Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 11-08-05, 06:48 PM	Hi everybody, I'd like to know what you guys think about the following character class in terms of game balance. to get the feel an touch, think of it as a rouge variant and compare the gains and the losses. if you think it's unbalanced, what modifications (as subtle as possible) would you insert to ballance it up (for better or worse) ? ======================================== ================== ======================================== ================== ======================================== ================== Pit fighter Class description: Pit Fighters play a similar role to that of gladiators in the days of the Roman Empire, but they are trained to perform in closed maze-like arenas, filled with countless booby traps and obstacles, and deal with a great diversity of monsters and situations. To survive their many performances they require great agility, impressive combat versatility and the ability to escape whatever dangers laid down on them. Their reward at the end of the day is simply to stay alive. All adventuring pit fighters either escaped with someone’s aid or set loose (master died, or actively did so for some reason) Alignment: any non-lawful Hit points: d8 Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. A pit fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex). Weapon and armor proficiencies: Pit fighters are proficient with all simple weapons and all martial one-handed weapons, excluding missile devices, and with light armor, but not with shields. Base Attack Fort Ref Will AC Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Bonus(3) 1st +0 +2 +2 +0 Fast move, illiteracy +1 2nd +1 +3 +3 +0 Evasion +1 3rd +2 +3 +3 +1 +1 4th +3 +4 +4 +1 Uncanny Dodge +1 5th +3 +4 +4 +1 Endurance +2 6th +4 +5 +5 +2 +2 7th +5 +5 +5 +2 Diehard(1) +2 8th +6/+1 +6 +6 +2 Improved u. dodge +2 9th +6/+1 +6 +6 +3 +3 10th +7/+2 +7 +7 +3 special ability(2) +3 11th +8/+3 +7 +7 +3 bonus feat +3 12th +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 +3 13th +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 special ability(2) +4 14th +10/+5 +9 +9 +4 bonus feat +4 15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +5 +4 16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 special ability(2) +4 17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 bonus feat +5 18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 +5 19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 special ability(2) +5 20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 bonus feat +5 1. One of the greatest arena attractions is to let the audience decide the fate of a staggering combatant. 2. Choose from the rouge’s list, disregarding Skill Mastery. Unlike rouges, pit fighters may NOT gain a feat in place of a special ability. 3. Pit fighters have superb insight of melee combat. Whenever a pit fighter is not carrying heavy load and on his feet, he gains the indicated AC modifier as a dodge bonus. This ability overlaps Dodge feat, so you can’t take it again, but it’s good for prerequisites (Mobility, Spring Attack etc.). A pit fighter cannot start with the following feats: - Heal: “if they fall, they fall”. - Great Fortitude / Iron Will / Lightning Reflex: the audience can’t see it, so it’s uninteresting in the arena. - Survival / Track: you don’t Track in the arena and you have no practice in natural environments. - Any feat related to mounts: slaves don’t enjoy the privilege of using mounts (but their opponents might). - Any feat that deals with missile devices of any sort: pit fighters in the arena chop at each other rather than target one another. - Any feat that enhanced skills: versatility is always more desirable than fine tuning.
simon_tage 11-08-05, 08:23 PM	Check this out. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=527710)
simon_tage 11-08-05, 08:54 PM	To be fair, it does seem to be fairly balanced.
Kendrick 11-08-05, 08:58 PM	I may have missed something there, with the slightly messy formatting, but that class looks fairly terrible to me. 1. 80 skill points over 20 levels is huge. 2. A d8 HD is the equivilant of a whopping 1 feat - Improved Toughness. 3. Endurance and Diehard are questionable feats - worth maybe 1 bonus feat between them, no more. 4. You gutted the skill list. UMD, Open Lock, Disable Device - these skills are a major component of the rogue and removing them cuts both power and versatility. You've removed anything that might make the class worthwhile as a skill monkey or utility class, without making it a worthwhile melee class. The AC bonus and fast movement together might make it worth a 1 level dip, nothing more.
Kendrick 11-08-05, 09:10 PM	Things this class loses compared to the Rogue: 10d6 Sneack Attack +6 Trap Sense 80 skill points 5 excellent class skills ~10 good class skills Trapfinding Access to Skill Mastery Things it gains: ~5 feats 11 HP on average +6 Fort save +5 Dodge to AC
nonsi 11-09-05, 01:09 AM	Things this class loses compared to the Rogue: 10d6 Sneack Attack +6 Trap Sense 80 skill points 5 excellent class skills ~10 good class skills Trapfinding Access to Skill Mastery Things it gains: ~5 feats 11 HP on average +6 Fort save +5 Dodge to AC 1. Trap Sense is covered quite nicely with the good ref saves and the dodge AC improvement. 2. the pit fighter is not intended for substituting the rouge as the utility man of the group or as an assassin, but to somwhere improve overall combat survival chances, by combining increased movement, endurance and diehard at earlier stages and the extra feats at the later stages (notice that I didn't specify them to combat feats). overall, regarding your summary, I think that the following subtle modification would level the pit fighter with all the other classes: 1. adding Diehard along with Endurance at 5th level. 2. moving Improved Uncanny Dodge to 7th level. 3. adding a bonus feat at 8th level regarding the above, how do you (or anyone else) now view the pit fighter ??
