Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thelon Fairblade 10-24-06, 10:14 AM	I know there are some rules already for "guns" in D&D. They basically are translated as d8 dmg ranged weapons. Same as carrying a loaded light crossbow... big whoop. Now, maybe I have misremembered or misinterpreted, but... I was thinking of guns being something of an unreliable "superweapon". Something that "high-tech" societies might have the initial rudiments of (not necessarily following Earth's development). Something like one-shot pistols or rifles (okay, muskets) that they would open the fight with, before the melee. Not the main weapon of employ, not mass produced for use by commoners for massed fire, but something that provided a single hard hit in an encounter. Something like: "Longdragon": d20 damage, 20/x3, ignores up to 5 points of target's "armor bonus" or "natural armor bonus"; lose 1 point of pentration in each range category. Range 60'. Reload: 2 min. On an attack roll of "1", roll on misfire chart. Two-handed missile weapon. Rapid Reload cuts time to 1 min. Exotic Weapon. "Handdragon": d12 damage, 20/x3, ignores up to 5 points of target's "armor bonus" or "natural armor bonus" (only in the first range category). Range 30'. Reload: 2 min. On an attack roll of "1", roll on misfire chart. One-handed missile weapon. Rapid Reload cuts time to 1 min. Exotic Weapon. Misfire Chart (d6) 6: Shot is a dud. No penalty other than the wasted shot. 5: Shot jams in barrel. Requires 1 minute and a Dex check (or Gunsmith skill check) DC 10 to unjam; retries allowed. 4: as #5, DC 15, no retry without full gunsmithing tools/workshop. 3: Powder has minor backlash. Suffer 1d6 fire damage (Reflex DC 11 to drop gun and take no damage), and shot is jammed as #4. 2: Minor catastrophe: shot misfires, damaging weapon (1d6 HP damage). Roll an attack on yourself with the weapon. Also, treat as jammed, per #4. [If weapon loses its last HP to this result, move down to #1.] 1: Major catastrophe: weapon explodes. 4d6 damage to you (Ref DC 14 for half), half damage to adajacent squares (Ref DC 14 for 1 damage). Weapon destroyed. I'm picturing, for example, an "early Renaissance" campaign setting, where the PCs might have "handdragons" (based on background, skills, and early adventures), firing them at charging foes then switching to melee weapons for a normal battle. Elven archers would still be the cream of the missile-armed troops, being able to fire (in D&D rules) 20-40 arrows in the time it takes "dragoneers" to fire 2 shots. However, elite dwarven and gnomish troops could have quite an impact on a battle with an initial volley of "longdragon" rounds before a heavy infantry charge. For the most part, though, these guns would not be widely dispersed. Now, the question... how would this shape a game world or impact a campaign?
Mecha_Pope 10-24-06, 10:57 AM	First off, I'd like to ask if you have fire-proof cloths. If I can remember anything about previous gun posts, you got about two days or so before this post erupts into about fifty pages of flaming. That aside, I like you mechanics, with the exception of reload time. Now, the DMG has reload times too short, and yours are abit too long. I'd say about 1-1.5 minutes tops for reload, and the pistol should take less time than the musket. All and all however, I think that this all should work fine from a historical perspective, and if thats what your going for, then kudos to you. It's all about how you want your world to feel, and thats all that realy matters, no matter what the flamers who will undoubtibly flame your post may say. As a bit of a sidenote, reloading times could be reduced even more by using pre-packaged shot. In RL this wasn't invented untill around the civil war, but only because it seem that no one thought of it till then. It is well within the technological limits of any scocioty that at least has paper. It packeged the powder and shot in a paper tube. The tube is opened on one end and the powder poured in. Then the paper itself is used as the wad, and is put in the barrel and tamped down on top of the powder. Then the bullet is loaded and tamped down and the fireing mechinisem is preped (method varying depending on the fire-arm, in your case id assume a flint or matchlock, so the pan would require some powder from a powder horn or other device). Have fun with your guns!
