Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 11:00 AM	Alrighty, after the two-page fisaco that was my LAST equipment-advice thread, I come to you with another issue from the same game, still in production; this one should attract LESS crap, because it doesn't have the dread K-word. Now, Starting this campaign, as before stated; It's going to be very Steampunk/Neo-Rennisaince in feel, and this means the application of firearms. Now integrating firearms isn't going to be difficult by any means; I'm planning on just replacing the various bows with them; since we're talking Post-Matchlock guns, I'm planning on focusing available weaponry on Single-Action and Double Action revolvers, and perhaps Lever-Operated rifles if the PCs are lucky. This - is no big deal, and not the focus of this advice request. My problem is I want to lessen the emphisis on magical weapons and armor, to open the doors for more tech-savvy armors that fit the Clockwork style of the rest of the technology, but would go above the dreaded "+1 Plate Mail" unwritten rule. Now I'm not sure how to scale back the uses of magic on equipment, I've considered alot of things; increasing the price was one, but then by the time the party could afford that +1 Longsword, a mundane Progressive Vibroblade would pwn it for effectiveness at a cheaper price. Then I thought about just scaling up the power of +1 magical enchantments...but then It'd be stupidly overpowered, and any character with a magic item would become The Fury. Sadly, the most promising thing I've seen so far was a concept based on using FF7-styled materia slots in weapons, Which would fit with the continuity, oddly enough; since most of the every-day sorts of magic and mysticsim I've based off Classical Alchemy,(As in 'Aether and Ashes' not 'Equvilent Exchange!') The Materia system caught my eye because it was a progressive system, and it improved with the characters, rather then '8000 gold = MAGICAL ASSWHUP'. I have some nifty ideas for clockwork weapons and armor that would really fluff-out the continuity and make it a new and interesting experience, but most of them, like say the Ripper Axe; would utterly replace some magical Items. Ripper Axe Two-Handed Exotic Weapon 1d12 Damage 20/x3 critcal Speical: The spinning blade of the axe deals an additional 2d4 rending damage on a critical hit. Blah, in and of itself that's not a bad weapon, except for the fact that it's just about as good as a Flaming Burst greataxe, without the whole 8,000 gold cost. Any advice on scaling back magic, but not making it utterly impotent?
John Q. Mayhem 05-08-06, 11:07 AM	I think you'd like Grim Tales. It really handles this sort of thing a lot better than D&D or d20 Modern. It's a d20 system game that expands the d20 Modern classes to 20 levels, converts PrC abilities and a bunch of fantasy stuff to d20 Modern talents, and handles the powerful-but-rarer-magic very very well. It's built in such a way that you can just plug in different feats and talents; it even uses regular D&D spells, so you can stick 'em in mostly whole cloth. Wonderful system, I like it a lot.
Subedei 05-08-06, 11:19 AM	I wonder why we don't use clockwork axes today if we've been able to make them since the industrial revolution...
tarkin 05-08-06, 11:21 AM	Actually, this does not sound that bad. I like it. Which would you rather have: 1d12 20x4 or 1d12 20x3 with +2d4 on a crit Frankly, 20x4 is the better deal (particularly if you have a high strength as the strength gets multiplied on the crit.) So now the question becomes, is 1d12 20x4 excessive There is a martial weapon 2d4 20x4 already. That averages 5 points of damage on a regular hit. Is an upgrade from 2d4(5 average) to 1d12(6.5) average, reasonable for Martial ->Exotic? One handed sword [or axe] goes from 1d8(4.5) to 1d10(5.5). So I think that that 1d12 20x4 is at worst, only a tiny bit better than would be allowed. As 1d12 20x3 with +2d4 on crit, is not as goot as 1d12 20x4, I personally would rule that: Strict: No, just becuase they don't like the description with sounds like a chainsaw. Loose/Power/Anything Goes Game: Yes, 1d12 20x3 with +2d4 on a crit is a perfectly acceptable Exotic Two Handed weapon
Subedei 05-08-06, 11:36 AM	How about pistol swords? You could go with either the single shot variety or some form of revolver. Kind of popular in the 17th-19th centuries...well...Not really that popular, but cool!
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 11:39 AM	I wonder why we don't use clockwork axes today if we've been able to make them since the industrial revolution... Your lack of phanache at that thinly veiled barb makes me weep for my generation's wit. Strict: No, just becuase they don't like the description with sounds like a chainsaw Well I'm not really worried about OTHER people ruling against it; I'm the DM here. My problem is I Don't want to make magic comepletly secondary to anything else; I'd like magic to be resonably powerful, but just exceedingly hard to come by; I'm pretty decent at templating up base weapons with extra abilities (Progressive Vibrocell: -1 to Hit, but +2 damage, for example) and just building crazy new weapons, like the MultiRev triple-barrled revolver. I just don't want to have to A) buy a new book, because I'm a starving college person, or B) comepltly remove magic because it's like putting Psionics into a Faerun campagin.
