Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tiercel 11-18-04, 08:16 PM	There are rules for coup de grace, but what about the situation where the Bad Guy seizes your NPC (or even PC) buddy and overpowers him, knife in hand, facing you with your buddy pinned. Bad Guy: Alright, nobody moves or he gets it. PC #1: Or he gets what? A single attack you have readied with that dagger? At -4? PC #2: Dude, you don't even get any bonus to hit him because he's pinned. PC #3: It doesn't even matter if you're a rogue, 'cos he doesn't lose his Dex to you just 'cos he's pinned. PC #1: Listen, you can't coup de grace him, he's only pinned, not helpless, he's looking at, what, maybe d4+3 damage there, and thats assuming you can even hit. PC #3: And if you do, then we'll just waltz right over to you and if you're stupid enough to keep him in a pin, you'll lose your Dex bonus against us 'cos you're in a grapple... PC #2: Dude! Expert Tactician! PC #3: ...and sneak attack... Bad Guy: ... Okay, big time metagaming but you get the point. There is no real game mechanic to cover this sort of maneuver, as far as I can tell - which seems more than a little wrong. Allowing a coup de grace on a pin as a house rule seems more than a little harsh. Does anyone have an interpretation of RAW or a reasonable house rule which would allow this tactic to exist against anyone besides a level 1 commoner (or someone who is, in fact, already helpless)?
Tsuul 11-18-04, 09:24 PM	This move is better done to commoners with only 1 hit die of hit points where the standard action could very well kill the victim. People with more hit dice (PC types and spunky NPCs usualy wiggle out after a kick or sharp blow). Poison on the blade (make it obvious) might put the PCs in more of a predicament. Didn't you ever notice that the good guys in the movies always seem to get out of this kind of situation with relative ease if it is a "main or supporting" character in the position of the victim? Same deal here.
Neofish 11-18-04, 09:33 PM	No, if a victim gets a knife to the throat, just treat them as helpless.
Tony Vargas 11-18-04, 10:17 PM	One way to handle this is to resolve the attack, first. That is, you snag the person, attack them with the dagger, and kill or drop them. If that resolves successfully, you can decide to 'have the knife at thier throat,' instead and can go through with killing them later, at whim, even if someone Disintegrates you or something... Obviously, there needs to be a way of saving the person, too - a clever distrcation (RP'd or Bluff-vs-sense motive) or by complying to the initial demand so you have to 'kill' the person again to re-set the situation or something...
Kyaran 11-18-04, 10:21 PM	I've often pondered a house-rule wherein a target that is surprised or flat-footed, successfully grappled, and successfully pinned is considered to be helpless or CDG-able with regard to the grappler. There's a little bit of rules twisting there, as this would normally only be possible in one round with a +6 or higher BAB and sometimes not even then. Let's see... this feels like it needs a real write-up: This would be a block to insert in the Starting a Grapple section of the PHB on page 156 after step 4. (In my world.) Special: Manhandle. Before making the melee touch attack to grab your target, you may announce your intent to manhandle your opponent. You must fulfill the following criteria to use this option: • Your target must be surprised, helpless, or flat-footed due to not having acted in initiative yet. • You must be wielding a piercing or slashing weapon that is one-handed or lighter (natural weapons count as light weapons) or using an unarmed attack with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. • You must have a free hand. When making the hold and manhandle checks, you take no penalty for using a light weapon, and you take a -4 penalty for using a one-handed weapon. If you succeed on your grab and hold checks, you may make an additional grapple check as a free action to manhandle your opponent. If you succeed, you have pinned your target and are visibly threatening its life. (You may have a dagger or sword to the target's throat, are prepared to break its neck, etc.) If you fail this check, you are merely grappling. You may attempt additional manhandle checks if you have remaining iterative attacks; otherwise, your turn is over. If you have manhandled your target, you are allowed no other actions for the round but speaking, and are considered to have a readied action to finish delivering a coup de grace. You may specify the conditions under which you will take this action. On subsequent rounds, you may move the grapple up to half your speed unless the manhandled opponent resists. Any attack against you that is unexpected requires a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage dealt) to avoid releasing your opponent unharmed, even if this is the trigger for your readied action. If the manhandled opponent struggles on their turn (i.e. uses the Break Another's Pin grapple action, or resists your movement of the grapple), they do so with a -4 penalty on their roll, but the attempt is resolved before you are allowed to take your readied action. If they break the pin, they are no longer grappled at all. If they escape, they provoke an attack of opportunity for leaving your square. I know the rules don't quite support this, but if you've got some guy in an armlock and a knife to his throat, it's gonna be hard to avoid doing serious damage there. It's easy in a VP/WP system, you just go straight to WP. In an HP system, I would handle it like a CDG. This process is a little rules heavy, but it also provides some good tension and typical escape scenarios, and can't come up all that often, can it? And remember... if the NPCs can do it, so can the PCs! ;)
Annaylli 11-18-04, 10:32 PM	Within the rules the whole don't move or he gets it scenario only works in limited ways. The best being situations where the bad guy moved up to a helpless character and starts the full round action for CdG in one round. Then readies to finish it in the next round with the threat. Or has an extremely low hit point hostage (negative if possible) or a very damaging attack. He doesn't even need to grapple - just a readied action or a guaranteed AoO has the same effect.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 11-18-04, 10:55 PM	My group personally uses common sense in discreet situations where the rules seem awkward or ambiguous. In this situation, I believe the coup de grace would apply. If you wanna apply some houserule to make it a little fair for the PC, you could make a fort save dc: 15 + damage from attack or die, it'd just count as an automatic critical, dropped to -1 and bleeding out (slit throat effect), etc...otherwise you could just apply that a pinned character is considered helpless...really in the end, the DMs decision is final and if you want to kill of the PC or if the DM wants to kill of the PC he can and the PC and others have little say in it aside from walking out of the room.
