Post/Author/DateTime	Post
psiphre 05-03-07, 01:01 PM	question: Can the "keen" (+1 equivalent) ability be added to a ranged weapon, such as a bow or a crossbow? the "keen edge" spell reads as such: Keen Edge Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One weapon or fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.) Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw. the description of the spell allows for arguments to come for both sides. for "no": - the spell specifically lists projectiles, but not projectile weapons for "yes": - the spell specifically lists weapons that can not be made "keen"; the list is very short: natural weapons. - the spell specifically states "one weapon" may be made keen Moving outside just the spell description, there are other arguments; for "no": - in the DMG, there is no way to roll a "keen longbow" - in the DMG, the description of "keen" does not state "bows, crossbows and slings so crafted bestow the increased threat range on their ammunition" (similar to the "flaming" ability) for "yes": - in the DMG, there is no way to roll "keen ammunition" - in the DMG, the description of "keen" does not state "this property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition" (similar to "brilliant energy") That being said, and moving out of the DMG: 1. The "keen" ability doubles the threat range of a piercing or slashing weapon 2. Though they are listed on the "weapons" table, ammunition has no listed damage dice, threat range or critical multiplier 3.the description of the "arrow" states that it may be used in melee as an improvised weapon that deals damage as a dagger of its size with a threat range of 20 and a critical multiplier of x2 1. the "keen" ability doubles the threat range of a piercing or slashing weapon 2. bows and crossbows are listed on the "weapons" table as piercing weapons with damage dice, a threat range and a critical multiplier 3. there are no rules in the description of "longbow", "composite longbow", "shortbow" or "composite shortbow" that detail using a bow as a weapon without ammunition from this we can conclude one of four things: A) "keen" can be placed on an arrow, but only applies when it is used in melee combat B) bows, though they may be enchanted "keen", do not bestow the "keen" property on their ammunition C) the rules for some reason left out an explicitly permissive clause allowing bows to be enchanted keen and bestow the property on its ammunition D) the rules for some reason left out an explicitly denying clause disallowing bows to be enchanted keen and bestow the property on its ammunition further, moving out of the "big three" entirely, we have the "elven greatbow" from the d20 SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm in short, any arrows loosed from the bow are considered keen, regardless of the enhancement bonus of the arrow fired. since it is obviously debateable by RAW, all I'm looking for is a straight answer. an errata, something from custsrv, a rule that I missed reading. Anything that will state, explicitly, the legality of keen on a bow.
Daisuke 05-03-07, 01:48 PM	I would say no because even with the spell it is the ammo that is being enhanced. Also the bow is not what is dealing the damage, the ammunition, specifically the SHARP arrow-head, is.
Garonak 05-03-07, 01:54 PM	I would say no because even with the spell it is the ammo that is being enhanced. Also the bow is not what is dealing the damage, the ammunition, specifically the SHARP arrow-head, is. With that logic you wouldn't be able to add any enchantments on the bow, because it's the arrow that does the damage. That's why we have the nice sentence: Projectile weapons bestow this blablabla on the missile. Per RAW you can't add keen on a bow. Could be that it's something in Magic Item Compendium, but it's not in the dmg.
Daisuke 05-03-07, 04:52 PM	Perhaps it could be construed to say that, however there is a difference between enhancements like shocking and Keen. Keen weapons are meant to have particularly sharp points and edges. I doubt anyone is goint to use a bow that they can cut their fingers on.:)
psiphre 05-03-07, 04:56 PM	With that logic you wouldn't be able to add any enchantments on the bow, because it's the arrow that does the damage. That's why we have the nice sentence: Projectile weapons bestow this blablabla on the missile. Per RAW you can't add keen on a bow. Could be that it's something in Magic Item Compendium, but it's not in the dmg. what, specifically, in the RAW indicates tat you can't put it on a bow? the description of the spell 'keen edge" does specifically list weapons that can't be keened (even though they can be sharp); natural weapons. it doesn't explicitly prohibit it being cast on a bow. the reason, as I see it, why it is castable on ammunition is in case you want to keen 50 arrows and distribute them between two or more archers, which you wouldn't be able to do with a single keened bow. basically, it comes down to this: RAW: "keen" doubles the threat range of a piercing or slashing weapon. RAW: is a bow a piercing or slashing weapon? yes, it is a piercing weapon. RAW: is there a provision in the spell or enhancement that prohibits its placement on a bow? no, only one that prohibits its placement on a natural weapon.