Kendrick 11-09-05, 02:51 AM	1. Trap Sense is covered quite nicely with the good ref saves and the dodge AC improvement. 2. the pit fighter is not intended for substituting the rouge as the utility man of the group or as an assassin, but to somwhere improve overall combat survival chances, by combining increased movement, endurance and diehard at earlier stages and the extra feats at the later stages (notice that I didn't specify them to combat feats). overall, regarding your summary, I think that the following subtle modification would level the pit fighter with all the other classes: 1. adding Diehard along with Endurance at 5th level. 2. moving Improved Uncanny Dodge to 7th level. 3. adding a bonus feat at 8th level regarding the above, how do you (or anyone else) now view the pit fighter ?? Mundane Combat Classes need +1 BAB/Level. Cut enough out to give it that and it'll be useable. It has no offensive tricks, no fancy mystical stuff, and it can't even use decent weapons. +3/4 BAB/level is for classes that have some sort of tricks. Cut feats until it's balanced at +1 BAB/level and it'll be a variant. Edited to delete unneccesary sarcasm. Suffice it to say a combat class without good proficiencies, BAB, any extra damage dealing, or any other out of combat utility needs to be more focused.
Kendrick 11-09-05, 03:15 AM	I'd start rebuilding the class by cutting out two rogue special abilities. Opportunist is so circumstancial that it's not a decent benefit for the level investment, and out of the three defensive abilities I'd rather have each character have at least the minimal ability to custumize what 2 out of 3 evasive abilites he gets. That leaves the Dodge Bonus, Endurance/Diehard, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Fast Movement. I'd say that Fast Movement is worth about one feat, as are Endurance and Diehard together. I'd give Uncanny Dodge a feat, but the improved version is so circumstancial I'd make that half of a feat. Evasion's worth a feat and a half, which makes ~7 feats total including two rogue special ability selections. Add in the dodge bonus, and give 'em medium armor proficiency and the ability to use it with the dodge bonus at least, if not evasion (I mean come on - what kind of gladiator can't even wear a breastplate?). That would be my first off the cuff iteration of changes to make it a viable class. That's not necessarily balanced, but I don't think it's too wacky and with the full BAB it would be a flavorful variant, rather than a class best left to NPCs.
nonsi 11-09-05, 04:42 AM	I'd start rebuilding the class by cutting out two rogue special abilities. Opportunist is so circumstancial that it's not a decent benefit for the level investment, and out of the three defensive abilities I'd rather have each character have at least the minimal ability to custumize what 2 out of 3 evasive abilites he gets. That leaves the Dodge Bonus, Endurance/Diehard, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Fast Movement. I'd say that Fast Movement is worth about one feat, as are Endurance and Diehard together. I'd give Uncanny Dodge a feat, but the improved version is so circumstancial I'd make that half of a feat. Evasion's worth a feat and a half, which makes ~7 feats total including two rogue special ability selections. Add in the dodge bonus, and give 'em medium armor proficiency and the ability to use it with the dodge bonus at least, if not evasion (I mean come on - what kind of gladiator can't even wear a breastplate?). That would be my first off the cuff iteration of changes to make it a viable class. That's not necessarily balanced, but I don't think it's too wacky and with the full BAB it would be a flavorful variant, rather than a class best left to NPCs. maybe I'm wrong, but I think people have a tendency to automatically regard level 20, already counting on an impressive mass of magical items. most of the campaign happens below this border. 1. the pit fighter is designed for close quarter combat, not a large and flat arenas. Opportunist works great in crampy places if you have a partner. when it comes to traps and area effects, he beats any +1 BAB/Level class you'll find. remember that there's more to surviving than beating your opponent to a pulp one on one. a high level pit fighter could make a great decoy, sometimes allowing the heavy artillery to finish the job uninterrupted. 2. Endurance allows you to rest in light armor an Diehard could allow the pit fighter to retreat when things get critical (both at no extra cost). 3. I assumed (my mistake) that it was cleare the pit fighter is supposed to have a far wider range of starting weapons than a rouge does. 4. the best medium armor tops a decent chain shirt only by +1, has a lower Max-Dex and reduces your movement. it deffinately cannot beat the indicated dodge bonus (mechanically speaking, I can't imagine how someone can apply affective dodging in medium armor). and when it comes to the endless nasty touch-attack effects, the heavily armored guys get the short end of the stick. 5. Improved Evasion is an automatic 1/2 damade guarantee (quite critical when the DM is a dice result freak). 6. getting 5 extra feats - any - is an advantage no other character possesses. 7. If I could arrange a decent set of rules for getting up from prone without provoking AoO's, this agile character could become more than decent (and with that though in mind, I don't understand why a monk doesn't have it automatically at a certain level, as well as uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, on the expense of one or two supernatural abilities). Note: evidently, the pit fighter relies heavily on high DEX. but every character has one most important ability. with a mithral chain-shirt (far from unobtainable, even breast plate, because of the armor category reduction), weapon finnesse, an emphessis on 2-weapon-fighting (up to Greater), 2-weapon defense and tumble, you deffinately get a decent combatant. If I'm still missing something to your oppinion, I'd be very happy if you could mention it.