Thelon Fairblade 10-24-06, 11:30 AM	Thanks for the non-flamed response! :-) Yes, I'm packing some nice flame-retardant undies for this thread... I wanted the reload times kept artificially high to enforce the "one shot per encounter" desired effect. Trained "dragoneers" would be expected to take the Rapid Reload feat, thus bringing reload times down to 1 min -- doable in a long fight for PCs, noticeable in a prolonged war situation. The in-game rationale is that the weapons are awkward to reload, requiring a partial dismantle in fact. This is supposed to be a "safety" feature, which has resulted in far fewer explosions and catastrophes. (which also lets me put more crude models out there, for example, that might misfire on a "2" or even "3", and might suffer a -2 on the Misfire table). The paper cartridge concept... I'll have to think about that. The simple and quick concept would definately be at odds with my intended mechanic and in-game rationale, unless I incorporated it -- perhaps either including it as already part of the design to get "as good as this!", or maybe a modifier -- speeds up reload times, but disables some safety features to use (more of a chnce of a bad thing)...
PoorHobo 10-24-06, 12:59 PM	The problem with one shot powerfull weapons is that players will be drawn to carrying 4 - 8 of them and without good reason your going to let them. Rogues with quick draw will keep 8 loaded pistols and pick them up after the fight, reload and be set for the next - melee characters with high str bonus won't use it all because it will be more damaging to close and power attack. Casters will have rather cast awesome spells than use a 1 D20 weapon. After mulling it over I don't see what your trying to accomplish. Flavor wise its great but have you thought about how your players will use it? I see your skill monkey's loving every minute of it leaving the other classes to continue what they do as normal.
equilibrium17 10-24-06, 01:32 PM	I think the problem of players carrying 4-8 early firearms can be easily resolved by modeling some of the historical weaknesses. I have fired and worked with replicas of many of these weapon types, though not the really early stuff (Matchlocks) Some points: - Early Arquebuses and Muskets were VERY big and heavy. So much so that soldiers usually carried a crooked pole for resting the weapon on to fire it. Early handguns, such as those used by Gustavus Adolpus' cavalry were a bit smaller, but it would still be a challenge to carry more than 2 in a way that they were easily accessed. - Early firearms also used the matchlock, and then later the wheellock/flintlock, firing mechanism. The matchlock actually required the musketeer to carry, and keep lit a burning slowmatch. But all of these, including the later wheelocks and flintlocks had an open pan, exterior to the breech, that had to be primed with powder before the weapon could be fired. You can't prime pan ahead of time on a flintlock, and then sling it over your back -- the priming powder will only stay in the pan if you keep the weapon more or less level, and don't jostle it too much. In other words, you have to carry a primed weapon in your hands, or you'll probably lose the priming powder, and have to re-prime the weapons. - Finally, early blackpowder weapons are prone to going off without warning when fully locked and loaded. Blackpowder is touchy stuff. You really wouldn't want to just sling a loaded flintlock over your back and run around. At best, it goes off in your ear, and you lose your hearing. Worse, the blast lights your hair/hat on fire. Worst, the barrel is actually pointing at you or an ally when it goes off. . . So I think you can easily a realisitic rules that "Longdragons" and "Handragons" can't be slung or packed loaded, which pretty much eliminates the incentive of carrying multiples. If players insist on carrying them loaded, just assign a 5% chance/minute that a loaded firearm carried any way but carefully with two hands goes of prematurely, or something like that. . .
Derren S. 10-24-06, 01:44 PM	Well. your guns are not really similiar to the historic ines. Historically guns, especially the early ones, were no superweapons. They had a certain intimidation value but thats about all they were good for. A longbow or crossbow was much more deadly then a early gun and even had the higher penetration power. What made the guns so prevelant was their cheap manufacture process and their ease of use. Give a pesant a longbow and he has to train for months before he poses any kind of threat on the battlefield. But give him a gun and in some days you have a soldier who can be used in a war.
Rulebook 10-24-06, 01:51 PM	the longbow was a superior weapon to the musket up until the american revolution. King George wanted to keep a supply of them at the colonies, but the idea was rejected as they didnt want the indians learning how to make them. that being said, a volley of muskets is a much better attack at shorter ranges than a similar volley from longbows.
Pan0pticon 10-24-06, 01:51 PM	If I recall correctly, even with packetized and premeasured powder, it was rare for a musket gunner to get off more than three shots every minute. With a six second round time, erring on the side of reload time being a smidge longer, we're looking at a reload time of about 4 rounds (24s vs. 18s). Moving to our standard musket of the late mideval era, I agree with the earlier poster's idea of 1 to 1.5 minutes, rather the equivalent of 10-15 rounds of reloading. In terms of combat utility, this is an eternity. Also remember that these weapons are very heavy, so just enforcing weight requirements and lifting weights can counter this.
Rulebook 10-24-06, 01:54 PM	just do what the pirates did: since reloading a flintlock is a time consuming pain in the butt... carry three of them!