bondious 05-03-07, 04:58 PM	My vote: "Yes" to Keen melee weapons and ammunition, and "No" to Keen bows, crossbows, etc. If you want the effects of a "Keen Bow", then you'll have to take the Improved Critical feat. Otherwise, use Keen ammunition. [EDIT: same thing goes for the "Impact" ability, in my opinion.] :bounce:
mvincent 05-03-07, 05:08 PM	It's been discussed here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11477127#post11477127), here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3446539#post3446539) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-479627). Basically: Keen arrows: yes Keen bows: no
psiphre 05-03-07, 06:27 PM	It's been discussed here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11477127#post11477127), here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3446539#post3446539) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-479627). Basically: Keen arrows: yes Keen bows: no seems more like: RAW: yes RAI: no
mvincent 05-03-07, 07:17 PM	seems more like: RAW: yes RAI: noFor bows or arrows (or both)? I feel that listing bows (rather than arrows) in D&D as doing damage has caused more confusion than it's worth. There are just too many logical inconsistencies that occur if common sense is not used there. The description for keen edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm) seems to give a suitable indication of the writer's intent (i.e. bows-no, arrows-yes), but others will debate that too.
psiphre 05-03-07, 08:00 PM	For bows or arrows (or both)? I feel that listing bows (rather than arrows) in D&D as doing damage has caused more confusion than it's worth. There are just too many logical inconsistencies that occur if common sense is not used there. The description for keen edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm) seems to give a suitable indication of the writer's intent (i.e. bows-no, arrows-yes), but others will debate that too. sorry, I should have been more clear. it seems to me like: keen bows RAW: yes keen bows RAI: no Keen arrows RAW: yes Keen arrows RAI: yes it comes down to a "common sense" argument for me, as well: a melee fighter who pays for a "keen" enchantment gets effecitvely infinite attacks with a double threat range. a ranged fighter who pays for a "keen" enchantment gets 50 attacks with a double threat range. contrasted to a different enhancement, sich as flaming: a melee fighter who pays for a "flaming" enchantment gets effectively infinite attacks that deal 1d6 extra damage on a hit. a ranged fighter who pays for a "flaming" enchanted weapon gets effectively infinite attacks that deal 1d6 extra damage on a hit why the discrepancy? if it's for balance reasons, doubling the damage of a shortbow on every single hit -- 100% more damage is way, way, way more powerful than tripling the damage of a short bow on 5% more hits. from a pure numbers perspective, a flaming shortbow is going to deal, on average, 147 damage in 20 hits, while a keen shortbow is going to deal 77. and honestly, a flaming, thundering shortbow is going to be doing the same damage as a keen shortbow's critical every time it hits. consider that: 8,000gp for a shortbow that is effectively critting every round AND bypassing damagr reduction (elemental damage), vs 2,000 for a shortbow that crits one more time out of 20
mvincent 05-04-07, 12:55 AM	it comes down to a "common sense" argument for me, as wellIt appears to more come down to a "balance" argument for you.
psiphre 05-04-07, 12:33 PM	It appears to more come down to a "balance" argument for you. i can't help it if they're one and the same to me.
