An 'Enlarge on Rage' ring?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

An 'Enlarge on Rage' ring?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Finlos
05-12-06, 12:01 AM Here's the scenario (with a bit of background):

One of the players in my Dragonlance campaign group (I'm not the DM) is playing a half-ogre barbarian. His characters' primary attack is a grapple + Earth's Embrace (He basically envisions him as The Hulk -- however, this is *NOT* the point of this post but is included merely for an understanding of this guy's char concept).

We're presently in Palanthas with an unspecified amount of time on our hands at level 13 (or level 12 +1 LA -- for him) and we've recently come into a fair amount of coin. The amount is ~100K which pretty much the sum and total of our loot for this level and the next (at least). He wants to buy / have made an item that would cast Enlarge Person on him whenever he's raged and only when he's raged.

Here are my questions: A) How would you develop it, B) How much should it cost? C) what body spot should it take, and D) would you allow it?

Thanks in advance for your answers
Finlos
Thorak
05-12-06, 12:16 AM Here's the scenario (with a bit of background):

One of the players in my Dragonlance campaign group (I'm not the DM) is playing a half-ogre barbarian. His characters' primary attack is a grapple + Earth's Embrace (He basically envisions him as The Hulk -- however, this is *NOT* the point of this post but is included merely for an understanding of this guy's char concept).

We're presently in Palanthas with an unspecified amount of time on our hands at level 13 (or level 12 +1 LA -- for him) and we've recently come into a fair amount of coin. The amount is ~100K which pretty much the sum and total of our loot for this level and the next (at least). He wants to buy / have made an item that would cast Enlarge Person on him whenever he's raged and only when he's raged.

Here are my questions: A) How would you develop it, B) How much should it cost? C) what body spot should it take, and D) would you allow it?

Thanks in advance for your answers
Finlos

I flat out wouldn't allow it.

For the simple reason that magic items should never, ever, be able to trigger on some factor besides the user spending an action to deliberately activate the item. A ring of Enlarge Person, sure, with a few uses a day, but it's a standard action to "hulk up" each time you want to use it.

Otherwise, you get cases of things like, say, protective items that activate when you make an attack/get hit, wands that can fire themselves when you cast another spell, etc, etc. It gets far too powerful to enable that kind of trigger.

Enlarge himself is one thing. Wanting to get to do so as a free action is quite another.

That said, you may want to consider letting him play a Goliath. It's a +1 LA, but they get Powerful Build, which lets him be almost-Large in many ways, and a Goliath can take racial substitution levels with Barbarian, and their 1st racial substitution level gives them Mountain Rage instead of normal rage, which gives an additional +2 Strength, and makes them Large while raging.

The full details are all in Races of Stone, it's probably the best option for what your player wants.
robertliguori
05-12-06, 12:40 AM Enlarge is one of those tricky effects to adjucate. If you'd allow him unlimited access to Enlarge person, then giving him a rounds-long Expansion effect equivalent won't change things. I will point out that as a half-ogre, he's not a valid target for Enlarge Person (although he is for Expansion).

A suggestion: Adjucate this as a unique item (to avoid the contingent magic items Thorak mentioned), and tie it to his Rage. Normal Rage gets Powerful Build, Mighty Rage gets a size increase, etc. But I'm a fan of items that stay useful at higher levels.

He may also want to try to find psionic-equivalent items that can cast Grip of Iron, or something similar.
tarkin
05-12-06, 08:58 AM Price wise, this seems to me to be worth around 8,000 gp. It would have to be based on Expansion.
Tony Vargas
05-12-06, 12:50 PM Well, using the formulae in the DMG (and, remember, they're only guidelines, and to be used only when you can't find an analogous DMG item, etc, etc...)...

You have a 1st level spell, and you want to be able to use it as a free action (since raging is a free action). That's Quicken, so you're talking a 5th level spell.

90kgp. (CL 9 is the minimum to cast Quickened Enlarge Person)

Now, it only works when you Rage, so that's a restriction on who can use it (Class or Alignment, effectively) which is a 30% discount.

So 63kgp.

Since there are some barbarians who can Rage more than 4 times a day, there's no discount for uses/day based on the limitted uses of Rage.

Of course, the formula for an always-on Ring of Enlarge Person only weighs in at 4kgp (for CL 1), so you can tell the DMG formulae don't really work that well.

Sorry.
mvincent
05-12-06, 01:23 PM magic items should never, ever, be able to trigger on some factor besides the user spending an action to deliberately activate the item.Except for a metamagic rod of spell quickening (which don't require a standard action), and other quickened spells, or contigencied spells, or the numerous use activated arms, armor, wondrous items, rods, rings, etc. that don't require an action, or intelligent magic items...

