Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SnarlyBear 08-04-07, 09:49 PM	I have a young adult black dragon (which has a breath weapon range of 80') flying over my players, who are underwater trying to sneak up on a encampment. The dragon flies 20 feet overhead and *ralphs* his breath upon the adventurers, who are 10 or 15 feet below the surface. Does the acid hit them? Does the contact with the water's surface stop the belch? Since (black) dragons can breathe acid underwater, I assume that it would affect the party. If you don't think so, what about if the dragon is below the surface and the party is flying overhead--would the draco then be able to breathe his acid upon them? Any response would be greatly appreciated!!
Ertai Planeswalker 08-04-07, 10:14 PM	If the black dragon can indeed breath acid underwater as you say it can, then i'd rule that obviously, it's breath weapon is not affected by water and yes, the party can be affected if underwater or flying over it. However, where do you get the info that black dragons can do that underwater? Because by default, i'd say that the acid does not affect them.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-04-07, 10:24 PM	If the black dragon can indeed breath acid underwater as you say it can, then i'd rule that obviously, it's breath weapon is not affected by water and yes, the party can be affected if underwater or flying over it. However, where do you get the info that black dragons can do that underwater? Because by default, i'd say that the acid does not affect them. It says so right in their description. Water Breathing (Ex) A black dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged. So yes, the black dragon's breath weapon is unaffected by water barriers. Actually, the only energy effects majorly affected by water are fire spells, as the surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for them.
Dheran 08-04-07, 10:47 PM	It says the black dragon can use its breath weapon while submerged. This is a completely different situation. You've got a major density change transitioning from air to water, and that's going to affect the aim of the breath weapon greatly. Most of the acid is going to splash back when it hits the water rather than continuing forward, so it's just going to get diluted at the surface rather than being aimable. Standing shock waves make pretty good barriers. If the black dragon wants to breathe accurately it needs to be in the same element as its targets. You shouldn't try to create abilities that aren't in the listed specifications.
Ertai Planeswalker 08-04-07, 11:16 PM	I agree with Dheran. If you want to create a custom rule, then maybe you could allow the breath weapon to affect target submerged 5Ft. deep + 5ft. for every 5 dice of damage the breath weapon deals. I can imagine a pc swimming right beneath the surface still being affected by a breath weapon, as it thrusts itself into the water. However, at 30 ft below the surface, that becomes unrealistic.
Watchman 08-05-07, 01:54 AM	Then again, the targets in this case are only something like 10-15 feet deep... Given the distances the dragon's breath can reach, I'd say the issue of the water surface tension and whatnot was really moot by the virtue of sheer stream pressure already. (I'm assuming here the dragon is trying to take the shot from more or less directly overhead.) Not that dragon breath weapons had a terribly amiable relationship with real physics anyway of course. Throw in enough appropriate Feats and the critters can all but have their breath weapons fetch them newspapers...
Legdiwena 08-05-07, 02:00 AM	How high is dragon above water? Just saw it in original post, my bad.
Kradlo 08-05-07, 09:58 AM	The black dragon can use its breath weapon while submerged. As to whether or not the breath weapon used from out of the water can go through the water unhindered, that's a GM call to make. The question then becomes, what are the consequences of either ruling? Think of it from both perspectives. Remember that with Dragon Shamans, draconic heritage feats, half-dragons, and spells like Acid Breath, PCs can also belch out breath weapon attacks. If the breath weapon stops at the water, then plunging into the water remains an effective defensive strategy, at least until the black dragon enters the water. If the breath weapon continues into the water, then the flying dragon has an enormous advantage. Again, sounds like a GM call, and I might base it on whether or not it will result in a challenging fight or a TPK.
celloshane 08-05-07, 03:04 PM	Following the rules for using water as cover in the DMG, I would say that the PC's have Improved Cover against an attack from outside the water. This gives them a +4 Reflex bonus as well as the effect of Improved Evasion. On the other hand, if they aren't aware of the dragon they don't get a reflex save.
Dheran 08-05-07, 10:16 PM	On the other hand, if they aren't aware of the dragon they don't get a reflex save. You get to make a Reflex save even when you're asleep; awareness has nothing to do with it. Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move? A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate. In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves: If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves. If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly. If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws. If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws. If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.