mvincent 05-04-07, 12:55 PM	i can't help it if they're one and the same to me.If someone say, put poison on their bow, would you allow this to work when the bow first does damage? This is pretty much similar to having a magically sharpened bow doing more damage, even though it doesn't bestow this sharpness on its arrows. I can agree that balance-wise, both seem fine. I can also agree that strictly by the literal RAW, this is a possible interpretation. If you wish to label allowing such things as 'common sense' because they are balanced, then that is your choice. But overly-literal interpretations of RAW can lead to some wierd results (I can provide other examples if desired)
psiphre 05-04-07, 01:10 PM	If someone say, put poison on their bow, would you allow this to work when the bow first does damage? This is pretty much similar to having a magically sharpened bow doing more damage, even though it doesn't bestow this sharpness on its arrows. I can agree that balance-wise, both seem fine. I can also agree that strictly by the literal RAW, this is a possible interpretation. If you wish to label allowing such things as 'common sense' because they are balanced, then that is your choice. But overly-literal interpretations of RAW can lead to some wierd results (I can provide other examples if desired) I'm sure you can... I think it was you that provided them in one of the other threads. like "speed for a medium character in elven chain is 30, small is 20", which would make dwarves faster? i'm not advocating an "overly literal" reading of the rules. I'm advocating an internally consistent reading of the rules. on the "weapons" table, "short bow" is listed as a piercing weain that deals 1d6 damage with a threat range of 20 and a critical multiplier of x3. there is no other way to read that line, other than "short bow is a piercing weapon". keen edge, and the enhancement "keen", increase the threat range of a piercing or slashing weapon. saying that you can't have keen on a bow is like saying that 2+2=3.
solbergb 05-04-07, 01:26 PM	It's not so much a balance argument as where the enhancmements appear in the DMG tables. Some appear on melee weapon table only. Some on missile weapon table only. Some on both. Keen is on the melee weapon only list. Which means not on projectile weapons. Many DM's allowe melee weapon stuff on arrows though, as they work as improvised melee weapons (such as ghost touch and keen, but likely not vicious as the downside is missing).
mvincent 05-04-07, 01:34 PM	keen edge, and the enhancement "keen", increase the threat range of a piercing or slashing weapon. saying that you can't have keen on a bow is like saying that 2+2=3.You are reiterating the same argument without addressing any of my points. Keen actually sharpens a weapon. Insisting it is the bow rather than the arrows that does the damage implies that arrows could not be keen (we know otherwise from the keen edge spell) and that the bow must be poisoned (rather than the arrows) in order to poison someone with a bow shot. Besides, I never said you couldn't view this as 'common sense', merely that it did not fit my own view of common sense, and that you were unlikely to change that opinion. You're welcome to try to convince others here that it makes logical sense though (but you did ask).
Toki_Wartooth 05-04-07, 01:46 PM	i can't help it if they're one and the same to me.How are you not getting this! 'Common sense' indicates that it's the arrows that actually damage the target. A sharpened bow would be useless if it didn't bestow any sharpness on it's arrows. The Elven Greatbow you mentioned earlier isn't described as keen, but rather it says "any arrows loosed from the bow are considered keen". How much more common sense do you need!? Nothing wrong with allowing keen bows, but why are you trying to convince us of some stupid rationalization? Just allow the things. Don't start a thread just to tell us the rationalization is 'common sense' though. It's not.
psiphre 05-04-07, 03:10 PM	It's not so much a balance argument as where the enhancmements appear in the DMG tables. Some appear on melee weapon table only. Some on missile weapon table only. Some on both. Keen is on the melee weapon only list. Which means not on projectile weapons. Many DM's allowe melee weapon stuff on arrows though, as they work as improvised melee weapons (such as ghost touch and keen, but likely not vicious as the downside is missing). going strictly by the tables in the DMG, you can't roll keen arrows, and you can't roll a mighty composite shortbow +3 or +4.
psiphre 05-04-07, 03:13 PM	You are reiterating the same argument without addressing any of my points. Keen actually sharpens a weapon. Insisting it is the bow rather than the arrows that does the damage implies that arrows could not be keen (we know otherwise from the keen edge spell) and that the bow must be poisoned (rather than the arrows) in order to poison someone with a bow shot. Besides, I never said you couldn't view this as 'common sense', merely that it did not fit my own view of common sense, and that you were unlikely to change that opinion. You're welcome to try to convince others here that it makes logical sense though (but you did ask). i'm not addressing your points because they're irrelevant. you're making a pedantic argument in order to deny a demonstrably underpowered item into the game because you believe "keen" in the spell description means "sharp" and not "perceptive".
Toki_Wartooth 05-04-07, 03:24 PM	you believe "keen" in the spell description means "sharp" and not "perceptive". "keen" in the spell description does means "sharp" and not "perceptive". (and you seem to be unable to make "keen" observations)
psiphre 05-04-07, 03:48 PM	"keen" in the spell description does means "sharp" and not "perceptive". (and you seem to be unable to make "keen" observations) really? This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. I don't see anything about sharpness in there.