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 11:40 AM	How about pistol swords? You could go with either the single shot variety or some form of revolver. Kind of popular in the 17th-19th centuries...well...Not really that popular, but cool! NO. *******. GUNBLADES. My Final word on this.
Keenath 05-08-06, 12:16 PM	Your lack of phanache at that thinly veiled barb makes me weep for my generation's wit.It's "pinache". My problem is I Don't want to make magic comepletly secondary to anything else; I'd like magic to be resonably powerful, but just exceedingly hard to come by.So you're basically, what, looking for Steampunk? An alchemy-based materia system would certainly work. Question: Do you want tech and magic to be crossed and mingled (as in Eberron) or seperated and antithetical (as in Arcanum)? It'll be a balance issue. Can I buy a technologically advanced handgun, then enchant it for more power? Or would the magic interfere with the tech, causing neither to work properly? Generally, the magic-hates-tech thing is explained as magic twisting the laws of physics that tech depends on -- coefficients of friction change slightly, causing belts to slip; viscosity changes or lubricants don't coat, causing gears to seize; gas pressure laws alter, exploding gunbarrels; and so on. Meanwhile, technological devices tend to solidify the universal laws, impeding the use of magic around them. Simple machines aren't badly affected by magic, and simple spells similar -- levers and big gears don't have twiddly little bits that can throw everything out of whack. Complex machines with lots of parts, or machines built with very tight tolerances tend to get screwed up by mystic effects more. Thus, a simple pistol would be fine to enchant, but a high-quality revolver might have problems, and a real beautiful piece of work (effectively +3 or so) couldn't stand any magical influence at all. Of course, this also sets up an interesting class of magic and machines that are built just to counter the other -- spells whose reality-twisting is specifically directed to break devices, and machines with massive, complex clockworks with no purpose other than stabilizing reality and making magic difficult in their vicinity. Anyway... If you want them to work together, it seems like a (mechanically) easy thing to just say, "High quality weapons cost the same and have the same effect as +1 weapons", and so forth. Technological enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack with magical enhancement bonuses, so you'd have that handled already. Maybe put something in place so that under some circumstances, they do stack.
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 12:29 PM	So you're basically, what, looking for Steampunk? Steampunk is the key word here, it's my favorate Genre of literature and such, and It's always been a want of mine to build a truly Industrial-Steampunk gameplay universe. I'm doing it now, it's called Blight so far. An alchemy-based materia system would certainly work. Question: Do you want tech and magic to be crossed and mingled (as in Eberron) or seperated and antithetical (as in Arcanum)? It'll be a balance issue. Can I buy a technologically advanced handgun, then enchant it for more power? Or would the magic interfere with the tech, causing neither to work properly? I liked the build some fellow on this board did for 'Materia' so that you could 'gather' it and apply it to equipment, and that it gained experience with you and gaind more power. The Idea I wanted to employ was similar to a 'Magic Slot' system, where you can basically take your token magical obejct, and insert it into said weapon with said compatable slot for said moderate bonus; but How to employ this without blowing the power level to astronomical reaches is beyond me. I'll give anyone who finds that Materia system a cookie, by the way. Generally, the magic-hates-tech thing is explained as magic twisting the laws of physics that tech depends on -- coefficients of friction change slightly, causing belts to slip; viscosity changes or lubricants don't coat, causing gears to seize; gas pressure laws alter, exploding gunbarrels; and so on. Meanwhile, technological devices tend to solidify the universal laws, impeding the use of magic around them. My inital build of the Magic system used Psionics and that basic concept, but I didn't like it because it put a huge limiter on what either class type could really do; and that just didn't crunch right. I'd say Magic has a harder time manifesting ON technology, rahther then just both cancelling eachother out; As the mingling of friction, magnetic fields and so forth play with the ethereral currents that power the arcane. If you want them to work together, it seems like a (mechanically) easy thing to just say, "High quality weapons cost the same and have the same effect as +1 weapons", and so forth. Technological enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack with magical enhancement bonuses, so you'd have that handled already. Maybe put something in place so that under some circumstances, they do stack. That'd work but then it's just a quality thing again, and it doesn't really make minor magics that much better then usual; I've already re-geared the new racial lists so that they make up in part for lacking any magical bonuses to Skills or Ability Scores and such for quite a few levels, so all the races are a weak to moderate +1 LA if you ported them directly into a stnadard D20 game: The intial goal was to make magic, ...well magic again, back to the days when Gauntlets of Ogre Power were some seriously hot ****.
A_monk_00 05-08-06, 12:41 PM	It's "pinache". For the record, it is 'panache'. Anyway, while steampunk isn't my forte, I did like the whole Materia idea from Final Fantasy 7. I haven't seen it written out for pen and paper, but I really haven't looked either. Just watch out when your players are high enough to kill the Emerald Weapon. Master Materia for all!