... then there are Glyphs of Warding, Symbol spells, or spells which can be placed in a trap and set to go off in response to a specified event (which includes pretty much any spell according to the trap rules)...
Kresalak
05-12-06, 01:42 PM Lords of Madness has a ring that applies a permanent Recude Person effect for 20,000. An on-rage effect would activate less often, and might be about 10-15k, by my reckoning.
Thorak
05-12-06, 02:31 PM Except for a metamagic rod of spell quickening (which don't require a standard action), and other quickened spells, or contigencied spells, or the numerous use activated arms, armor, wondrous items, rods, rings, etc. that don't require an action, or intelligent magic items...
Use-activated isn't relevant, since the use is an action, and the OP wants it to trigger on something that isn't a use of the item.

Metamagic rods are constant effects on the caster with limited uses a day.

Quickened spells still require an action to use them, an Barbarians typically don't cast them.

So use-activated isn't what he's talking about, and neither is continuous effect. He wants an entirely different kind of trigger, one that doesn't exist for a reason.
... then there are Glyphs of Warding, Symbol spells, or spells which can be placed in a trap and set to go off in response to a specified event (which includes pretty much any spell according to the trap rules)...
Which are specific spells, not permanent magic items. Contingency is the same; it's a one-shot magic item. If you want to price up an item that casts Enlarge Person and Contingency with the clause being "when I rage" every time his Enlarge ends, go ahead, but I'm willing to bet the price will be in the hundreds of thousands of gold.

Like I said, the best option if he wants a hulk character is a Goliath with racial substitution levels. It gives him exactly what he wants.
mvincent
05-12-06, 05:21 PM Use-activated isn't relevant, since the use is an action <snip> Metamagic rods are constant effects on the caster with limited uses a day.I don't believe I've heard that one before. What about Major Cloaks of Displacement, Gloves of Storing, Cloaks of Etherealness, winged boots or Boots of speed? These do not seem to take an action to activate, and do not seem to be continuous effects (ymmv on some... but all?).

Others magic items have been made that are set to automatically activate under certain conditions, including:
Boots of Dancing
Bracers of Defenselessness
Gauntlets of Fumbling
etc.

In fact, a regular item could have the following Intermittent Functioning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm) 'curse':
"Dependent
The item only functions in certain situations. To determine what the situation is, either select a situation or roll on the following table."
ClementWillowbreaker
05-12-06, 09:13 PM In which case it would a continuous effect-price, with a curse-reduction in market value (but not cost to create). Making it use-activation is a cheap way to get around the barbarian magic-activation limitation.

Or just get a regular version (Quickened if you don't mind paying for something that replicates what is essentially a 6th level spell, although that should not be your pricing method directly) and activate it before you rage.
DemonMonkeyBoy
05-13-06, 04:20 AM Bracers of Brobdingnagian Physique

These bracers are made of thick leather, with dozens of different sized spikes protruding outward. Three time per day a command word can be spoken. The wearer gains the following benefits for five minutes.
After the command word is said the item causes an instant growth of the wearer, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the wearer’s size category to the next larger one. The wearer gains a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.
If the wearer size increases to Large they have a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the wearer’s speed.
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the wearer attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the affect does not crush a wearer by increasing its size.
All equipment worn or carried by a wearer is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves the wearer’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
Moderate transmutation, Cl 5; enlarge person, bull strength, market cost 50,000

I don't remmeber exactly how we got this price but here is a basic look at what we looked at when pricing it....
Str bonus (BSQx1000)
10ft Reach
Increased weapon damage
-2 to Dex
Other odd thing attached to being large (-1AC, +4 grapple..etc)
Decide for yourself what these this are worth and add it up add a little extra for the use-activation.

My quick guess for your item would put it around 20,000 - 25,000
I would call your item Belt of the Raging Mountain, but thats just me.
Throse
05-19-06, 10:59 AM Drmji no understand why people no like him big....

Drmji just like to crush little things.

That bad?

Drmji
Rochlar
05-19-06, 03:29 PM I flat out wouldn't allow it.

For the simple reason that magic items should never, ever, be able to trigger on some factor besides the user spending an action to deliberately activate the item.

you know, you might want to read up on magical items in general before you try passing yourself off as an expert on all things wonderous. to wit: in the masters of the wild, there is a weapon called berserker blade that is normally +1, but goes to +2 when the weilder rages. it also comes in +2/+3 versions, and costs exactly halfway between the other two items.

that being said, you really would need expansion or, even better, righteous might. as for how to price it, to the best of my knowledge, the only real way is to use the quickened spell for pricing and then apply the 30% disount.

then again, you may just want to require that he use a more powerful spell (like R. might o the augmented expand power) and just rule that he cant use it at all if he isnt raging.
chitzk0i
05-19-06, 04:27 PM Bracers of Brobdingnagian Physique

[...]