Chimaera2000 05-04-07, 03:55 PM	I fully admit to being a min-maxer and sometimes rules-lawyer. However, in this case I say, "exact language be darned!" Whether or not a bow can be keen will hardly overpower a game. The issue can be swiftly resolved by talking to one's DM instead of debating semantics on a message board. Heck, if they've watched Princess Mononoke, they might even be OK with a vorpal bow too! ....unless this is simply a theoretical discussion. In this case: carry on, citizens. (salutes)
psiphre 05-04-07, 04:16 PM	I fully admit to being a min-maxer and sometimes rules-lawyer. However, in this case I say, "exact language be darned!" Whether or not a bow can be keen will hardly overpower a game. The issue can be swiftly resolved by talking to one's DM instead of debating semantics on a message board. Heck, if they've watched Princess Mononoke, they might even be OK with a vorpal bow too! ....unless this is simply a theoretical discussion. In this case: carry on, citizens. (salutes) that's a significant thing to consider. it's demonstrably weaker than other +1 enchantments.
mvincent 05-04-07, 04:34 PM	you're making a pedantic argument in order to deny a demonstrably underpowered item into the game I have no such desire to disallow keen bows (by all means: use them). I'm merely pointing out a congruency. Arrows can keen (even if you say they don't do damage), and poisoned bows should not work... not because they are unbalanced, but because of common sense. The argument you presented is 'logically'* tied to those things, is all. * I might be using the term differently than you are used to. Let me know if I need to explain more
psiphre 05-04-07, 04:40 PM	I have no such desire to disallow keen bows (by all means: use them). I'm merely pointing out a congruency. Arrows can keen (even if you say they don't do damage), and poisoned bows should not work... not because they are unbalanced, but because of common sense. The argument you presented is 'logically'* tied to those things, is all. * I might be using the term differently than you are used to. Let me know if I need to explain more to address your point: is there a spell which adds poison or poison damage to a weapon, or a "poisonous" enchantment in the DMG? (i ask because i don't have access to my books atm)
Toki_Wartooth 05-04-07, 04:43 PM	I don't see anything about sharpness in there.They are using the word "keen" to define the D&D definition of "keen". Therefore, when they are referencing "magically keen" in the definition of keen edge, they are using a standard, non-D&D definition of "keen". The most standard definition of keen is "sharp". The alternate definition of keen ('perceptive') simply does not work in the context of the spell description (which applies only to piercing or slashing weapons). I assumed you were making a joke by implying that the writers intending for keen weapons to be 'perceptive'. I find no way to take you seriously. Maybe you should stop being silly, or at least make your jokes funny.
mvincent 05-04-07, 04:53 PM	to address your point: is there a spell which adds poison or poison damage to a weapon, or a "poisonous" enchantment in the DMG?There is the Dagger of Venom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#daggerofVenom), but the regular weapon poisoning rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison) should be fine. They say: "When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon <snip> he takes the poison’s initial damage" Following your argument, the bow would have to be poisoned rather than the arrow.
psiphre 05-04-07, 05:07 PM	There is the Dagger of Venom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#daggerofVenom), but the regular weapon poisoning rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison) should be fine. They say: "When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon <snip> he takes the poison’s initial damage" Following your argument, the bow would have to be poisoned rather than the arrow. as per the poisoned dagger, I would allow a bow of venom: This black +1 bow allows the wielder to use a poison effect (as the spell, save DC 14) upon a creature struck by an attack once per day. The wielder can decide to use the power after he has struck. Doing so is a free action, but the poison effect must be invoked in the same round that the wielder strikes. as for mundanepoisons, which should be different, but which i'll give away so as not to be stuck in a difference of rulings... since it's gone after a single use, and also since drawing an arrow is part of making an attack with a bow, i'd rule that it's irrelevant whether the bow or the arrow was smeared with poison. as an arrow rests against a bow and moves across it as it is fired, if you smeared poison on your bow, the arrow would pick it up as you fired, delivering it. does that answer your question? also, I think you're misunderstanding my argument: I'm not saying that a bow must be the target of keen RATHER than the arrows. arrows are explicitly allowed by the spell. I'm saying that a bow should be a legal target of the "keen edge" spell, or a keen enchantment.