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 12:48 PM	For the record, it is 'panache'. Anyway, while steampunk isn't my forte, I did like the whole Materia idea from Final Fantasy 7. I haven't seen it written out for pen and paper, but I really haven't looked either. Just watch out when your players are high enough to kill the Emerald Weapon. Master Materia for all! That went clear over my head; Considering I've never played FF7 in my life. But I digress, I simply liked the build of that one fellow; FF-related aspects aside... and you know I think it just popped to the top of the fourm. I'll nance over and have a look, then give you the skinny.
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 12:54 PM	Found it. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=623471) I like the concepts presented here, and the idea of a 'Soul' varient stat intruiges me with the many, many possiblites it has, considering that a good deal of the game has to do with living or life-mimicing machines or one sort or another, that could make it a viable additon, and with some of my fledgling ideas, not a dump stat. Oh yes, the wheels doth turn inside my head.
InkBlot 05-08-06, 01:53 PM	NO. *******. GUNBLADES. My Final word on this. It's your setting. I'm not going to argue. I just want to point out that, although popularized by Final Fantasy, gunblades are (http://www.selectfire.com/products/grad/) and were (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v405/NinjaNerd321/Gunblades/) very real. They were most popular in the era of single-shot pistols. Normally one would fire his pistol*, drop it, draw his sword, and charge. A gunblade obviously saves time, and makes it less easy to lose your gun. *Just as often one would draw two pistols, fire them, drop them, draw two more, fire those, drop them, etc. - untill he ran out of pistols or was within reach of his enemy's sword. Then he'd draw his sword.
Necropolitan 05-08-06, 01:58 PM	It's your setting. I'm not going to argue. I just want to point out that, although popularized by Final Fantasy, gunblades are (http://www.selectfire.com/products/grad/) and were (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v405/NinjaNerd321/Gunblades/) very real. They were most popular in the era of single-shot pistols. Normally one would fire his pistol*, drop it, draw his sword, and charge. A gunblade obviously saves time, and makes it less easy to lose your gun. *Just as often one would draw two pistols, fire them, drop them, draw two more, fire those, drop them, etc. - untill he ran out of pistols or was within reach of his enemy's sword. Then he'd draw his sword. ... For the love of... I am FULLY aware of the existence of gunblades, I'm also FULLY aware of the IDIOCY surrounding them, only exceeded by the Buster Sword and The 'Masamune'. I'm not opening the door to that wave of moronic asshattery by building a Gunblade weapon, end of story: It's just not going to happen. If you want to play with a 'Gunblade' go play Final Fantasy 8. You want a pointy firearm in my D&D game; weld a bayonet to your pistol and take the -2 like a good monkey for using a ranged weapon in melee. EDIT: This, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/NinjaNerd321/Gunblades/gunblade33.jpg) This, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/NinjaNerd321/Gunblades/gunblade19.jpg) And this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/NinjaNerd321/Gunblades/gunblade28.jpg) Would be acceptable in my game; but it'd simply be a NORMAL firearm with a 1d4/1d6 slashing bayonet on it for melee damage, rahter then just A lethal 1d3 Unarmed strike from a Pistol Whip. It'd also be an exotic weapon. But it's still a far cry from the usual 'ZOMG 2D6 SWORD WITH A 3D12 PISOL ON IT!?!@?!?!' crap I get proposed.
Hippokrene 05-08-06, 03:15 PM	I'm getting the idea that Necropolitan is fine with guns with blades or blades attached to guns but freaks out if anyone suggests making a gunblade. :P
John Q. Mayhem 05-08-06, 05:15 PM	So, you're fine with gun-knives but don't like gun-swords? *shrug* ok. I think WH40K chainswords and buzzsaw-axes is a much bigger can o' worms m'self, but YMMV. I agree that 1d12X4 is a more elegant way to handle it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-08-06, 07:22 PM	... For the love of... I am FULLY aware of the existence of gunblades, I'm also FULLY aware of the IDIOCY surrounding them, only exceeded by the Buster Sword and The 'Masamune'. I'm not opening the door to that wave of moronic asshattery by building a Gunblade weapon, end of story: It's just not going to happen. If you want to play with a 'Gunblade' go play Final Fantasy 8. Gunblade in FF* weren't projectile weapons. In the deepest of ironys... they were vibroblades, the likes of which you already professed to like. Before attacking a concept because you feel some form of smug superiority to the source, one would be best served actually knowing fig one about it. You want a pointy firearm in my D&D game; weld a bayonet to your pistol and take the -2 like a good monkey for using a ranged weapon in melee. I can shoot from range, then close for combat with the attached blade. This simian knows a bit more about how such things work than you. Would be acceptable in my game; but it'd simply be a NORMAL firearm with a 1d4/1d6 slashing bayonet on it for melee damage, rahter then just A lethal 1d3 Unarmed strike from a Pistol Whip. It'd also be an exotic weapon. That's exactly what the poster you just ripped into for no reason was talking about. But it's still a far cry from the usual 'ZOMG 2D6 SWORD WITH A 3D12 PISOL ON IT!?!@?!?!' crap I get proposed. Except no one's EVER said that on this thread. Now, even though you don't deserve it because of your attitude: Pistol, Bladed light martial ranged weapon (see text) 1d4 x4 piercing 30ft Price: 35gp Weight: 2lb Bladed pistols are slightly elongated pistols with a sharpened edge running along the top where the sight would normally be located. A bladed pistol is treated almost exactly as a normal pistol, except in melee combat, it can be used as a dagger (1d4 19-20x2 slashing) except it has no range increment as a thrown weapon.