Wil Harvey 11-18-04, 10:56 PM	This is one of those situations where you just have to ignore the rules for the sake of an enjoyable game. If it's an NPC your BBEG is threatening to kill, I don't care how many hit points he has, if the PCs do whatever they were not supposed to do, that NPC is dying with one swift cut, and they are going to face some serious social repercussions when word gets out of their reckless nature. If it's a PC you want to use as the target, fudge some scare into 'em. When the climactic moment comes, make a couple rolls behind the screen, and then give them a description like, "A slow smile creeps across Rezeder's face as you tell him the location of the final schema. That smile slowly fades, though, and the eyes that were filled with reserved joy a second ago are now filled with icy hate. Without warning, Rezeder starts to slice Coryell's throat. Before he can, though, Coryell slides out of Rezeder's grasp, escaping from his clutches with only a small wound on his shoulder." Of course, the rolls were bogus. But it makes it seem like the PC's abilities had something to do with what happened. From there, the BBEG could dramatically escape, or the final battle with the BBEG could ensue, with Coryell down a couple hit points. That's how I'd do it.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 11-18-04, 11:24 PM	I've been gaming for a long time & I've had this situation arise while DMing and as a PC. First off, a PC who is held/pinned or otherwise comprimised with a blade to their throat is in a bad, bad situation. At most the PC should get a single chance to break free of the grapple of whatever. Failure meaning the baddie with the knife has just slit their throat from ear to ear. No -4 attack roll, no 1d4 damage, no "i have 100hps & can't be killed with one swipe of a knife". This is where a big misunderstanding of the hit point system comes into play. When your 1st level fighter has 12hps, and takes 10 points of damage from a orc spear, it's assumed the spear hit home, stabbing deeply into the fighter. Now, take that same fighter and make him 10th level with 125hps. That same orc hits him for 10 points of damage with a spear. What now? Well, the fighter didn't suddenly become superman, and the orc didn't grow weaker. You have to imagine the higher HP total as a representation of your fighter becoming more skillful at combat, avoiding blows, shrugging off lesser hits, and generally protecting his vitals better. So, that spear hit which almost killed the fighter at first level with 10pts of damage stabbed into his midsection, while that same hit to the 10th level fighter was a graze against the fighters shoulder, drawing blood, but nothing more than a surface wound. Imagination people..... describing this also adds a world of flavor to otherwise boring combat. Sorry about the rant :rant: anyway, the PC/NPC gets a single chance to break free as per the rules, if they fail to escape, well... coup de grace, PC is dropped to -1hp and dropping, etc. That's up to the DM, as are all the rules. Don't let PC "metagaming" (i hate that term) dictate to you the DM what happens. They might know the assassin only has a +1 dagger that deals 1d4+1, but to their characters... it can kill their friend with a slip of the wrist.
dedric 11-18-04, 11:29 PM	If you look in the SRD you will see that: A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. So it is not a stretch at all for the DM to rule that a character with a knife to the throat is at the mercy of the knife wielder. That is the way I would rule it at least. Dedric
Kyaran 11-18-04, 11:36 PM	If you look in the SRD you will see that:A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.Well. Holy smoke. That actually does look like it applies just fine. I leave my previous work (because it was a lot of typing), but I change my answer to this one. :)
Tsuul 11-18-04, 11:53 PM	But you still have that full round CDG action to do. *puts on helmet*
Neofish 11-19-04, 01:23 AM	You'll need this to *hands Tsuul a gorget*
Someone 11-19-04, 01:36 AM	Well, I'd simply state that a slit throat is a slit throat, just as a dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye. It doesn't really matter what the mechanic is, as the helpless one is subject to just about anything. And in most cases, a slit throat is quite fatal.
Ipsissimus 11-19-04, 02:28 AM	I agree with Wil Harvey, when it becomes more situation and normal combat rules no longer apply to a delicate time like this. Of course there is always a chance that the victim may not die but a knife to the throat for anyone is quite fatal. We've treated it as an automatic critical hit with max damage rolled, plus there is a save for be dropped to -1 as mentioned earlier. It's very logical and fair. It's no longer about hps but having your tenders exposed. The Rock certainly has more hps than say Chris Rock, but put a knife to their throats and all of a sudden they are both on the same level. Really, it's your call.
Mediator 11-19-04, 02:55 AM	For me it is a rather simple ruling: It is a coup de grace, due to the circumstances it can be delivered by a readied action (contrary to the rules which only allow standard actions to be readied). The victim has the chance to break free via a grapple check or an escape artist check (depending on the situation I would apply a -2 to -4, maybe even -6 penalty on the victim also depending if the bad guy also readied the coup the grace against attempts to break free or only against approaching wannabe helpers).