stout 05-05-07, 01:30 PM	I assumed you were making a joke by implying that the writers intending for keen weapons to be 'perceptive'. It's magic, you know? There is magic available to make an item aware; and even specific things to make weapons intelligent enough to aid in an attack. Since we're dealing with magic in a fantasy world, why is it not believable that an arrow could gain perception and make minor course corrections to account for variations in wind while in flight? It would be similar to a modern day real life ICBM. In reality, it's not the arrow that makes it possible to do more damage, it's the bow. Tighter string, finer compound system that removes a lot of the variables that lead to inconsistancies between shots, etc etc. The arrow doesn't try harder to hit a critical spot, the bow has to be fashioned better and worked more skillfully to hit a critical spot. Precision aiming to achieve a critical hit is a function of the bow, not of the arrow, dispite the fact that the arrow is what's doing the damage. The arrow will do damage wherever it strikes. The bow makes it strike the femoral artery for extra damage, above what the arrow would normally have caused.
Frugal 05-05-07, 01:52 PM	Maybe I'm missing the point here, I think the question is can you apply the keen enhancement to a bow and have the keen enhancement apply to all arrows fired from the bow, what's the confusion here? This has nothing to do with making the bow sharper and more than frost means your bow is frozen or thundering means it's loud. It's a magical enhancement placed on the ranged weapon which then applies the effect on any arrow fired from the bow. Now with that in mind, I don't see there being any great balance issue from allowing you to make a keen magical bow and it's consistent with the way enhancements work on ranged weapons. Now the keen edge spell is another matter and I'm not 100% sure on how that should be ruled.
mvincent 05-05-07, 02:25 PM	Maybe I'm missing the point hereYup. Things like flaming, frost, etc. all say "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the <ability> energy upon their ammunition". Keen does not say this. That is pretty much why this thread exists in the first place.
Frugal 05-05-07, 02:49 PM	Yup. Things like flaming, frost, etc. all say "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the <ability> energy upon their ammunition". Keen does not say this. That is pretty much why this thread exists in the first place. Yep, I was just pointing out that the whole, "making the bow sharper makes no sense" argument doesn't carry much weight. Personally, I don't see any balance issue or thematic/flavour issue with this.
mvincent 05-05-07, 03:30 PM	Yep, I was just pointing out that the whole, "making the bow sharper makes no sense" argument doesn't carry much weight.Howso? If the flaming ability did not say that bows bestowed the ability on it's arrows, I would not argue that the rules allowed such, nor would I be using the argument that "it's really the bow that's doing the damage". As mentioned, there's nothing wrong with allowing a keen bow if you desire, or deciding that the keen ability should actually have the missing "bows bestow the ability on it's arrows" text. It is just that (based on the previously presented facts) the "it's really the bow that's doing the damage" argument is simply not a valid, logical argument. Personally, I don't see any balance issue or thematic/flavour issue with this.Me neither (as stated earlier). Again, you seem to be missing the point.