KodiakLegacy 05-09-06, 12:09 AM	A good book for you to check out for steampunk D&D would be Sorcery and Steam. They have lots of flintlock weapons, steamcraft armor, and mixing of technology and magic. Check it out, I think you'd like it- very much like the Arcanum RPG computer game.
Tony Vargas 05-09-06, 01:41 PM	I'd say Magic has a harder time manifesting ON technology, rahther then just both cancelling eachother out; As the mingling of friction, magnetic fields and so forth play with the ethereral currents that power the arcane. In that case, you might consider assigning each possible technological gimmick a '+' equivalent just like a magical enhancement gets. The tech might not cost as much as the magic, but if you upgrade it with magic, the tech '+' equivalents count towards calculating the cost of the magical upgrade. FREX: Say you have a high-tech 'vibroblade' (equivalent to Keen) sword made of suprior steel (+1 enhancement bonus to AB & Dam). That's the equivalent of a +2 magical weapon. Now, if it's a prototype or otherwise custom-made, it should cost at least as much as a magical +2 sword (8kgp), but, if it's a production model, it might cost a lot less (maybe 2k or 800 or even 160 gp, depending on whether dozens, hundreds or tens of thousands of them are being fabricated). Either way, if you decide to add 'flaming burst' (+2) to it, the cost of would be the same as adding it to any other +2-equivalent weapon (32kgp-8kgp= 24kgp, 12kgp of that 'materials'). The effect of this would be that custom-designed high-tech weapons and magical weapons would be comparably pricey, but commonly-produced high-tech weapons (as defined by the DM, of course), could be comparatively cheap and readily available. But, those cheaper alternatives would still be expensive to further enhance. Actually, you might even make the 'masterwork' requirement for enchantment preclude the use of mass-produced 'production' tech, making magic and magic/tech-hybrid weapons comparably expensive. This would have the effect of making magic less common - since lower-powerd magical weapons would generally be eschewed in favor of cheaper tech items of comparable power. But, more powerful magic items, though rare (as always), would still be quite relevant.
Necropolitan 05-09-06, 01:53 PM	I'm getting the idea that Necropolitan is fine with guns with blades or blades attached to guns but freaks out if anyone suggests making a gunblade. :P Are you new to the internet or something? Typically when you say 'Gunblade' in relivence to an RPG or other related topic, you get a bazillion braindead fanboys running around talking about how 'ZOMG TEH GUNBLADE IS TEH ULITMAT WEPON' And other such ******** - it irritates me INCREDABLY, because I like at least a SEMBLENCE of realism in my games, it makes me happy, and keeps my usual PCs happy, because my items are always 'Nifty' as they put it. Now, the typical 'Gunblade' as opposed to a 'Bladed Pistol' is a massive revolver with a bloody bastard sword attached to the frame... which wouldn't work at all, ever; and again, perhaps not on this thread, Mr. Takeitoutofcontext, but elsewhere 'Gunblades' get insanely unbalenced stats 'suggested' regularly. Now I admit a certian Bias against MOST FF-oriented topics, a bias I'm working to change, if you couldn't tell; because as a DM the sheer idiocy surrounding the popular ones has in the past, made my life with my Players uneedfully difficult: Anyone who's suffered from the 'Buster Sword Syndrome' should understand what I mean. Now then, I apologize for any lashing out; I'm just rather reserved about opening the door for the Final Fantard's full-blown asshattery - I've already got my foot in it contemplating that 'Materia' system, and if I made a exact-dupelicate 'Gunblade' I fear I'd be dooming my game before it's even off the ground, comprende? I HAVE worked one of those smaller pistols into a weapon...which works fine. Pistol, Bladeslinger's Exotic Firearm 1d6/19-20x2, 2d8/x3, 30' Range, A Bladeslinger's pistol is a speiucally crafted weapon; difficult to use correctly but effective in the righht hands; It's a specially-built high caliber Autorevovler with the lower secrtion of the frame extended into a heavy recurved blade, fucntioning in trained hands as both a .45 Long Colt pistol and a light short sword. Normal Penalties for using a ranged weapon in melee apply, but the heavy bayonet can be used as a 1d6 slashing melee weapon; Due to the high qualiity of manufacture and innate customization of a Bladeslinger Pistol; it's alwasy treated as a Masterwork item, and a Light weapon for off-hand determnination. Now then, I've explained myself, and apologized, can we actually get BACK to the problem rahter then dwelling on the fact I dislike the fanboys of the FF games immensely? Bah, and Valingrade - You drop the 'smug sense of superiority' unless you'd like to be reminded of the 150lb, 10' long sword you proposed. Everyone makes mistakes: But Noone likes the fact rubbed in.