UnrelentingHoror 08-05-07, 10:45 PM	I seem to remember some reference to effects passing between water surface and whatnot in a feat in Lords of Madness. I'd say it reaches them, but they would get some sort of cover bonus to their saving throws. Now if said black dragon had the aquatic casting feat they'd be hosed ;)
StevenO 08-05-07, 11:39 PM	My take is to have the remaining acid stream turn into a burst when it contacts the water. Take the distance remaining (80'-20'=60' here) and conver it into a hemispheric burst with a radius equal to half the remained distance. If firing out of the water I'd treat the breath weapon normally. In both cases a +2 circumstance bonus to the save could be appropriate.
tarkin 08-06-07, 12:25 PM	I personally would rule that the change from air to water provides partial cover, in either direction. +2 to reflex saves, nothing else affected.
mvincent 08-06-07, 04:51 PM	From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#aquaticTerrain): "A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land" (this applies even to weapons that can be used underwater).
Watchman 08-06-07, 04:53 PM	Breath Weapons, despite the name, aren't strictly speaking "weapons" though - no to-hit roll needed, right ? Same as area-effect spells basically.
TheAnthroDM 08-06-07, 05:01 PM	Breath Weapons, despite the name, aren't strictly speaking "weapons" though - no to-hit roll needed, right ? Same as area-effect spells basically.It doesn't mention weapon, they have total cover, period.
primemover003 08-06-07, 05:30 PM	I'd rule that they gain Improved cover netting them the +4 bonus to their Reflex saves and Improved Evasion. Otherwise the dragon would have a serious advantage. Of course this really only applies to the aquatic dragons like Blacks, Bronzes, Greens, and Golds, etc.
tarkin 08-06-07, 05:48 PM	Mvincent, you cut that quote off, just before it became interesting. The full quote is: A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects. I would say that this IS a magical effect, does not have an attack roll, and is not a fire effect. Therefore, the rule you quoted is not valid. I would still use my "partial cover" ruling for either direction. The changeover from air to water should affect the attack but not entirely block it.
ravenshrike 08-08-07, 02:33 PM	The PC that gets hit gets imp. cover against it(Given that it's a line, and unless they're idiots there's no way for the dragon to get LOE on all of them, or even two of them). Of course, one wonders how the dragon spotted them as it's blindsense would not work across the boundary(Ex ability, which means they rely on non-magical means which, like sonar, would get entirely futzed up.) The rules for sight only apply to those in the water, not those looking into the medium from outside it(which is considerably harder). And there will probably be a 20 - 50% miss chance on the breath weapon since light itself shifts across the boundary, thus distorting one's aim. Well, unless one has specialized eyes for it(think osprey), but in that case one's vision on land is distorted and spot checks would necessarily suffer.
mvincent 08-08-07, 02:46 PM	Mvincent, you cut that quote off, just before it became interesting. Are you certain that you fully understand what the second sentence actually implies (in context (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat))?
Knightblde 08-08-07, 02:59 PM	IRL bullets only travel about 6' when shot into water (Based on my memory of Myth Busters) The game rules take this into effect by saying you have total cover to people out of water, this makes sense. When it come to black dragons and breath weapons, however, I think the point of the dragon is to be as effective in water, as he is out. Since he can use his breath weapon in water, I would allow it at no penalty. To any other nonmagical effect (like a dragon's breath weapon which is supernatural) I would say no way.
Pentar 08-08-07, 04:59 PM	It doesn't mention weapon, they have total cover, period. So what? If someone under total cover is caught in the area of a Fireball, are they not hit by it? The Dragon doesn't need to make an attack roll. A Breath weapon is an area effect. Everything in the area is affected. End of sentence. I agree with Tarkin - I would allow a +2 reflex save modifier for being under soft cover, and that's about it.
mvincent 08-08-07, 06:16 PM	If someone under total cover is caught in the area of a Fireball, are they not hit by it?Not neccesarily. If they are hit by it, it would only be because the fireball is a spread (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) effect, and so can go around the total cover (i.e. enter from an angle that the person is not covered from). If the person had total cover in all directions (or the spread effect has to travel too far around the cover to reach them), then they are not hit. The surface of the water represents a fairly large plane. Assuming the surface does provide total cover, I believe it would be pretty difficult for a spread affect to travel around it. Also; a black dragon's breath weapon is a line, so the spread rules wouldn't even apply, even if one were treating breath weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon) as spreads... which I don't believe they are.