bondious 05-05-07, 04:06 PM	Since we're dealing with magic in a fantasy world, why is it not believable that an arrow could gain perception and make minor course corrections to account for variations in wind while in flight? It would be similar to a modern day real life ICBM. This would be pretty much how I would look at it, for a Keen Arrow. The guidance systems for an ICBM aren't in the launcer, but in the missile. So too should it be the case for a Keen Arrow: the bow launches the arrow, and the arrow does the damage. A Keen Arrow could theroetically mean that the arrow somehow alters its course slightly to try and hit a vulnerable spot, thus the greater chance for a critical hit. In reality, it's not the arrow that makes it possible to do more damage, it's the bow. Tighter string, finer compound system that removes a lot of the variables that lead to inconsistancies between shots, etc etc. The arrow doesn't try harder to hit a critical spot, the bow has to be fashioned better and worked more skillfully to hit a critical spot. Precision aiming to achieve a critical hit is a function of the bow, not of the arrow, dispite the fact that the arrow is what's doing the damage. The arrow will do damage wherever it strikes. The bow makes it strike the femoral artery for extra damage, above what the arrow would normally have caused. I'm not so sure I agree with this, at least not entirely. It's true that a taughter bow with a greater pull will enable the archer to fire an arrow with greater force and velocity than an inferior bow, but the arrow itself does have something to do with the actual penetration of the target. You can have two identical bows with two different types of arrows (lets say a standard practice arrow vs. a hunting arrow). The hunting arrow is going to have a better chance of causing a greater wound than the slim, non-descript practice arrow. Also, in D&D terms, these "better bows" already exist...they're called "masterwork" and "mighty" bows. These would give the archer a better chance to hit and more damage to the shot, as would things like sights and/or stabilizers for accuracy, and a tighter string and/or a compound bow for damage/penetration, in "real life". Heck, these things might already be incorperated into what a masterwork or mighty bow already is...who knows? So anyhow, my stance remains that an arrow can be Keen, but not a bow. Ultimately, though, it's up to the DM to decide. "Balance-wise", I don't think it's really a big deal, but for me I just like it this way.
EvilVegan 05-05-07, 04:27 PM	Forget RAW. Rename it "Precise" and it works on any weapon. TADA!
mvincent 05-05-07, 06:09 PM	There is magic available to make an item aware; and even specific things to make weapons intelligent enough to aid in an attack.Again: the authors were using the term "keen" here as a synonym for "sharp". This is why "Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen".
Frugal 05-05-07, 08:13 PM	Howso? If the flaming ability did not say that bows bestowed the ability on it's arrows, I would not argue that the rules allowed such, nor would I be using the argument that "it's really the bow that's doing the damage". As mentioned, there's nothing wrong with allowing a keen bow if you desire, or deciding that the keen ability should actually have the missing "bows bestow the ability on it's arrows" text. It is just that (based on the previously presented facts) the "it's really the bow that's doing the damage" argument is simply not a valid, logical argument. Who's made that argument? All I've seen is the repeated claims that casting keen edge or making a bow keen makes the bow sharper. All I'm saying is there's a clear precedence for making magical bows that impart the enhancement on the ammunition fired. I think it's pretty obvious from the OP's original post that's what he's meaning and to argue that you're just making the bow sharp is just being asinine and avoiding the main issue. Yes, RAW it's not stated, but it is consistent with other ranged enhancements and doesn't present a balance issue.
mvincent 05-05-07, 09:18 PM	Who's made that argument?It is actually at the crux of the argument*. See this thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3446539)(mentioned earlier) for a clearer elaboration on the issue. * Edit: perhaps not your argument, but you jumped into the middle of a discussion that you may have missed some fine points on. All I'm saying is there's a clear precedence for making magical bows that impart the enhancement on the ammunition fired.Yes, there is. And in all cases, there is a phrase that says so. It is this very precedence that works against the idea of RAW implicitly allowing keen bows. As mentioned (several times) I'm fine with the idea of keen bows, I'm just trying to show how this precedence (and RAW) work. meaning and to argue that you're just making the bow sharp is just being asinine and avoiding the main issue.I believe your statement is not only rude, it betrays the fact that you do not actually understand what I am trying to illuminate. I provided links on more thorough discussions on this matter. Feel free to read them if you desire. While I normally enjoy rules discussions as purely logical exercises, I don't have a real vested interest in whether everyone understands it or not.
Toki_Wartooth 05-05-07, 09:24 PM	Who's made that argument?How in the lower planes are some of you not getting this?!! Just because you can't understand what is going on doesn't mean someone is asinine. If anything, it makes it clear that you are asinine. Yes, RAW it's not stated, but it is consistent with other ranged enhancements and doesn't present a balance issue.Then I think you are actually in agreement with what mvincent has been saying.
mvincent 05-05-07, 09:31 PM	Then I think you are actually in agreement with what mvincent has been saying.Yes, certainly. I do agree that it is not what RAW says, but it is consistent with other ranged enhancements and doesn't present a balance issue. I believe I've made this clear several times. I have merely been discussing RAW.