Necropolitan 05-09-06, 02:10 PM	In that case, you might consider assigning each possible technological gimmick a '+' equivalent just like a magical enhancement gets. The tech might not cost as much as the magic, but if you upgrade it with magic, the tech '+' equivalents count towards calculating the cost of the magical upgrade. FREX: Say you have a high-tech 'vibroblade' (equivalent to Keen) sword made of suprior steel (+1 enhancement bonus to AB & Dam). That's the equivalent of a +2 magical weapon. Now, if it's a prototype or otherwise custom-made, it should cost at least as much as a magical +2 sword (8kgp), but, if it's a production model, it might cost a lot less (maybe 2k or 800 or even 160 gp, depending on whether dozens, hundreds or tens of thousands of them are being fabricated). Either way, if you decide to add 'flaming burst' (+2) to it, the cost of would be the same as adding it to any other +2-equivalent weapon (32kgp-8kgp= 24kgp, 12kgp of that 'materials'). The effect of this would be that custom-designed high-tech weapons and magical weapons would be comparably pricey, but commonly-produced high-tech weapons (as defined by the DM, of course), could be comparatively cheap and readily available. But, those cheaper alternatives would still be expensive to further enhance. Actually, you might even make the 'masterwork' requirement for enchantment preclude the use of mass-produced 'production' tech, making magic and magic/tech-hybrid weapons comparably expensive. This would have the effect of making magic less common - since lower-powerd magical weapons would generally be eschewed in favor of cheaper tech items of comparable power. But, more powerful magic items, though rare (as always), would still be quite relevant. This works nicely mechancailly, but I'm still looking for flavor; I'd have to do some fancy re-tooling of the greater magical enhancements to make them 'magical' again, in a way. Mechanically it's sound as for keeping magic farther away, but it also In-Character dilutes some of the 'magic' associated with arcane weapons; Keen doesn't seem as neat and wonderous when you can reproduce it's exact function with a Vibrocell. I'm still considering that Aether idea I've been bastardizing off the materia thread; the idea of the Aetherstones attached to a weapon or item gainign experience with a character at a greatly reduced rate seems interesting; an item with more or less 'Item Levels' that grant it speical bonuses; here's the framework I've been playing with. Bob, Fighter level 10, has had a single Aetherstone in his Ripper Axe since level 1; this aetherstone is effectivly Item Level 2. Now having it at 1/5th the character's experience assures a level 20 character only gets to have a level 5 Aetherstone; and I coudl do different things depending on the sort of Aetherstone, but this is my most promising idea. Giving them 'Grades' of stone, like any Ore or Alloy, would allow for different effects, lets call it Poor, Normal and Superior for discussions sake. An aetherstone gains a +1 bonus per level it gains, sort of like a Magical Figther's BAB. But this bonus applies to different things depending on the grade. Poor Grade adds it's plus to the weapon's Attack bonus as a +1 to +5 bonus depending on the level of the character, and how long that character has been carrying it in an item (So a 20th level fighter who's only been carrying said Aetherstone since 10th would only have a 2nd level instead of a 5th) Nomral Grade adds it's plus to the weapon's Damage. And Superior Grade, the extremely rare and comaprativly expensive grade; Add bonus HD to the character in equvilence to it's plus. Just an idea I've been tooling with since last night.
Tony Vargas 05-09-06, 02:55 PM	Mechanically it's sound as for keeping magic farther away, but it also In-Character dilutes some of the 'magic' associated with arcane weapons; Keen doesn't seem as neat and wonderous when you can reproduce it's exact function with a Vibrocell. True, but it was just for the sake of making the example straightforward (I wanted to avoid debating what a technological enhancement might be 'worth'). I was assuming you'd come up with various technological effects that'd be distinct from magical enhancement in function as well as cosmetics - the idea was just to assign each one an aproriate '+' equivalent. Take the Ripper Axe, for instance - it's really not quite as good as a burst weapon, since burst weapons do some extra damage all the time. It's more comparable to Thundering, which does extra damage only on a crit. So, you might peg it as being +1 equivalent. It might be a lot cheaper than a thundering weapon, but it'd be as expensive to 'upgrade' via magic, not because it's base cost is high (the normal forumla for an upgrade is cost of the final item less cost of the starting item), but because it's technology 'interferes' with the magic.