Watchman 10-24-06, 03:49 PM	Pistols were typically carried at the very least in pairs. That was actually the standard issue for cavalrymen from around early 1600s onwards, and not a few of them had an extra one somewhere. A more than little understandable practice when you keep in mind that even a flintlock takes around half a minute for a seasoned user to reload (although pre-packed shots like the paper cartridge ones helped), the earlier wheellocks added the trouble with rewinding the spring, and all this had to be accomplished on horseback in combat usually within ten meters of the enemy (since the pistols weren't much good for any further really). Long-arms... well, their users were just out of luck. The things were simply too big for anyone to carry spares, and varying multi-barreled designs (which were tried from Europe to China) proved to not be worth the trouble. And since the practically effective maximum range of smoothbore muskets and arquebuses was around fifty meters even for a skilled shot and reloading took easily at least half a minute (rifled guns were by far more accurate, but also considerably slower to reload...) the musketeers were obviously rather defenceless after firing, although rotating the front ranks back to reload while the other ranks fired helped somewhat. In practice for battlefield a covering force of pikemen was necessary to keep enemy cavalry from simply trampling the musketeers flat, until the bayonet was invented (although fortifications and suitable obstacles could also do the job). "Mounted shot", or dragoons as they're called, were obviously rather less vulnerable as they could better get out of harm's way and doubled as semi-decent light cavalry in melee. Proper cavalry carried a pair of pistols besides their carbine, and were trained for close combat anyway so the reloading time wasn't really a major problem for them. Personally I think the equivalent of half a minute or more in D&D combat turns - five plus Full-Round Actions that rpoduce AoOs - would be restrictive enough. The range increment for the pistol thingy should really be something along the lines of 10-15' tops - even modern handguns are really rather short-ranged weapons, and they're by far superior to the hapless blackpowder smoothbores in every way. I'd also say its "armour piercing" effect should start at 4 points and be subject to the same reduction as the long-arm version has (keeping in mind the proposed shorter RI here); those things had real difficulties penetrating good armour except at very close to point-blank range, and there are recorded cases where even literally point-blank shots failed to get through. The high damage die I would actually be okay with, especially if we assume the "longdragon" represents a very large-bore, heavy musket such as the so-called "Spanish musket" of the Renaissance. The lead balls had a whole lot of mass and due to their size and softness were in many ways similar to modern hollowpoints in terms of what they did to flesh, and could cause quite horrendous wounds; however, they also had trouble punching in deep (as their kinetic energy was very rapidly transferred to surrounding tissue) and hence actually reach something vital - people could actually survive multiple direct hits quite well, if wound infection and the bad or nonexistent medical care of the times did not claim them. They were also ballistically quite random (and ineffective) thanks to their typically rather irregular shape and loose fit to the barrel. In other words, what actually happened to someone hit could vary considerably. Side note on the misfire table: #5, "shot jams in the barrel", if it really means the ball getting stuck in the tube during firing, would actually directly result in #2 or more likely #1 - the expanding gases have to go somewhere, and if the barrel becomes blocked they'll exit through the little priming-hole at the rear. Which is, obviously and naturally, in no way sufficient in diameter to vent the full volume of hot gas the propellant charge produces. Which means at the very least the priming-hole is going to get widened a fair bit, and even more likely the pressure build-up inside the barrel is going to be fast and violent enough that the whole thing bursts. Happened every now and then with cannon too. Ones made from iron are particularly troublesome as they tend to shatter to nasty sharp pieces (exactly like period hand grenades really). Bronze ones are way safer, as they'll just split, but when you keep in mind that the breech of a long-arm is going to be awfully close to the user's face and eyes in most firing positions...
Necropolitan 10-24-06, 03:53 PM	Watchman summed up most of my feelings nicely, though I'd like to express a genuine like for the d20 damage die on the Longarm. I think that accuratly reprisents the ironic inaccuracy of a period musket or as they called them "Pumpkin Throwers"; you could deal just 1 damage, or you could blow a hole in them big enough to drive a panzer through; rolling a 20. All together I'd run these in my game as is if they fit the setting. Nicely done.