Naeron 11-19-04, 05:30 AM	There are rules for coup de grace, but what about the situation where the Bad Guy seizes your NPC (or even PC) buddy and overpowers him, knife in hand, facing you with your buddy pinned. Bad Guy: Alright, nobody moves or he gets it.<snip> Doesn't work that well anyway, most PC's I've encountered as a player or DM would just reply "Do it then, and there'll be no quarter if you do." And slitting someones throat is not quite as easy as the films make it out to be unless the target is unaware. D&D is probably correct in its approach in requiring someone to be at your mercy for the CDG rules to apply.
kjenks 11-19-04, 06:44 AM	I prefer to follow the rules exactly here. No, the BBEG can't do a coup de grace because the victim isn't helpless. But everybody knows how this works, so no BBEG would ever try this tactic. Think about Real Life. In this situation, nobody is going to threaten another human with a sewing needle. It just wouldn't do enough damage to make it a credible threat. Now think about D&D. In this situation, nobody is going to threaten another human with a dagger. It just wouldn't do enough damage to make it a credible threat. If you want your BBEG to make a credible death threat, have him hang the victim over a cliff and threaten to let go. Or have him hang a 16-ton block over the victim's head and threaten to cut the rope leading to a block and tackle. Or have him threaten to command an ogre with a greatclub to coup-de-grace the helpless victim. These are credible threats. A dagger to the throat? Not in this universe. The heroes will laugh at you. Other villains will roll their eyes and say, "Come on, dude, get a real deathtrap!"
Mirtek 11-19-04, 06:58 AM	The problem with rules like the one from Kyaran is: They're very frustating for the PCs and guarantee TPKs against more powerfull monsters. That's if the DM is consequent and uses the options he himself created. Since, if a dragon can simply grap the 20th level fighter and CdG him, why should he even bother with ordinary attacks at all?I've been gaming for a long time & I've had this situation arise while DMing and as a PC. First off, a PC who is held/pinned or otherwise comprimised with a blade to their throat is in a bad, bad situation. At most the PC should get a single chance to break free of the grapple of whatever. Failure meaning the baddie with the knife has just slit their throat from ear to ear. No -4 attack roll, no 1d4 damage, no "i have 100hps & can't be killed with one swipe of a knife". You're aware that most high level critters are able to basically to that every single time, as their grapple bonus far exceeds that of the PCs? Why should they do anything else but this kind of knife to the throat in a fight?
Nom 11-19-04, 07:39 AM	Basically, it's very difficult to get a free CDG on a hero unless they voluntarily declare themselves helpless. BBEG grapples PC and says "surrender or I'll kill him". PC in question decides he doesn't like this and fights back. PC is not helpless, so no CDG. If you want to pull the "surrender or I'll kill him" trick, you need to pick a target that won't fight back, is too weak to fight back, or use an attack that is a serious threat. Even if you only have a dagger, a low level commoner might be Intimidated enough to count as helpless. It is a little odd that only Rogues know enough about sneak attack to gain bonus damage (except CDG), but that's how it is. A fighter can threaten death to a commoner by waving a greatsword around, pin or not (ready action: "attack the commoner if they don't surrender or she tries to run"). A rogue can do the same with a well placed sneak attack. A wizard? The PC rogue whispers to the archer "Think you can shoot him? The dagger at her throat may look scary, but if he stabs there it'll just leave a nasty wound."
Xavier_of_Cormyr 11-19-04, 10:05 AM	Too many people are playing RULES LAWYER in here. I'm not saying that in every encounter an opponent/monster will grapple a PC, then coup de grace them for an instant kill. Being grappled is IMO, very different from being held prone with a dagger to one's neck! The "grapple" has already been resolved at this point! The attacker is standing behind the victim holding a blade against their neck- end of story. Here's where the lost art of role playing comes into play. As for the sewing needle comment, c'mon now. I know it's a fantasy game, but geez, a dagger against the throat could kill anyone I know. Be realistic. If your PC or a NPC get's caught up in this situation, they should be able to make a last ditch effort to escape, otherwise it's time to sweet talk the guy with the dagger.
Kursk 11-19-04, 10:06 AM	Handle the same way a SWAT team does. Sharp shooter with the cross bow. The bolt goes about 200 ft/sec. From 50 ft away that's 1/4 sec to impact on the guy who's holding the knife... Too fast to be able to the hostage... :ayyyy!:
Mediator 11-19-04, 10:42 AM	Think about Real Life. In this situation, nobody is going to threaten another human with a sewing needle. It just wouldn't do enough damage to make it a credible threat. But just because they don't have the holy, flaming burst, keen sewing needle +5, even the holy handgrenade of Antiocha is history and never can be found again; fortunately no dangerous rabbits around anymore....
Naeron 11-19-04, 10:43 AM	As for the sewing needle comment, c'mon now. I know it's a fantasy game, but geez, a dagger against the throat could kill anyone I know. Be realistic. If your PC or a NPC get's caught up in this situation, they should be able to make a last ditch effort to escape, otherwise it's time to sweet talk the guy with the dagger. But by the game definitions these people are low level NPC's, who would probably be killed by a dagger anyway (and its not that sure a method against an opponent who doesn't freeze up with fear - which is handled by them being at the persons mercy by the rules). Once the hostage is of a high enough level not to worry about a normal dagger attack they get to what we only see in films, where the hero escapes from the dagger to the throat/gun in the back.
