 PM There are some issues with that 'authority'.

Consider the following cases.

Reflex save for 1/2
Fort save for 1/2
Reflex save for partial.

Of those, the best is Fort save for 1/2
Reflex save for 1/2 has a major problem - Evasion, which is a very common ability. Not only do two regular classs have it, but there is a magic item that grants it.

Reflex save for partial is usually worse than Refelx save for 1/2, but not if facing a rogue or monk.

Also a Save focused character can still push their saves up to the point where it is harder to save then it is to miss a ranged attack.
Nom
07-03-06, 09:02 PM I am attempting to write an Authority on overcoming CR rating in D and D. An authority is a document that everyone knows is true and accurate. Let's begin.Uh, what the heck are you talking about? :confused: "Overcoming CR rating"? Aside from the poor grammar ("overcoming challenge rating rating"), the phrase still doesn't make sense.

"Overcoming DR" is a well defined rules term. Unlike overcoming DR, you never match a single numerical stat directly against a CR. The only thing I can think of that "overcoming CR" might mean is to "overcome a challenge (which has components with CR)". And that is reasonably well understood: you overcome a challenge if you face the challenge and it fails to stop you achieving your objective (as defined by the DM & players).
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer
07-08-06, 07:31 PM There are some issues with that 'authority'.

Consider the following cases.

Reflex save for 1/2
Fort save for 1/2
Reflex save for partial.

Of those, the best is Fort save for 1/2
Reflex save for 1/2 has a major problem - Evasion, which is a very common ability. Not only do two regular classs have it, but there is a magic item that grants it.

Reflex save for partial is usually worse than Refelx save for 1/2, but not if facing a rogue or monk.

Also a Save focused character can still push their saves up to the point where it is harder to save then it is to miss a ranged attack.

I did take into consideration this fact. As you point out, 2 classes and a 20k magic item produce the special ability of Evasion. Almost all monsters and the majority of classes do not possess this ability. As such, in the high majority of cases this will be true. There will always be exceptions, but the point behind an Authority is to deal in generalities that are true in the grand majority of the time.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer
07-08-06, 07:37 PM Uh, what the heck are you talking about? :confused: "Overcoming CR rating"? Aside from the poor grammar ("overcoming challenge rating rating"), the phrase still doesn't make sense.

"Overcoming DR" is a well defined rules term. Unlike overcoming DR, you never match a single numerical stat directly against a CR. The only thing I can think of that "overcoming CR" might mean is to "overcome a challenge (which has components with CR)". And that is reasonably well understood: you overcome a challenge if you face the challenge and it fails to stop you achieving your objective (as defined by the DM & players).