I would reference enlarge person in the description, like this: "When a command word is spoken, these bracers cause their wearer to grow to the next size category, as the enlarge person spell except the bonus to strength is +6 instead of +2."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Finlos 05-12-06, 12:01 AM	Here's the scenario (with a bit of background): One of the players in my Dragonlance campaign group (I'm not the DM) is playing a half-ogre barbarian. His characters' primary attack is a grapple + Earth's Embrace (He basically envisions him as The Hulk -- however, this is NOT the point of this post but is included merely for an understanding of this guy's char concept). We're presently in Palanthas with an unspecified amount of time on our hands at level 13 (or level 12 +1 LA -- for him) and we've recently come into a fair amount of coin. The amount is ~100K which pretty much the sum and total of our loot for this level and the next (at least). He wants to buy / have made an item that would cast Enlarge Person on him whenever he's raged and only when he's raged. Here are my questions: A) How would you develop it, B) How much should it cost? C) what body spot should it take, and D) would you allow it? Thanks in advance for your answers Finlos
Thorak 05-12-06, 12:16 AM	Here's the scenario (with a bit of background): One of the players in my Dragonlance campaign group (I'm not the DM) is playing a half-ogre barbarian. His characters' primary attack is a grapple + Earth's Embrace (He basically envisions him as The Hulk -- however, this is NOT the point of this post but is included merely for an understanding of this guy's char concept). We're presently in Palanthas with an unspecified amount of time on our hands at level 13 (or level 12 +1 LA -- for him) and we've recently come into a fair amount of coin. The amount is ~100K which pretty much the sum and total of our loot for this level and the next (at least). He wants to buy / have made an item that would cast Enlarge Person on him whenever he's raged and only when he's raged. Here are my questions: A) How would you develop it, B) How much should it cost? C) what body spot should it take, and D) would you allow it? Thanks in advance for your answers Finlos I flat out wouldn't allow it. For the simple reason that magic items should never, ever, be able to trigger on some factor besides the user spending an action to deliberately activate the item. A ring of Enlarge Person, sure, with a few uses a day, but it's a standard action to "hulk up" each time you want to use it. Otherwise, you get cases of things like, say, protective items that activate when you make an attack/get hit, wands that can fire themselves when you cast another spell, etc, etc. It gets far too powerful to enable that kind of trigger. Enlarge himself is one thing. Wanting to get to do so as a free action is quite another. That said, you may want to consider letting him play a Goliath. It's a +1 LA, but they get Powerful Build, which lets him be almost-Large in many ways, and a Goliath can take racial substitution levels with Barbarian, and their 1st racial substitution level gives them Mountain Rage instead of normal rage, which gives an additional +2 Strength, and makes them Large while raging. The full details are all in Races of Stone, it's probably the best option for what your player wants.
robertliguori 05-12-06, 12:40 AM	Enlarge is one of those tricky effects to adjucate. If you'd allow him unlimited access to Enlarge person, then giving him a rounds-long Expansion effect equivalent won't change things. I will point out that as a half-ogre, he's not a valid target for Enlarge Person (although he is for Expansion). A suggestion: Adjucate this as a unique item (to avoid the contingent magic items Thorak mentioned), and tie it to his Rage. Normal Rage gets Powerful Build, Mighty Rage gets a size increase, etc. But I'm a fan of items that stay useful at higher levels. He may also want to try to find psionic-equivalent items that can cast Grip of Iron, or something similar.
tarkin 05-12-06, 08:58 AM	Price wise, this seems to me to be worth around 8,000 gp. It would have to be based on Expansion.
Tony Vargas 05-12-06, 12:50 PM	Well, using the formulae in the DMG (and, remember, they're only guidelines, and to be used only when you can't find an analogous DMG item, etc, etc...)... You have a 1st level spell, and you want to be able to use it as a free action (since raging is a free action). That's Quicken, so you're talking a 5th level spell. 90kgp. (CL 9 is the minimum to cast Quickened Enlarge Person) Now, it only works when you Rage, so that's a restriction on who can use it (Class or Alignment, effectively) which is a 30% discount. So 63kgp. Since there are some barbarians who can Rage more than 4 times a day, there's no discount for uses/day based on the limitted uses of Rage. Of course, the formula for an always-on Ring of Enlarge Person only weighs in at 4kgp (for CL 1), so you can tell the DMG formulae don't really work that well. Sorry.
mvincent 05-12-06, 01:23 PM	magic items should never, ever, be able to trigger on some factor besides the user spending an action to deliberately activate the item.Except for a metamagic rod of spell quickening (which don't require a standard action), and other quickened spells, or contigencied spells, or the numerous use activated arms, armor, wondrous items, rods, rings, etc. that don't require an action, or intelligent magic items... ... then there are Glyphs of Warding, Symbol spells, or spells which can be placed in a trap and set to go off in response to a specified event (which includes pretty much any spell according to the trap rules)...
Kresalak 05-12-06, 01:42 PM	Lords of Madness has a ring that applies a permanent Recude Person effect for 20,000. An on-rage effect would activate less often, and might be about 10-15k, by my reckoning.