arbanafal 11-19-04, 10:54 AM	Try looking at the problem from a different angle. Who (!) is holding the knife to your (N)PC's throat. If your PC's have handled dragons, beholders and lich-kings and they are still in time for lunch today...don't think that they'll be impressed by some common street thug who should have picked a better target. I don't think that any villian with an intelligence high enough to wield a dagger would consider the knife-to-the-throat-maneuver in the face of heavilly armed and well-trained villiankillers-for-hire. Would the villain still consider the tactic, he would be better of having a loved one (without a black belt in kick ass) under knife threat On the other hand.. Variations on the tactic can be used. Just substitute the dagger for the following in case of higher level PC's -poison (allready mentioned in a earlier post) -finger of death -destruction -power word: kill (handy if your players know that death knight trick in advance) -random other instant/certain death spell -slaying arrows (I love those) -Big Bubba the Ogre wielding his oversized gargantuan dire dagger (hey, give it a try) -let a trained assasin do the dagger to throat strategy (in case of wealthy/influential villian) -hold a dagger to the rogue's favorite holy lawful dagger +5 of speed (that will put the fear of Pelor into them) -oh!oh! and lets not forget the thing players hate most: level drain! Point is: try to think heroic fantasy and the right situation will come up. Puny daggers don't scare arbanafal, self-proclaimed ogre-mage-demigod. And neither do they scare other would be heroes. If it did, they are better of serving drinks in the bars they frequent and let others rescue the damsels in distress ;)
Bartleby_GoC 11-19-04, 12:56 PM	Had this situation occur in my last game session. The monk(4), cleric(4), and wizard(5) were dealing with a growing ambush. They were on a ship that had seemed abandoned until crewmen started boiling out of the hold. The monk had investigated two doors that led below deck. When the cleric arrived to heal a few wounds, she put her back to one fo these doors. No one was looking inthe right direction and a pirate (level 2 rogue) made a grapple check, held a knife to the cleric's throat, and demanded their surrender. Thanks to the initiative rolls here's what happened: The monk knocks out the guy near him and steps toward the pirate. The wizard casts colorspray to get some room to maneuver. The cleric struggles and distracts the pirate who uses his move to punch her in the kidney (Fort save 10 or stunned, she rolls a 7). Next turn, monk throws his hands to the sides and says, "I can't drop my wepaons, I fight unarmed." (bluff roll, monk gets a 17, pirate gets a 15) The wizard casts magic missile, nailing the pirate with enough damage to knock him down. Really, it was a good bit of teamwork. Without the cleric struggling, the pirate would have slit her throat (yes, a lethal CdG) when the other two didn't immediately surrender. The monk's statement was enough to delay the pirate's action to his initiative instead of his readied action. Wizard uses the opening for a well placed spell. Sure I twisted the rules a bit, but so what? It was a great scene, there was real tension, and the players loved it. Ultimately, they were overwhelmed, but fromthe start, the pirates were taking prisoners. Six PCs vs 20 lvl 1 rogues, warriors, and fighters, 20 lvl 2 of same classes, and 10 level 3 rogues and fighters, plus a lvl 5 cleric and a lvl 5 sorcerer. All the PCs survived (though in a variety of physical condition from simply captured to stabilized below 0) while they took down 25 pirates, 10 of whom died outright (6 to the fighter, 4 to a fireball). Session ended when the last one was captured. Bartleby
Kyaran 11-19-04, 01:41 PM	The problem with rules like the one from Kyaran is: They're very frustating for the PCs and guarantee TPKs against more powerfull monsters.Not so. It's not a simple grapple check = death equation. My original suggestion requires the target to be flat-footed or surprised, so you can't do it in combat; only to start it (or avoid it). And again, the PCs can do it too. Also, I revised my suggestion to agree with dedric's citing of core rules. Since the rules for CDG state "or otherwise at your mercy" it's up the to DM to adjudicate whether the situation warrants allowing this. My write-up really boils down to some suggestions on how to handle specifics, at this point.
spasheridan 11-19-04, 02:02 PM	THe whole concept of holding someone helpless and threatening them with a knife to the throat flies in the face of the game mechanics. There are a million examples of how HP breaks the game. Let's examine a few: Fall an infinite amount of distance, maximum damage is 20d6 (70 pts). This should crus you and break limbs. 15th level PC's will stand up and walk away. Swimming in Acid / Lava: max damage, again, is 20d6. You can take a quick dip in it if you're a 20th level barbarian. No scars, no burns, you're fine. Poison: Where is the save or die poison? Where is the 2 foot watersnake that will kill ANYONE bitten, no matter what happens? IRL 5% of the victims don't recover, they all die. Healing: a 1st level commoner will have, at most, 6 HP. THe most damage they can take is 15 pts. With bedrest they will heal in 7 days to full health. How long do broken bones take to heal? I think arms stay in casts for a month usually. SO, we need to realize that the game world runs by differant rules than the real world. Once we accept that fact we can get beyond the cries of "Well, since things work this way in the real world they should work that way in game world". NO! That just isn't so. In the real world you die if you swim in lava, you die if you fall far enough, and you take longer than a week to heal to full health. SO, back to game mechanics. There are 2 kinds of people you can threaten with a knife to the throat. 1) Low level / low HP (n)PC. The knife to the throat is a real threat, the knife can kill them. I'm fine with a mechanic that allows a held CDG attempt. Held as in delayed, no held as in grappled. This person has low HP. Remember, all of your HP are not your body, only the last 11 (that's from 1 to -10) represent any physical effect. The rest of your HP are luck, scratches and bruises. SO, say this person has 6 HP and the guy with the knife cuts him and hits for 10. Boom, your down to -4, your bleeding out. 2) HIgh level / high HP (N)PC. THe knife to the throat is not a real threat to this person. Since this person has high HP the knife to the throat will not hurt him. The HP represent luck, tacitcs, evasion. The knifer starts to cut, rolls damage, and brings this guy down to 45 HP from 55. No blood is drawn, the guy on the ground manages to roll away or push the knife back. He can struggle like this for a little while until he's out of tricks and can't fight back. Then the knife draw blood and the throat is cut. THat's the way it works. HP are an accumulation of things, most of them not being physical, and they represent a creatures ability to avoid damage, not soak it. a high HP creature is very tough (able to shrug off most wounds) and knows how to get out of tricky situations. eventually a high HP creature wont be able to doge the killing blow and will die, but they will dodge the first few attacks (even if it's a knife to the throat). If you want to do something else, like make all attacks potentially fatal, play another game. It's just not possible to massage the mechanics this way in D&D.