Edited for clarification. Thank you for pointing out I was unclear.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 07-03-06, 04:35 PM	I am attempting to write an Authority on the most efficient method for overcoming challenges in D&D. An authority is a document that everyone knows is true and accurate. Let's begin. #1) Success is based on the player's control of the DC. The player's build allows for more control over a situation and allow for faster ways to neutralize the encounter. The faster the method used overcomes the encounter, the more effective it is. The less resources it uses, the more effective it is. In order of effectiveness: 1) Skills used to overcome static DC. Example: Diplomacy. 2) Spells that do not offer SR/saves/attack rolls/DR. Example: Invisibility. 3) Combat rolls that deal damage. Example: A melee or ranged attack. 4) Skills with opposing rolls. Examples: Bluff or Hide. 5) Spells with Save or SR, but not both. Examples: Scorching Ray or Bigby's Crushing Hand. 6) Spells with save DC, but still have effect if saved. Examples: Harm or Fireball. 7) Spells with DC with failed save neutralises opponent. Examples: Plane Shift or Dominate Person. 8) Spells with DC, but successful save does not neutralize opponent. Example: Bestow Curse. #2) Group play with similar mechanics will be most effective. If a group all use the same method of neutralization against an encounter, the more likely it will be successful. Examples: If a party deals damage. A party that tries to lower saves with Intimidate checks/spells like Enervation so one member can cast a 'save or die' spell. #3)The closer a group can neutralize an opponent in one round, the more likely they will succeed without using the least amount of resources. Two rounds can mean two rounds of spellcasting, loss of HP, etc. A party with a high Inititive, use of surprise, and all neutralize an opponent in a similar fashion can neutralize an opponent(s) without taking damage or use additional resources. Example: If a Wizard uses a Quickened Dimension Door then Haste to get party next to opponent so the rest can attack as a Full Round Attack with extra attacks. #4) The less amount of resources used to overcome an encounter; the more successful it was in overcoming it. While an all cleric/wizard party can be effective, they are only as useful as their spells hold out. This can be countered with long duration spells and item creation feats. Most Rogues and Fighters use little resources other than their HP (or arrows). Controlling your resources and minimizing their use allows for more encounters per day, and/or means you will not lack the resources to overcome an opponent quickly at the end of a day/adventure. Any other constructive additions and/or opinions on how to improve this authority is appriciated. If you disagree on a point, give examples such as: I disagree that the order should be 5) Spells with Save or SR, but not both. Examples: Scorching Ray or Bigby's Crushing Hand. 6) Spells with save DC, but still have effect if saved. Examples: Harm or Fireball. They should be reversed because they do not take into account that most save spells like #6 effect an area of effect. I would counter this example with: While area of effect spells can deal more damage against multiple opponents, you do not always face multiple foes. In those circumstances, higher damage spells that do not offer a save will deal more damage. I put 5 before 6 because every CR is situational. Overall, 5 will be more true than 6 based upon multiple types of encounters. I hope for helpful and positive feedback.
tarkin 07-03-06, 04:45 PM	There are some issues with that 'authority'. Consider the following cases. Reflex save for 1/2 Fort save for 1/2 Reflex save for partial. Of those, the best is Fort save for 1/2 Reflex save for 1/2 has a major problem - Evasion, which is a very common ability. Not only do two regular classs have it, but there is a magic item that grants it. Reflex save for partial is usually worse than Refelx save for 1/2, but not if facing a rogue or monk. Also a Save focused character can still push their saves up to the point where it is harder to save then it is to miss a ranged attack.
Nom 07-03-06, 09:02 PM	I am attempting to write an Authority on overcoming CR rating in D and D. An authority is a document that everyone knows is true and accurate. Let's begin.Uh, what the heck are you talking about? :confused: "Overcoming CR rating"? Aside from the poor grammar ("overcoming challenge rating rating"), the phrase still doesn't make sense. "Overcoming DR" is a well defined rules term. Unlike overcoming DR, you never match a single numerical stat directly against a CR. The only thing I can think of that "overcoming CR" might mean is to "overcome a challenge (which has components with CR)". And that is reasonably well understood: you overcome a challenge if you face the challenge and it fails to stop you achieving your objective (as defined by the DM & players).
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 07-08-06, 07:31 PM	There are some issues with that 'authority'. Consider the following cases. Reflex save for 1/2 Fort save for 1/2 Reflex save for partial. Of those, the best is Fort save for 1/2 Reflex save for 1/2 has a major problem - Evasion, which is a very common ability. Not only do two regular classs have it, but there is a magic item that grants it. Reflex save for partial is usually worse than Refelx save for 1/2, but not if facing a rogue or monk. Also a Save focused character can still push their saves up to the point where it is harder to save then it is to miss a ranged attack. I did take into consideration this fact. As you point out, 2 classes and a 20k magic item produce the special ability of Evasion. Almost all monsters and the majority of classes do not possess this ability. As such, in the high majority of cases this will be true. There will always be exceptions, but the point behind an Authority is to deal in generalities that are true in the grand majority of the time.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 07-08-06, 07:37 PM	Uh, what the heck are you talking about? :confused: "Overcoming CR rating"? Aside from the poor grammar ("overcoming challenge rating rating"), the phrase still doesn't make sense. "Overcoming DR" is a well defined rules term. Unlike overcoming DR, you never match a single numerical stat directly against a CR. The only thing I can think of that "overcoming CR" might mean is to "overcome a challenge (which has components with CR)". And that is reasonably well understood: you overcome a challenge if you face the challenge and it fails to stop you achieving your objective (as defined by the DM & players). Edited for clarification. Thank you for pointing out I was unclear.