Thelon Fairblade 10-25-06, 10:19 AM	Watchman and others, thanks for the analysis. I like the horrid randomness of the d20 damage for exactly the reasons mentioned -- you could end up with a totally ineffective shot that clips the target and spreads out the energy, or a perfect piercing shot that distributes the energy directly to the target's vitals... Everyone seems against the imposed 2 minute reload time. So perhaps "10 Full-round Actions that draw AoO" is sufficient, with Rapid Reload knocking that down to 5. Range on the longdragon will be dropped to 50'. Range on the handdragon will be dropped to 20'. I intend the handdragon's "armor piercing" effect to only work at short range -- the bullet might still be accurate at 40' (-2 to hit), but it isn't blowing through the target's chainmail. Up close... it still isn't totally piercing plate armor anyway. I thought about this last one a lot, actually, which is why I went with an "armor piercing" mechanic rather than "ranged touch attack". I don't want these ignoring a dragon's 20 points of natural armor -- it's not magic, nor magically propelled. Now, as for carrying 2, or 3, or 8... Valid points. I'm thinking, based on the input, I'm going to go with "awkward, heavy" as the mitigating factor. I guess I don't have a problem with the skill monkey carrying 2, maybe 3. I can see the fighter pulling out one to hit the pesky flying mage, too. But I also intend -- campaign enforced -- to keep the things hard to come by. You can't just "whip one up" like a magic item -- it must be crafted, by a master, and each one is unique. (unlike the crude models that may occasionally be found employed against the party) So the party might acquire 2 or 3 total -- if they give all three to the rogue, fine. Priming pans, wheellocks... Hmm... I think I will decline to cash that reality check. I'm not going to focus on the priming mechanism, other than to say "don't get it wet". However, I will reserve the right as GM to impose accidental firing if the weapons are carried armed at all times, esepcially if there are several. I'm thinking 1 armed at all times is going to be fine, but the other (2?) will have to be prepped and carefully stowed before combat is expected, or left unprimed.
Watchman 10-26-06, 04:31 AM	If you want to restrict availability, go for wheellocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheellock). Those require very skilled craftsmen to build and maintain - clockmaker-level competence in mechanics really, and those were indeed the craftsmen who often doubled as the repair service AFAIK - and hence are very expensive, and their complicated mechanism was sensitive and prone to problems. According to some sources as many as one in five failed to discharge properly in field battle conditions, and Swedish records from the Thirty Years' War give the cost of a pair of pistols - the standard equipement of a cavalryman - as comparable to that of a full suit of munitions-grade cuirassieur plate armour. Incidentally, a typical wheellock pistol is around as long as a man's forearm and rather heavy - pistols were normally made hefty enough to double as clubs if necessary. A person is unlikely to be able to fit more than four on his person, and even cavalrymen only normally carried a pair in saddle holsters (plus perhaps a third one tucked into a boot, "just in case"). Flintlocks are both dirt cheap and ultra-reliable in comparision, so you'll want to stay away from those. The same goes for matchlocks actually, but as they require some suitable burning item to ignite (a lenght of slowmatch, cord imprenegated with saltpeter, was preferred but smoldering sticks could also do in a pinch) and carrying a meter of smoldering rope is obviously a pain in the ass have rather considerable inconvenience issues. And you can forget about hiding a pistol-sized specimen about your person to use as a surprise weapon for pretty obvious reasons. "Is your pocket on fire or are you just happy to see me...?" Side note: I'd say the Rapid Reload Feat could take a third off the reloading times, tops. "Old hands" were naturally more used to handling all the required steps and gear smoothly and efficiently, and knew all the shortcuts, but even for them reloading was still painstakingly and abysmally slow.
Rulebook 10-26-06, 07:50 AM	Plug Bayonett!