FitzNighteyes 11-19-04, 02:13 PM	Not so. It's not a simple grapple check = death equation. My original suggestion requires the target to be flat-footed or surprised, so you can't do it in combat; only to start it (or avoid it). And again, the PCs can do it too.Your rules looked pretty good. I may steal them. ;) The problem is, not everyone is saying that it requires flat-footed to get into this situation. IMO, it should be very hard to end up in this situation if you are not flat-footed. Personally, if I was so inclined to come up with some "knife to the throat rules", I would have it be a readied CdG (breaks the normal rules), but require 3-4 consecutive rounds of successful pins first. That makes it hard to succeed for most villians against normal "heroes" in a standup fight, but easier to establish when it's a lvl 1 helpless damsel in distress that was pinned before the heroes even appeared. And for creatures that can easily pin even higher level players (collosal dragons, etc), I actually have no problem with them demanding surrender 'or the wizard gets it' if they just spent 3 rounds establishing the kill position while the rest of the party wails on it.
Some_call_me_Tim 11-19-04, 02:16 PM	For me it is a rather simple ruling: It is a coup de grace, due to the circumstances it can be delivered by a readied action (contrary to the rules which only allow standard actions to be readied). Yes, but remember Start a Full-Round Action is only a standard action. So, you can ready to start a coup d' grace as a standard action. Which you need to complete in the following round by using another standard action.
Tsuul 11-19-04, 02:18 PM	My original suggestion requires the target to be flat-footed or... Cast grease. Force a balance check and make someone flat-footed. Not many have the 5 ranks it takes to become immune.
Bartleby_GoC 11-19-04, 02:20 PM	It's just not possible to massage the mechanics this way in D&D. Actually, if you take a moment to read the preceding posts, you'll see that it is. The whole idea of a CdG attack, which IS inthe RAW, is that sometime death just happens. Now, the RAW is an interesting thing. See, even the creators of D&D state the books are a collection of guidelines. Rule debates are good because they stimulate clarifications that might never otherwise come to light. STating we should all quitely comply to the rules as if they were some sort of holy book is simply silliness. No two games run the same way. No two interpritations are identical. The books were written by humans, so by definition, they contain errors and passages that are not nearly as clear as we'd like them to be. (take a whack at pricing custom magic items, the book is woefully vague in that area) Sorry, that's just the way it is. If you don't want to use a house rule, that's cool. You don't have to. We, however, also have the right to create and use them. This set of forums is for the exchange of creative ideas and the clarification and discussion of the guidelines fo the game. If you aren't interested in that sort of thing, we're ok with it. You don't have to be here. There's nothing wrong with being fanatical about the rules. Fanatics have their place, usually at the bottom of a lake or hole. Bartleby
Tsuul 11-19-04, 02:23 PM	Is there an option to take a -10 on grapple to not be considered grappled yourself? grapple at -10, Pin at -10, start CDG, ready acton to finish the CDG + banter "let me live or he gets it". 3-4 rounds to pull off. Time better spent running IMHO.
Kyaran 11-19-04, 02:31 PM	Cast grease. Force a balance check and make someone flat-footed. Not many have the 5 ranks it takes to become immune.I guess if you want to do that to your PCs... Or let them get away with it... :P Maybe it would be better worded if I said "surprised, helpless, or flat-footed due to not having acted in initiative yet." That's the concept I was attempting to convey. (Wow. Writing unambiguous rules is pretty hard. ;))
Mind Rogue 11-19-04, 02:33 PM	Lets try a few things here... You can CdG a helpless opponent. A helpless opponent includes one who is at your mercy. A pinned opponent is at your mercy. Now lets stretch a few rules here. Under improved grab special ability, it says that you can such a creature can take a -20 penalty on its grapple checks to not be considered grappled. It would not be unreasonable to allow normal people to do that too. Since most villians typically grab the helpless 1st level commoners, and such people are usually to scared to fight back, the villian himself is not considered grappled even though he has one of the PC's girlfriends pinned to his chest. Even though he has her pinned, he himself is not considered grappled and pinned, and thus he can use a weapon against her, stereotypically a dagger. He readies an action to start a coup de grace if any of the PCs do anything. If one of the PCs attacks, he still has improved cover from his hostage, so the PC might kill her for the villian. Then they all roll for initiative, then the villian completes his coup de grace, then takes his move action to get away. Also, only one PC has the chance to do something first, unless the rest of them beat him in initiative, and the instigating PC only gets one standard action before the CdG. For example, a rogue, fighter, and cleric have encountered the villian, who has taken a hostage. The rogue gets fed up and takes a shot at the villian, and rolls a 15 for initiative. On initiative count 15, the villian interupts his action to prepare his coup de grace, then the rogue shoots the villian (because of his high attack bonus and improved precise shot feat). However, the villian is an evil cleric and thus makes the concentration check to keep his action. On the next round, the cleric rolls initiative 10 and the fighter 16. Thus the fighter charges at the villian and misses (or maybe he hit the hostage). The villian completes his coup de grace (which doesn't provoke an AoO, that was when he started it last round) and takes any move action. The rogue gets to act again, then finally the cleric.
