Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fissionessence 02-16-08, 11:01 PM	Is the action in the title possible? I tried to figure it out by combining climb checks with jump checks, then with grapple checks, but it seems like it's kind of weird. Plus, shouldn't the creature being jumped on take some kind of damage just from having a guy jump down onto him? I tried looking up monsters that might use this kind of tactic, but I'm not really familiar with the monsters and I wasn't able to find anything. I also looked up traps that drop stuff onto characters, but it was just something like "+12 melee attack; 2d6 damage" or whatever. Anyway, here's what I'm thinking so far: 1. Climb check to scale the wall. 2. Another climb check to climb across ceiling without falling. (Assuming the climb skill is high enough). The player could skip this if he is going to jump from the wall. 3. If the character is jumping from the wall, make a jump check.* Skip this step if the character is just dropping straight down. 4. Possibly give the target a reflex save? What if he succeeds?** 5. Make a check to see if the dropping (or jumping) character takes damage. Jump and/or tumble could work here (I think). 6. Deal damage to the creature the player fell on? How much? Based on the character's weight? 7. Grappling automatically begins. Do not follow the 'Starting a Grapple' rules on p156 of the DMG; The grapple has already started, since you just wtfpwnd your target. * If the character fails the jump check in step 3, the character falls onto the ground a distance determined by the measure of the jump check failure, and then must make a jump (or tumble) check to see if he takes damage from falling. He gets a -4 modifier to this check for not having control over the fall? ** If the target succeeds the reflex save, the jumping character makes a jump (or tumble) check to prevent falling damage, and to determine if he lands standing or fallen over. He is also pushed out of the target's square in the direction that he jumped from , or random if he dropped from above. How does that look? As an ancillary question, are their any creatures that do climb (crawl) on ceilings innately? What kind of DC should there be for climbing like that? (As opposed to 'climbing' by hanging from the ceiling.) ~ fissionessence
Grod_The_Giant 02-16-08, 11:35 PM	I'd say 1. Climb check for the wall, then a jump check (you can't really climb across a ceiling) to get above the target's head. Use the normal rules for Jump. 2. Target gets a reflex save (DC 15?). If he makes it, the jumper gets a reflex/tumble save (DC 15?) or he takes falling damage, lands next to his target (use the d8 method to pick the direction) and the maneuver ends. If the target fails, he takes the falling damage (which is described under the Environment section of the DMG, but is basically 1d6/10 feet fallen) 3. Jumper makes a grapple check. No attack of opportunity. You just fell on the target, true, but you have to grab him now. Perhaps give a penalty to the target- after all, he just had someone land on him. 4. Normal grapple. Oh, and the Darkmantle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm) hangs on ceilings. Monsters with the spell "Spider Climb" as an innate or spell-like ability could do that as well.
jaelis 02-16-08, 11:39 PM	I'd have the jumper simply make a touch attack and then a grapple check, just like starting a normal grapple. But if he succeeds, I'd use the "falling object" damage from the DMG pg 303 in place of the normal grapple damage. The attacker himself would take damage from the fall by the normal rules. He could make a jump or tumble check to reduce the damage (as usual), and if he hits his target, I'd let it count as a soft surface. --- Climbing on a ceiling is covered in the climb skill rules. The DC is 25, assuming there are handholds.
Nathreet 02-17-08, 12:01 AM	You need hide and move silently checks to catch the target unaware. You must move at 1/4 speed (1/2 climb x 1/2 sneak = 1/4). If you take a -5 penalty to either climb or hide&ms, you can move at 1/2 speed. If you take the -5 to both you can move at full speed. If you wait for him on the ceiling I think you'd just need the hide check. The target gets a -4 penalty to both for being inattentive (unless he has some reason to look UP, not just look around). He also gets a -1 penalty for every 10 feet of distance between you and him. If you succeed, he will be flatfooted (loses dex bonus to AC). Dropping is a free action. Once you drop you can take any action you want. If you fall on the guy from at least 10 feet up, you deal 1d6 per 200 lbs. of weight, plus 1d6 per 10 feet beyond the 1st 10 feet. If you weigh 101-200lbs., subtract 1d6. 51-100lbs 2d6, 31-50lbs 3d6, 11-30 lbs. 4d6. 0d6 or less means you deal no damage from falling on your opponent. You also take 1d6 of damage per 10 feet you fall, but 1d6 of it is non-lethal for an intentional jump, plus a DC 15 jump check can reduce the lethal damage by another 1d6. I assume you automatically land on your feet unless you land on someone, b/c the rules don't seem to cover falling except for the amount of falling damage you take for large distances. I mean, 99.5% of the time even a non-hero like me can jump down and land on his feet.
Sinfire Titan 02-17-08, 01:08 AM	Buy Complete Scoundrel. Read the Skill Tricks section. It has the rules you need for this.
RavenDrake 02-17-08, 02:45 AM	As a matter of fact, it has almost exactl what the OP proposed as a skill trick, Corner Perch. It doesn't let you climb across the ceiling, but you can shimmy up the wall in a corner and hide until something comes, then attack.
Lyndis 02-17-08, 05:59 PM	Monks have some sort of ACF where they can climb up walls at half their normal speed as a move action right?
InkBlot 02-17-08, 06:20 PM	What do you mean by ACF? Monks climb just like every other character. Anybody can climb at half their speed (instead of 1/4) by taking a -5 penalty. Read your Player's Handbook. Monks climb faster because they have a bonus to their move speed, and how fast you climb is based on your move speed. There's three seperate skill tricks that let you move up a wall faster/easier. One lets you make a jump check, and add the distance to how high you climb that turn. One lets you climb an extra 10 feet so long as you don't fail your check. One lets you walk up a wall at 1/4 speed instead of climbing it. Each can only be used once per encounter (or once per minute). There's the psionic feat Up The Walls which lets you run up a wall as easily as you can across the floor. It only works while you're psionically focused, and it only lets you take one move up the walls. So if you don't end that move standing on a ledge, or holding onto something, then you'll fall. As a psionic feat, you have to be psionic to take it, but it's pretty easy to become psionic (take the Wild Talent feat, or take a level in any psionic class).
Lyndis 02-18-08, 01:51 AM	ACF = Alternative Class feature. The one I mentioned is found in Dungeonscape.
InkBlot 02-18-08, 01:48 PM	Ah, I remember that one now! It's really neat. I always though Slow Fall was lackluster anyway. The Wall Walker alternative class feature works almost exactly the same as Up The Walls, but Up The Walls lets you use your normal move-speed (there's no difference at high enough levels). Seems there's a lot of ways to pull this off! Maybe it'll be a standard feature in 4e. And is it just me, or does the Standing Jump alternate class feature in the same book really blow massive chunks? A Monk's speed bonus to Jump checks adds more than his skill ranks do! With this alternate class feature, you'd be cutting your Jump skill modifier nearly in half just so you can avoid doubling jump check DCs if you don't get a running start. You can take Leap Of The Heavens at 1st level to get the same benefit, without giving up your speed bonus. There isn't any feat you can take to give yourself a persistant +60 enhancement bonus to speed.
BruceLeeroy 02-19-08, 01:37 PM	Check out the Battle Jump regional feat from Unapproachable East. It does what you want, other than the initial wall climbing.
mvincent 02-19-08, 01:46 PM	I'd use: 1) Climb check 2) Hide check 3) Treat as a charge attack (+1 for height advantage)... you can start a grapple with a charge attack if desired. 4) Use jumping and/or tumbling for attacker to take less damage from the fall.