Fake Healer 10-26-06, 09:04 AM	You could also go with an alchemical varient instead of going "gunpowder". Something like the white powder the wizards developed in the Guardians of the Flame series to combat against gunpowder. It was supposedly a magically stabilized, dried plasma that was activated using water (which made rain a hassle). I think it would be neat and flavorful to use something other than gunpowder for the accelerant. I love the ideas so far and want to use them. How would masterwork work? Would there be any difference to the misfire chart? How about Magic enhancement? Would they still be able to explode? Maybe you could remove some of the bad misfire effects (besides jamming) for a magical version. A player would hate to have a magical weapon explode. Good ideas! Congrats. FH
Horatio Hornblower 10-26-06, 09:53 AM	Misfire Chart (d6) 6: Shot is a dud. No penalty other than the wasted shot. 5: Shot jams in barrel. Requires 1 minute and a Dex check (or Gunsmith skill check) DC 10 to unjam; retries allowed. 4: as #5, DC 15, no retry without full gunsmithing tools/workshop. 3: Powder has minor backlash. Suffer 1d6 fire damage (Reflex DC 11 to drop gun and take no damage), and shot is jammed as #4. 2: Minor catastrophe: shot misfires, damaging weapon (1d6 HP damage). Roll an attack on yourself with the weapon. Also, treat as jammed, per #4. [If weapon loses its last HP to this result, move down to #1.] 1: Major catastrophe: weapon explodes. 4d6 damage to you (Ref DC 14 for half), half damage to adajacent squares (Ref DC 14 for 1 damage). Weapon destroyed. I really like the gun stats, but this misfire chart is too extreme. Remember a 1 on a d20 roll comes up 5% of the time. Crit failures like this makes the weapon unusable or ruined so often that no one would use it. What I would do is say a crit failure is a "flash in the pan" misfire. The main charge failed to go off and the pan has to be reloaded to try again. That should take two or three rounds. Plug Bayonett! The bayonet wasn't invented until the 1600s, something I think is interesting since it is such a great yet simple idea. Since this is heroic fantasy and not history adding the bayonet would work. Now you got a ranged weapon and polearm in one! Might stat it out as a spear and club double weapon. You know the drill, thrust with the pointy end and bash with the blunt end.
DrObviousSo 10-26-06, 10:02 AM	If you want to ensure your players only can usually use this once per encounter, just specify that the flash pan needs to stay upright and stable, or else the powder spills out. It takes 2 rounds to fill it. In general, they will only be able to use this once per combat, unless they do a good bit of planning for the encounter, in which case they deserve to be more effective.
Thelon Fairblade 10-27-06, 11:16 AM	More great feedback! Thanks! According to the wiki for wheellocks, it took 5 minutes to load and fire. Ouch! So my 2-minute reload was really good... Hmm.... divergent idea. I'm thinking that perhaps Martial Weapon Prof is sufficient to use a dra-gun. However, without the EWP, the reload time is 5 minutes and there is a -2 recoil penalty to hit. The EWP eliminates the attack penalty, and cuts reloading down to 2 minutes. Weapon Focus will cut that down by 5 rounds, Rapid Reload will cut it down 5 rounds, and a Masterwork weapon will cut that down 5 more rounds. * So Joe Fighter can pick one up and shoot it (at -2), but 5 min reload. * Greg Gunner (EWP) shoots with no penalty, and reloads in 2 min. * Xavier Xbow (Rapid Reload) is as inaccurate as Joe, but uses his experience (feat) to reload in 4.5 minutes (no big deal). * Pete Pistoleer (EWP, WF) shoots at +1, and reloads in 15 rounds. * Randy Rapid (EWP, RR) shootes at +0, reloads in 15 rounds. * Steve Specialist (EWP, WF, RR) shoots at +1, reloads in 10 rounds. A Masterwork weapon would accomplish the following: * -5 rounds on reload time (as mentioned above) * +1 on any rolls on the misfire chart -- worst case now is a damaged weapon, 1/6 of 1 in 20 shots (i.e. 1 in 120 shots), and repairable. * +1 to hit, as normal * +2 DC to repair (yes, harder), due to more intricate parts A magically enchanted gun... hmm... * Standard masterwork benefits (-5 reload, +2 DC to repair) * Total of +1 on misfire chart per +1 enhancement of the weapon (overlaps masterwork benefit) * -1 DC to repair (starting at masterwork +2) per +1 enhancement (yes easier... magic smooths over rough edges) * Normal Hardness and HP upgrades for being a magic weapon * Restriction --> a "flaming/flaming burst/etc." enchantment is too unstable with the propellant. It may not be applied to such a weapon. Wouldn't a Brilliant Energy gun be cool? (+2 enhancment, to avoid anything worse on a "1" than a jammed weapon.) replacing gunpowder with alchemical powder... I love it! What a simple explanation that sidesteps the whole "cannons and bombs" development line. Whitepowder and Smokepowder are both taken for names... Need a new name. Regardless, I can then impose an alchemical restriction, perhaps on volatility, that prevents the powder from being used in large quantities or it explodes spontaneously. There, no bombs or cannons! And then more can be acquired from alchemists, for the gunsmith to make new "bullets" (shot + powder), without him making homebrew gunpowder. Okay, new comments?
krossbow 10-27-06, 12:43 PM	Hey, I see no problem with the rogues carrying around 15 loaded pistols. Heck, they'd probably end up looking like meryl strife from trigun (500 derringers strapped to the inside of her cloak). Really, if it only improves the rogues a little, then is it going to be that big of a problem?