Necropolitan 05-09-06, 03:00 PM	True, but it was just for the sake of making the example straightforward (I wanted to avoid debating what a technological enhancement might be 'worth'). I was assuming you'd come up with various technological effects that'd be distinct from magical enhancement in function as well as cosmetics - the idea was just to assign each one an aproriate '+' equivalent. Take the Ripper Axe, for instance - it's really not quite as good as a burst weapon, since burst weapons do some extra damage all the time. It's more comparable to Thundering, which does extra damage only on a crit. So, you might peg it as being +1 equivalent. It might be a lot cheaper than a thundering weapon, but it'd be as expensive to 'upgrade' via magic, not because it's base cost is high (the normal forumla for an upgrade is cost of the final item less cost of the starting item), but because it's technology 'interferes' with the magic. Mmm, true: this would save me from having to rebuild the rest of the magic system with Aetherstones. Well I guess it comes down to which works better with my current equipment set and gameworld, I'll have to run some one-shot combats with both to see which has better crunch. But I'll probably go with your idea, because it's nice and simple; and it gives me an excuse to make up spiffy new magical enchantments to keep Arcane weapons sparkly and so forth.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-09-06, 03:35 PM	Bah, and Valingrade - You drop the 'smug sense of superiority' Nope, still there. I may have typed a weight wrong, but I'm not randomly abusive to people about things I freely (an apperently proudly) admit I know nothing about. You asked for vibro-blades and yet, hate the mention of the second most quintessential vibro-blade in fiction because you have a burning hatred for the source. Toodles :)
Necropolitan 05-09-06, 03:39 PM	Nope, still there. I may have typed a weight wrong, but I'm not randomly abusive to people about things I freely (an apperently proudly) admit I know nothing about. You asked for vibro-blades and yet, hate the mention of the second most quintessential vibro-blade in fiction because you have a burning hatred for the source. Toodles :) Mmmm, blatent trolling. Still; Dislking a source > 10' long slabsword. :D
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-09-06, 04:03 PM	'I weep for my generation' that they can justify verbally abusing people out of hand. ;)
Tony Vargas 05-09-06, 06:02 PM	But I'll probably go with your idea, because it's nice and simple; and it gives me an excuse to make up spiffy new magical enchantments to keep Arcane weapons sparkly and so forth. That could be fun. You'd want to come up with: 1) which existing magical enhancements can be duplicated by technological gimmicks (like the vibroblade doing the same thing as Keen). While this makes magic/tech less unique, it also reduces any 'stacking' that might go on - if vibro = keen, then keen + vibro don't stack. If keen works the usual way, but vibro, say, increases the crit multiplier, you have opened a loophole for abuse. 2) List of unique technological gimmicks, thier mechanics, and a '+' equivalent for each. 3) Additional unique magical enhancements to further differentiate magic from technology. 4) List of 'off the rack' or 'mass produced' gimmicked weapons, that are available for much lower cost than magical or 'prototype/custom' ones.
John Q. Mayhem 05-10-06, 08:04 AM	Mmmm, blatent trolling. Actually, Vaal is exactly right.
Necropolitan 05-10-06, 10:09 AM	Actually, Vaal is exactly right. Funny, he's just been harassing me because I'm not everyone's friend: Last time I checked not apologizing for having a strong opinion was called 'Backbone'. I already apologized and explained myself once, if he wants to contuniue to be an immature little snot, that's his harassment report, not mine. I've had bad experiences between PCs and Final Fantasy oriented game material, and it's left me with a fairly bad taste in my mouth towards it and D&D, I don't like it, I consider most of it incredably unbalenced, and It's just about a kneejerk reaction to shut it down veheminatly. If I offended anyone I apologize, I'm only human. I already manned-up to my reasons, twice now, and explained them; As far as I know there's little more I can do short of outright sninivling and begging for forgiveness, which I don't do, because I don't belive I should have to beg for it if it's deserved. I'll also admit I'm a cynical, sharp-tounged sort of fellow, and I don't pull many punches: most people appriciate that, because coupled with it, I'm always honest and usually quite fair. Now then, do you want to sit here and be self-righteous and asinine; focusing on a readily admitted mistake or do you want to see the spiffy new equipment I've engineered with Tony's idea? That could be fun. You'd want to come up with: 1) which existing magical enhancements can be duplicated by technological gimmicks (like the vibroblade doing the same thing as Keen). While this makes magic/tech less unique, it also reduces any 'stacking' that might go on - if vibro = keen, then keen + vibro don't stack. If keen works the usual way, but vibro, say, increases the crit multiplier, you have opened a loophole for abuse. 2) List of unique technological gimmicks, thier mechanics, and a '+' equivalent for each. 3) Additional unique magical enhancements to further differentiate magic from technology. 4) List of 'off the rack' or 'mass produced' gimmicked weapons, that are available for much lower cost than magical or 'prototype/custom' ones. I like the idea of 'Off The Rack' equipment, it fits my new equipment list well, I'll post it all up in a seperate thread once I have it done; you're way worked MUCH better in playtesting, and I've discovered a spiffy idea for using Aetherstones. I've decided to make Aethestones a sort of 'Wand for your Gun', Weapons can have a slot or seires of slots that you can insert an Aetherstone into; only Masterwork weapons can have slots, and 50% of all masterwork weapons begin with a slot integrated, though you can have one added for a fee. An Aetherstone has a set-number of charges for whatever power it has, it could be as simple as a Magic Weapon spell attached to a Revolver, allowing 50 shots to be expelled at +1 bullets. Once a Aetherstone's charges are expended, it crumbles and is destroyed, and they cannot be recharged. So, it's a cheap expendable way to get an 'enchantment' on a weapon, I'm working up exact rules for them later today.