spasheridan 11-19-04, 02:36 PM	Actually, if you take a moment to read the preceding posts, you'll see that it is. The whole idea of a CdG attack, which IS inthe RAW, is that sometime death just happens. No, the whole idea of a CDG is not to inflict a death attack, it's to inflict an auto-crit. I don't read anything in CDG that it's a death attack. Now, the RAW is an interesting thing. See, even the creators of D&D state the books are a collection of guidelines. Rule debates are good because they stimulate clarifications that might never otherwise come to light. STating we should all quitely comply to the rules as if they were some sort of holy book is simply silliness. No two games run the same way. No two interpritations are identical. The books were written by humans, so by definition, they contain errors and passages that are not nearly as clear as we'd like them to be. (take a whack at pricing custom magic items, the book is woefully vague in that area) Sorry, that's just the way it is. If you don't want to use a house rule, that's cool. You don't have to. We, however, also have the right to create and use them. SO, because I point out the stack of logical flaws in instituting this house rule I am somehow stomping on your right to create house rules? Interesting, I guess debate in your mind is agreement or stomping on your rights. Read my post again for a second. 1) Low level / low HP (n)PC. The knife to the throat is a real threat, the knife can kill them. I'm fine with a mechanic that allows a held CDG attempt. Held as in delayed, no held as in grappled. This person has low HP. Remember, all of your HP are not your body, only the last 11 (that's from 1 to -10) represent any physical effect. The rest of your HP are luck, scratches and bruises. SO, say this person has 6 HP and the guy with the knife cuts him and hits for 10. Boom, your down to -4, your bleeding out. I specifcly agree that a mechanic that allows a held CDG attempt is a valid tactic and that I'm fine with it. I believe this was the major rules discussion. I was pointing out that a held CDG with a knife is only a threat to a low hp creature because of the way HP work. A CDG with a knife against a helpless 20th level figher with 200 HP will NEVER result in the death of the fighter because the fighter, even helpless, can somehow avoid a fatal injury. Is this strange? Yes. Is it as strange as swimming in lava? No. I can definitly imagine someone surving a knife to the throat before I can imagine someone swimming in lava and surviving. This set of forums is for the exchange of creative ideas and the clarification and discussion of the guidelines fo the game. If you aren't interested in that sort of thing, we're ok with it. You don't have to be here. There's nothing wrong with being fanatical about the rules. Fanatics have their place, usually at the bottom of a lake or hole. Bartleby And then the flames begin. How very mature of you Bartleby. So, I post that HP represent something other then physical conditions of your body. I show several examples of how HP contradict real world injury scenarios. I state that because of how differant HP and injury are it is very very difficult to add in an injury system to an HP system. Since DnD is a game based and balanced on an HP system, any attempt to add an injury system through HP damage breaks all of the balance rules. Your response to this is that I should shut up and leave. Let's turn this around then. Since you don't want to discuss things, maybe you don't have to be here. If you wanted to discuss things you would have responded with some easy manner to include an injury system with HP, or examples of how this could be done. But, since you are a fanatic and choose not to discuss rationaly, I guess your place is at the bottom of a hole...
Kyaran 11-19-04, 02:45 PM	No, the whole idea of a CDG is not to inflict a death attack, it's to inflict an auto-crit. I don't read anything in CDG that it's a death attack.Looks pretty clear to me. SRD and PHB both say "You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die." I choose to abstain from comment on the other matters.
spasheridan 11-19-04, 02:48 PM	Looks pretty clear to me. SRD and PHB both say "You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die." I choose to abstain from comment on the other matters. Thanks Kyaran, I didn't notice that rule. I thought the only way a CDG would inflict a save or die event is from a massive damage roll. I guess the modification to my original post is that the high HP character takes the damage, and if they pass their save then no throat is cut.
Edymnion 11-19-04, 03:03 PM	Back on topic... I rule the knife to the throat bit as a CdG as well. When the BBEG puts the knife to somebody's throat, they will typically stop fighting back. If they have stopped resisting, they cannot defend themselves, and are considered helpless. As long as the person with a knife pointed at them isn't fighting back or resisting in any way, they're fair game for a CdG.
Bartleby_GoC 11-19-04, 03:18 PM	These are examples of fanatical statements. They are such because they are stated as absolutes. THe whole concept of holding someone helpless and threatening them with a knife to the throat flies in the face of the game mechanics. SO, we need to realize that the game world runs by differant rules than the real world. Once we accept that fact we can get beyond the cries of "Well, since things work this way in the real world they should work that way in game world". THat's the way it works. If you want to do something else, like make all attacks potentially fatal, play another game. It's just not possible to massage the mechanics this way in D&D. Again, I'm not the one who said: If you want to do something else, like make all attacks potentially fatal, play another game. It's just not possible to massage the mechanics this way in D&D. The suggestions on this thread HAVE massaged the mechanics to realisticly simulate the 'knife to the throat' scenario. I'm sorry you consider this a flame, but to be honest, your post pretty much read "The rules say X, so stop discussing it." I hate that kind of post and feel no remorse responding to them in a less than flattering manner. Bartleby
Xavier_of_Cormyr 11-19-04, 04:06 PM	But by the game definitions these people are low level NPC's, who would probably be killed by a dagger anyway (and its not that sure a method against an opponent who doesn't freeze up with fear - which is handled by them being at the persons mercy by the rules). Once the hostage is of a high enough level not to worry about a normal dagger attack they get to what we only see in films, where the hero escapes from the dagger to the throat/gun in the back. thus, the last ditch effort to let the PC escape. Bottom line is that if you're 1st level or 21st level, having your throat slit will kill you. The 21st level PC just has a better chance of escaping. It's up to the DM to decide wheter it kills the PC outright, or drops them to -1 hp & dying.