Thorak 05-12-06, 02:31 PM	Except for a metamagic rod of spell quickening (which don't require a standard action), and other quickened spells, or contigencied spells, or the numerous use activated arms, armor, wondrous items, rods, rings, etc. that don't require an action, or intelligent magic items... Use-activated isn't relevant, since the use is an action, and the OP wants it to trigger on something that isn't a use of the item. Metamagic rods are constant effects on the caster with limited uses a day. Quickened spells still require an action to use them, an Barbarians typically don't cast them. So use-activated isn't what he's talking about, and neither is continuous effect. He wants an entirely different kind of trigger, one that doesn't exist for a reason. ... then there are Glyphs of Warding, Symbol spells, or spells which can be placed in a trap and set to go off in response to a specified event (which includes pretty much any spell according to the trap rules)... Which are specific spells, not permanent magic items. Contingency is the same; it's a one-shot magic item. If you want to price up an item that casts Enlarge Person and Contingency with the clause being "when I rage" every time his Enlarge ends, go ahead, but I'm willing to bet the price will be in the hundreds of thousands of gold. Like I said, the best option if he wants a hulk character is a Goliath with racial substitution levels. It gives him exactly what he wants.
mvincent 05-12-06, 05:21 PM	Use-activated isn't relevant, since the use is an action <snip> Metamagic rods are constant effects on the caster with limited uses a day.I don't believe I've heard that one before. What about Major Cloaks of Displacement, Gloves of Storing, Cloaks of Etherealness, winged boots or Boots of speed? These do not seem to take an action to activate, and do not seem to be continuous effects (ymmv on some... but all?). Others magic items have been made that are set to automatically activate under certain conditions, including: Boots of Dancing Bracers of Defenselessness Gauntlets of Fumbling etc. In fact, a regular item could have the following Intermittent Functioning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm) 'curse': "Dependent The item only functions in certain situations. To determine what the situation is, either select a situation or roll on the following table."
ClementWillowbreaker 05-12-06, 09:13 PM	In which case it would a continuous effect-price, with a curse-reduction in market value (but not cost to create). Making it use-activation is a cheap way to get around the barbarian magic-activation limitation. Or just get a regular version (Quickened if you don't mind paying for something that replicates what is essentially a 6th level spell, although that should not be your pricing method directly) and activate it before you rage.
DemonMonkeyBoy 05-13-06, 04:20 AM	Bracers of Brobdingnagian Physique These bracers are made of thick leather, with dozens of different sized spikes protruding outward. Three time per day a command word can be spoken. The wearer gains the following benefits for five minutes. After the command word is said the item causes an instant growth of the wearer, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the wearer’s size category to the next larger one. The wearer gains a +6 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size. If the wearer size increases to Large they have a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the wearer’s speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the wearer attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the affect does not crush a wearer by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by a wearer is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves the wearer’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell. Moderate transmutation, Cl 5; enlarge person, bull strength, market cost 50,000 I don't remmeber exactly how we got this price but here is a basic look at what we looked at when pricing it.... Str bonus (BSQx1000) 10ft Reach Increased weapon damage -2 to Dex Other odd thing attached to being large (-1AC, +4 grapple..etc) Decide for yourself what these this are worth and add it up add a little extra for the use-activation. My quick guess for your item would put it around 20,000 - 25,000 I would call your item Belt of the Raging Mountain, but thats just me.
Throse 05-19-06, 10:59 AM	Drmji no understand why people no like him big.... Drmji just like to crush little things. That bad? Drmji
Rochlar 05-19-06, 03:29 PM	I flat out wouldn't allow it. For the simple reason that magic items should never, ever, be able to trigger on some factor besides the user spending an action to deliberately activate the item. you know, you might want to read up on magical items in general before you try passing yourself off as an expert on all things wonderous. to wit: in the masters of the wild, there is a weapon called berserker blade that is normally +1, but goes to +2 when the weilder rages. it also comes in +2/+3 versions, and costs exactly halfway between the other two items. that being said, you really would need expansion or, even better, righteous might. as for how to price it, to the best of my knowledge, the only real way is to use the quickened spell for pricing and then apply the 30% disount. then again, you may just want to require that he use a more powerful spell (like R. might o the augmented expand power) and just rule that he cant use it at all if he isnt raging.
chitzk0i 05-19-06, 04:27 PM	Bracers of Brobdingnagian Physique [...] I would reference enlarge person in the description, like this: "When a command word is spoken, these bracers cause their wearer to grow to the next size category, as the enlarge person spell except the bonus to strength is +6 instead of +2."