fendrin 05-10-06, 11:04 AM	I've had bad experiences between PCs and Final Fantasy oriented game material, and it's left me with a fairly bad taste in my mouth towards it and D&D, I don't like it, I consider most of it incredably unbalenced Heh, I semi-agree. In my experience, ANYTHING a player thinks is 'cool' is going to be translated too powerfully. I have had some luck with FF to D&D translations, they just have to be done carefully, with the same eye to balance that a good DM will use when adding any new material. Like what you are doing here. On that note, I want to give a vote of approval to your choice of making the 'gunblade' an exotic weapon. Not only were they unusual, they were often considered to be less effective and harder to use than a standard gun or blade. Mostly this was because the weight of the gun threw off the balancing of the blade, and vice versa. I do, however, think that a gunblade could be made using other types of blades and guns. So long as neither aspect exceeds a martial weapon in effectiveness. Thus a longsword with a larger pistol would be possible. Come to think of it, though, the grip involved would probably restrict it to one handed blades. I've decided to make Aethestones a sort of 'Wand for your Gun', Weapons can have a slot or seires of slots that you can insert an Aetherstone into; only Masterwork weapons can have slots, and 50% of all masterwork weapons begin with a slot integrated, though you can have one added for a fee. An Aetherstone has a set-number of charges for whatever power it has, it could be as simple as a Magic Weapon spell attached to a Revolver, allowing 50 shots to be expelled at +1 bullets. Once a Aetherstone's charges are expended, it crumbles and is destroyed, and they cannot be recharged. So, it's a cheap expendable way to get an 'enchantment' on a weapon, I'm working up exact rules for them later today. Hmm, I like the idea, but you may want to consider a couple things: If bullets can be made magical anyway, then Aetherstones are a more difficult way to get the same effect. Also, if the gun itself can be enchanted, magic ammunition of any sort is going to seem overpriced. I mean really, who buys magic arrows instead of a magic bow? More importantly: if Aetherstones can provide a variety of effects, then the ability to swap them out rapidly becomes a game balance issue. I have a few suggestions for how this can be addressed. Only a skilled professional can install or remove an Aetherstone. It requires a skill check of some sort (probably craft[weaponsmith]) It is a complicated process that requires a significant amount of time. To use a pre-existing example, a Soulknife has to meditate for 8 hours to change the enchantments on his/her mind blade. Once an Aetherstone is installed, it can't be removed until it runs out of charges. Perhaps it physically bonds to the slot, or maybe early removal will cause a negative effect, like draining the Aetherstone or triggering an explosion. Edit: Just had a couple of thoughts for making Aetherstones a little more mechanics-friendly. Perhaps instead of enchanting the bullets as they are fired, perhaps they create bullets? That way the player only has to track one number (charges left on the A-Stone), rather then essentially having to track two different forms of ammunition. Also, some interesting ideas for A-Stone effects, to make them more interesting: Alter the material of the bullets (silver, adamantium, etc) Silence/Flash suppress the gun (useful for assassins) Split the bullet (so a 1d8 gun might instead do 2d4 or 2d6) Give the bullet splash damage Convert the attack into an area effect (especially apropiate for shotguns) Web/bola entangling shot
Necropolitan 05-10-06, 11:13 AM	Heh, I semi-agree. In my experience, ANYTHING a player thinks is 'cool' is going to be translated too powerfully. I have had some luck with FF to D&D translations, they just have to be done carefully, with the same eye to balance that a good DM will use when adding any new material. Like what you are doing here. Thank you for the understanding. On that note, I want to give a vote of approval to your choice of making the 'gunblade' an exotic weapon. Not only were they unusual, they were often considered to be less effective and harder to use than a standard gun or blade. Mostly this was because the weight of the gun threw off the balancing of the blade, and vice versa. I do, however, think that a gunblade could be made using other types of blades and guns. So long as neither aspect exceeds a martial weapon in effectiveness. Thus a longsword with a larger pistol would be possible. Come to think of it, though, the grip involved would probably restrict it to one handed blades. I was planning on a alernate version that used a .357 Short round (2d6 instead of 2d8) and had a longsword blade attached to it, for 1d8 slashing damage; putting emphisise on melee over the ranged aspect, but it'd be a one-handed weapon, rather then a Light weapon. Hmm, I like the idea, but you may want to consider a couple things: If bullets can be made magical anyway, then Aetherstones are a more difficult way to get the same effect. Also, if the gun itself can be enchanted, magic ammunition of any sort is going to seem overpriced. I mean really, who buys magic arrows instead of a magic bow? More importantly: if Aetherstones can provide a variety of effects, then the ability to swap them out rapidly becomes a game balance issue. I have a few suggestions for how this can be addressed. Only a skilled professional can install or remove an Aetherstone. It requires a skill check of some sort (probably craft[weaponsmith]) It is a complicated process that requires a significant amount of time. To use a pre-existing example, a Soulknife has to meditate for 8 hours to change the enchantments on his/her mind blade. Once an Aetherstone is installed, it can't be removed until it runs out of charges. Perhaps it physically bonds to the slot, or maybe early removal will cause a negative effect, like draining the Aetherstone or triggering an explosion. And thus, you read my mind. I was planning on doing all of the above things; plus aetherstone bonsues don't stack with magical weapons; you can only have an aetherstone slot on a non-magical weapon; and Aetherstones are going to have a limited caster level for spell-effects.