Mind Rogue 11-19-04, 04:25 PM	No, the whole idea of a CDG is not to inflict a death attack, it's to inflict an auto-crit. I don't read anything in CDG that it's a death attack. Well, translated from french, coup de grace literally means "blow of mercy." The idea is that you are putting a vanquished friend or foe to the sword to get their suffering overwith, thereby ending their pain caused by their wounds. Additionaly, depending on the culture, you save them the dishonour of being defeated and left to live or die (a terrible insult).
tiluvias99 11-19-04, 04:36 PM	If It was me, I'd just use the vitality/wound point system from Unearthed Arcana. it fixes everything with the hp thing. then you can just treat the dagger attack as a crit, and there's a good chance they'll die.
spasheridan 11-19-04, 05:13 PM	THat's interesting Bartleby. These are examples of fanatical statements. They are such because they are stated as absolutes. THe sky is blue. The sun is hot. Are those also fanatical statements?? Oh wait.. did you make a fanatical statement in your post. These are examples of fanatical statments. That looks like something stated as an absolute.. so you are a fanatic as well?? I guess you like to read only parts of posts. I mean, if you read the whole post and found that it didn't say what you wanted it to say maybe you'd have to discuss things. But since you only read the parts you want then it's easy to toss around labels and insults. If you want to do something else, like make all attacks potentially fatal, play another game. It's just not possible to massage the mechanics this way in D&D. What, exactly, did I say in that line? Hrm let's read it. Make all attacks potentially fatal. THat line is in there, right? I mean, I said you can't massage the rules to make all attacks potential fatal, right? I didn't say you can't make some attacks potentially fatal did I? I mean, the rules have sections in them about causing death by massive damage and apparently rules for save or die from a CDG as well. Those are potentially fatal attacks, so a knife to a throat is only a possible kill, it isn't a definite kill. If you read the entire post from before you'll note that my main arguement was that HP do not represent physical resilancy to damage. HP represent luck and tactics and a slew of other things. It is these other things that are important in the knife to the throat scenario. If a commoner were being held hostage with a knife to the throat then it's not likely that the commoner would know how to escape the situation without winding up dead. A 10th level fighter with 100 HP will KNOW how to deal with this situation. If we allow the CDG attempt on the fighter (something I've already agreed is a reasonable mechanic) and the knife causes say 10 pts of damage and the fighter makes his DC 20 fort save, what has happened? We can either say that the fighter had his throat cut but he isn't going to die from it or we can say that the fighter somehow pulled a last ditch manuver that stopped the knife from hurting him. Let's go back to the OP's question: PC #1: Or he gets what? A single attack you have readied with that dagger? At -4? PC #2: Dude, you don't even get any bonus to hit him because he's pinned. PC #3: It doesn't even matter if you're a rogue, 'cos he doesn't lose his Dex to you just 'cos he's pinned. PC #1: Listen, you can't coup de grace him, he's only pinned, not helpless, he's looking at, what, maybe d4+3 damage there, and thats assuming you can even hit. PC #3: And if you do, then we'll just waltz right over to you and if you're stupid enough to keep him in a pin, you'll lose your Dex bonus against us 'cos you're in a grapple... PC #2: Dude! Expert Tactician! PC #3: ...and sneak attack... Bad Guy: ... There are 2 question to this scenario. Question 1 is about the mechanic for holding a CDG action. I agreed that this is a reasonable tactic. Question 2 was why would anyone be afraid of a knife to the throat. I was posting a comment on when the knife to throat would be a threat and when it wouldn't. Tiercel is trying to determine a way to threaten lethal results from a knife. While we agree that in the real world a knife is lethal, we can't use real world mechanics to run our game.. it's just not possible. The real world doesn't have dragons and wizards, so you need to use the game mechanics. And the game mechanics in question are HP. My point, which you call RAW fanaticism, is that HP are a measure of something other than physicality, that HP are a mechanic to describe dodging blows and deadly effects. Obviuosly the 12 pt sword blow that kills a 1st level fighter is a huge gash that spreads blood everywhere. That same 12 pt blow to a 20th level fighter doesn't even draw a drop of blood, it's a bruise or the 20th level getting winded as he has to hurry a bit to dodge the blow. To bring it all back together, a creature with high HP is not really threatend by a knife to the throat. Not because the high HP creature can't be killed by this, but becaus the high HP creature is LIKELY to figure out some way to avoid the killing blow. BUT, since you only read some of my post Bartleby you didn't bother to think about what I said and instead accused me of fanatacism because... I have no idea. Why did you do that? Because I made statements in my post? I used declarative sentances and they offend your sensability? Because I tried to discuss and aspect of the knife to the throat scenario you didn't want to read about you told m to leave the thread and leave it to you? Tell me again why my sentances offend you in such a way that you had to tell me to leave instead of ignoring them? Better yet, why don't you stick to point of the thread and talk about GAME MECHANICS that can be used in the OP's situation like he asked about.