primemover003 08-08-07, 06:35 PM	Looking at this again I would treat the surface of the water as cover against any of the dragons with the "Water Breathing" special ability and their breath weapons and against any other breath weapon as Improved cover. The surface of the water should be some barrier to an attack that has to cross it. The PC's in this case need any protection they can get if they don't have Swim speeds. Once the Dragon gets in the water however it's gloves off, abilities work as normal.
pukunui 08-08-07, 06:47 PM	I'd be inclined to give some sort of cover, if not total cover, in this case ... not necessarily because the surface tension would mess up the line or that it would get too diluted but more because of the whole distorted light thing and stuff like that. Sorry, that's not very articulate. what about if the dragon is below the surface and the party is flying overhead--would the draco then be able to breathe his acid upon them? I've actually been wondering about this myself. If a black dragon is submerged, can it use its breath weapon on creatures out in the air? Would the line of acid be able to come out of the water into the air? I know if you put a hose into a pool of water and aim it up, the stream of water will come bubbling out like a fountain ... so I don't see why the line of acid wouldn't work that way as well. If the answer is yes to the water-to-air line, then shouldn't it also work the other way?
ravenshrike 08-08-07, 11:23 PM	If the answer is yes to the water-to-air line, then shouldn't it also work the other way? Because you're going from a higher pressure to a lower pressure medium, whereas air to water is lower to higher pressure. Big difference.
pukunui 08-09-07, 03:42 AM	Because you're going from a higher pressure to a lower pressure medium, whereas air to water is lower to higher pressure. Big difference. True. Fair enough. So would it be ok to infer from your statement that a submerged black dragon would be able to fire its acid line at enemies outside the water? I'm fine with it not working the other way ... but the idea of some PCs wandering past a brackish pool only to have a line of acid come squirting out of it at them without a visible source would be pretty freaky.
Pentar 08-09-07, 02:21 PM	Not neccesarily. If they are hit by it, it would only be because the fireball is a spread (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) effect, and so can go around the total cover (i.e. enter from an angle that the person is not covered from). If the person had total cover in all directions (or the spread effect has to travel too far around the cover to reach them), then they are not hit. My point is that Total Cover does not preclude you from being affected by Area spells. It depends entirely on the direction in which you are receiving the cover, of course. But the simple virtue of slapping "total cover" on something does not mean "Area effects need not apply". Besides, there are several other points which should be considered: a) Black Dragons are water dwelling creatures (they live in swamps and their habitats and lairs are ofter underwater caves or accessibly only via water ways). It stands to reason water would not be a hindrance or barrier for one of their most effective attacks. b) The breath weapon works fine when the Dragon is submerged. This indicates that it functions normally regardless of the medium being water or air. One can make the logical leap that the acid stream can therefore transition between water and air with little difficulty. c) Black dragon tactics often start with the Dragon submerged and attacking land-based opponents. Again, one can assume that they can easily and reasonably launch a breath-weapon attack to start their assault. If you don't like the idea that "liquid acid" can move freely in water (and yet have no difficulty with the idea of a dragon actually spewing said substance from their mouths) then consider it acid "globs" or jelly... sort of like the substance an ooze might be made from.
Toki_Wartooth 08-09-07, 03:25 PM	My point is that Total Cover does not preclude you from being affected by Area spells.Actually, Total Cover does seem to preclude you from being affected by Area spells (unless it is a spread effect that can somehow find away around the cover). Given mvincent's clarifications of the rules, your point does not seem to stand.
Pentar 08-09-07, 03:30 PM	Actually, Total Cover does seem to preclude you from being affected by Area spells (unless the area can somehow find away around the cover). ...uhm... You should read that sentence again and consider the word "preclude" and "unless" carefully. And really, just stop to think about it a moment. Total cover is very often relative - unless you're in a sealed box. A person hiding behind a doorway has Total Cover from a Wizard's direct line of sight/effect. But the doorway isn't. So the Wizard can cast Wall of Fire (an area spell) and if the person behind the Cover is caught in the wall's affected area, then they are hit. See? It is entirely circumstantial. Hence my sentence, which I will quote myself again: But the simple virtue of slapping "total cover" on something does not mean "Area effects need not apply".