Keenath 05-10-06, 11:42 AM	As a way to prevent swapping aetherstones: Each time you remove an aetherstone from its parent weapon, it shorts as it leaves the slot, and loses X charges. X should be whatever seems right for balance -- I'd use 1, unless it seems people will swap too much with that penalty. If the shorting penalty drains it, it crumbles/burns out/goes dark when removed just as it would when fully drained from use.
Necropolitan 05-10-06, 11:48 AM	As a way to prevent swapping aetherstones: Each time you remove an aetherstone from its parent weapon, it shorts as it leaves the slot, and loses X charges. X should be whatever seems right for balance -- I'd use 1, unless it seems people will swap too much with that penalty. If the shorting penalty drains it, it crumbles/burns out/goes dark when removed just as it would when fully drained from use. I'm something of a hardass; If you attempt to remove an Aetherstone before it's charges are expended; not only does the Aetherstone crumble; but the discharge of the remaining alchemic energy requires the item to make a Fort save as per rules, of be irrepreably destroyed by the meta-arcane discharge: melting the weapon into slag. Making PCs choose carefully when they get one grafted.
ravenshrike 05-10-06, 11:50 AM	It's "pinache". Actually, it's panache.
Necropolitan 05-10-06, 11:57 AM	Actually, it's panache. For the love of... drop it already! :ahem:
Watchman 05-10-06, 03:47 PM	In D&D you can set a sword (or whatever) permanently on fire, make it freeze enemies' innards, electrocute them, or any number of other interesting effects with magic. You can also turn it into a "pure energy" one (ie. Brilliant Energy) which contemptuously ignores such irrelevancies as material obstacles and refuses to be slowed down by something that isn't type a magical force field. Or make a thrown weapon teleport back to the user. You're going to have to move onto the field of functionally magical rubber-science engineering (or flat-put science fiction superscience stuff) to replicate those effects with tech, at least without enormous hassle with fuel tanks, capacitors and the like. And if you're going to lug around a can of napalm and a hose, why bother using it to set an axe on fire when you might as well use it for a proper flamethrower...? Especially if wonder-tech weapons like chain-axes, clockwork portable gatlings and such actually can't bypass certain sorts of damage immunities - the one provided by that low-level missile-defense spell springs to mind as a common and quite pesky one, nevermind now those possessed by assorted magical and/or extraplanar critters (most alignement-based ones would appear a particularly thorny issue) - I'd say that sort of stuff alone would keep magical enchantements viable against competition from presumably much easier mass-produced and hence cheaper gadgets. Which in turn would probably help to underline a sort of quite credible art/science dichotomy between the two fields; magic is very much an art not anyone can do and can flat out ignore the constraints of reality if enough energy is expended, whereas technology can as such be produced and employed by anyone and en masse but is also much more firmly anchored in the constraints of what passes for the laws of applied physics in the place. Or, put this way - you can make cars and radios and rifles and cannon and chainsaws and lasers on assembly lines, but the damn wizard in his tower can craft belts that let you fly, capes that change you into a bat, ACME(tm) pocket-reality storage spaces and sentient weapons that accelerate your subjective time and turn you invisible on request... Oh yeah. And then there's Resurrection nevermind Reincarnation. The steampunk-technology versions of those things tend to have... glitches. Just ask that Frankenstein fellow. Just thought I'd point that out. No point in letting tech replicate all the weird reality-warping stuff magic can achieve - after all, at that point the two would be essentially the same thing except one is rather easier to produce, and "miracles for sale in street corners" is rather more of an ultra-tech sci-fi thing (of the "POOF you're dead, POOF you're back alive" school)...
Morlachmir 05-14-06, 01:33 AM	Two words: Iron Kingdoms. They have everything you're trying to do, and more. Not a fan myself, but it sounds exactly what you want.