Frugal 05-05-07, 10:41 PM	Sigh, the enworld link doesn't provide any further illumination. All I see is a group of people who apparently want to overly read into the RAW to argue that the strict reading of keen edge means that you are making a bow sharper. Now as I see it, we're also ignoring some other rules readings then. For starters, keen edge specifically can be cast on ammunition but ammunition has no damage type or crit range (it's the weapon that has that), therefore keen edge can't be cast on an arrow at all (by RAW). I am perfectly willing to agree that RAW does not state that it would allow a bow to be made keen and to apply that to it's ammunition. I think the bigger question is should keen and keen edge be allowed to apply to a bow (or other ranged weapon which deals piercing damage) or would it be a workable house rule? Let's consider that there is a precedence for other enhancements on a ranged weapon applying the effect to the ammunition (I mention this just to point out that other cases exist for things working this way, not to suggest that keen works that way RAW, as it doesn't have the provision that it does, unlike the other enhancements). Bows and crossbows do piercing damage, so we're not extending keen to a damage type it doesn't normally cover. The Improved Critical feat works with bows and crossbows so that suggests there isn't a balance issue (given that the spell or enhancement produces the identical effect) Keen edge only explicitly prohibits it from being cast on natural weapons With all this in mind, I don't think it's out of line to suggest that it be allowed to work. Keen or keen edge cast on a bow would allow that bow to impart the keen effect on all it's arrows. I don't think this is unbalanced (and if there is an actual balance argument other than semantics argument, I'd love to hear it), for keen edge you have the option of enchanting a number of arrows and distributing them or you can cast it on a single bow and all arrows shot from that bow (while the duration lasts) are keen.
mvincent 05-05-07, 11:34 PM	I am perfectly willing to agree that RAW does not state that it would allow a bow to be made keen and to apply that to it's ammunition. Then we are in agreement I think the bigger question is should keen and keen edge be allowed to apply to a bow (or other ranged weapon which deals piercing damage) or would it be a workable house rule?That doesn't seem like a big question, as most of us seem to agree that such would certainly be a reasonable and balanced house rule. For that matter, having it apply to weapons other than slashing or piercing ones would seem reasonable too. At least, I haven't seen anyone debate otherwise yet. Any volunteers to debate that side?
EvilVegan 05-06-07, 10:01 AM	Only slashing and piercing weapons should be allowed to be keen. Are you going to use a sharpening stone on a mace? No. A morning star maybe, but never a mace. Also I want to point out that bludgeoning weapons on average have the lowest crit multiplier, so putting a keen enchantment on them isn't as beneficial as putting it on a scythe or a pick (for instance). The exception is the lone warhammer (x3). So, other than "it isn't as beneficial" I really can't think of a balance issue with allowing keen bludgeoning weapons. The don't deal more damage and the DR associated with bludgeoning isn't any more common than other DRs. The one thing that comes to mind with DR/bludgeoning is skeletons, and they're immune to crits. Side note: Only Bludgeoning weapons should be allowed to be merciful. Please stab me gently! No.
psiphre 05-07-07, 12:14 PM	That doesn't seem like a big question, as most of us seem to agree that such would certainly be a reasonable and balanced house rule. I still assert that you're going too far with your interpretation of the RAW. bows are piercing weapons; keen edge may be cast on a single piercing weapon. why does it have to be a house rule that keen edge is able to target bows?
Frugal 05-07-07, 12:23 PM	I still assert that you're going too far with your interpretation of the RAW. bows are piercing weapons; keen edge may be cast on a single piercing weapon. why does it have to be a house rule that keen edge is able to target bows? I think the issue is that it's neither explicitly prohibited nor is it explicitly allowed. Look at the weapon enhancements that explicitly say that the ranged weapon imparts the enhancement on any ammunition fired. Now in terms of RAW, in D&D terms it is the b ow that deals the damage so regardless of common sense, "sharpening" a bow would give the effect in question. RAW an arrow does no damage and has no crit range so applying keen edge to it would have no effect.
mvincent 05-07-07, 12:24 PM	I still assert that you're going too far with your interpretation of the RAW.Yes. I know you do. I think I'm done with you though.