Mirtek 11-19-04, 06:47 PM	You can CdG a helpless opponent. A helpless opponent includes one who is at your mercy. A pinned opponent is at your mercy. Actually no, since he can fight back on his turn (which a helpless person can't) AFAIK it has been specifically addressed in some FAQ that you can not CdG a pinned opponentBack on topic... I rule the knife to the throat bit as a CdG as well. When the BBEG puts the knife to somebody's throat, they will typically stop fighting back. If they have stopped resisting, they cannot defend themselves, and are considered helpless. As long as the person with a knife pointed at them isn't fighting back or resisting in any way, they're fair game for a CdG. Actually no, that's not what helpless means in D&D. The state of helpless is a fixed rule term, and has a clear defination on the glossary. Merely voluntary stoping resistance does not make you helpless, only if you are unable to resist, even if you wanted to, theny you're helpless. And, just BTW, heroic PCs won't stop resisting just because they have a knife at their throat Edit: Found the FAQ entry, although it's only in the old FAQ, the rules for CdG have not changed with the 3.5 edition. If someone has problems with this, since it's from the old FAQ, he may mail directly to WotC for an up to date answer:I understand that if an opponent is grappled and pinned that opponent is not helpless and therefore not subject to a coup de grace. You are correct, pinned characters are not helpless and are not subject to coup de grace.
spasheridan 11-19-04, 07:29 PM	CDG may be over the top for a guy surprising you with a knife. Maybe a better example would be a rogue who sneaks up behind you and get's his knife in the sneak attack spot and then holds.. the PC suddenly feels a knife near his kidney or next to his throat and the rogue says "freeze or i'll kill you". I would imagine you could keep the knife in the sneak attack "spot" and hold the attack to give the PC a chance to surrender or not. If the PC doesn't give the rogue can still sneak attack THAT attack, even though the PC isn't surprised anymore. I agree though that a CDG from a pin / grapple is overpower for grapple builds.
Mind Rogue 11-19-04, 08:14 PM	I agree though that a CDG from a pin / grapple is overpower for grapple builds. Aside from normally being unable to use a weapon while pinning somebody (and since it doesn't say otherwise, this includes natural weapons and unarmed strikes too). Ordinarily, you would need a second person to coup de grace your victim while you hold it in place. What I suggested involved a -20 penalty on your grapple check (probably nearly impossible to make) so that you are not considered grappled (and thus pinned) and basically requires the victim to hold still to keep the attacker from doing anything. If distracting circumstances arrise, the victim can easily break free, thereby preventing a coup de grace, since she is no longer a viable target for a coup de grace.
Nom 11-19-04, 10:10 PM	Aside from normally being unable to use a weapon while pinning somebody (and since it doesn't say otherwise, this includes natural weapons and unarmed strikes too).This flies in the face of "you can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check", which has specific rules for unarmed strikes (and IUS). You can also "attempt to use your opponent's weapon against him". Actually no, that's not what helpless means in D&D. The state of helpless is a fixed rule term, and has a clear defination on the glossary. Merely voluntary stoping resistance does not make you helpless, only if you are unable to resist, even if you wanted to, theny you're helpless.I have no problem with a target "voluntarily" declaring themselves helpless, in much the same way as you can voluntarily fail saving throws, lower spell resistance, or become 'willing'. Usually, someone would only do this if they believed that the alternative was worse (death of self or loved one). As a house rule, if someone was helpless because of 'don't move or I'll kill you' and then the person attempted to kill them after, I'd require at least an initiative check to succeed in attacking while they were still 'helpless'.
Mind Rogue 11-19-04, 10:28 PM	You can't draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another's grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another's pin while you are pinning an opponent. Although I did miss this other part You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, use your opponent's weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above) So you can still make a grapple check to deal your unarmed strike damage against your opponent your opponent or making a grapple check and then an attack roll to harm her with her own weapon (an incredibly unlikely situation for a hostage). You still cannot use your own weapons against her, which includes your own natural weapons, daggers, or even unarmed strikes used as weapons (you must pick the grapple check option).
CruelDM 11-19-04, 11:16 PM	You dont have to have an opponant pinned or even grappled to put a knife to their throat, only have the advantage of surprise and positioning (a simple touch attack is all thats really needed). So all the grapple and pinned arguments are moot. I will admit a creature could pin or grapple and put a knife to someones throat, and could do so in the game, but its not neccisarily needed. Once a knife is to a creatures throat that creature is at the wielders mercy, even if they struggle, their life is in the hands of their assailant. All "at your mercy" has to mean is that you are in a position to kill should you want to (a knife to the throat should qualify). Once they are "at your mercy" a CDG is possible. CDG is a full round action, if the creature struggles once they are in that precarious position they have until the assailants next action to get away or he gets a CDG on them. CDG does not = instant death (but it could if the save fails). It shouldnt often come up in the game, but when it does it should be a tense life or death predicament. Higher level PCs will always have a higher chance to survive a CDG due to better saves, and fighters will have the best chance of all. There is no reason for a fighter not to fear a dagger or any other weapon, these devices are weapons, weapons kill. To everyone who believes the PCs in their campaigns are not afraid of a dagger or sword because of high hit points, you arent running your games to their full potential. Your players probably dont fear Red Dragons either.
Mirtek 11-20-04, 04:40 AM	What I suggested involved a -20 penalty on your grapple check (probably nearly impossible to make) Actually no, at least not for the majority of gargantuan and larger creatures, who would still win a grapple check against the poor medium-sized PCs with ease :mymy:
Mind Rogue 11-20-04, 11:29 AM	Actually no, at least not for the majority of gargantuan and larger creatures, who would still win a grapple check against the poor medium-sized PCs with ease :mymy: Well, I thought we were talking about ordinary humans taking hostages... But still, even a collosal creature only gets a +16 bonus do to his size, and the other -4 will knock off a good deal of his strength bonus. If you use the table in the MM, a collosal creature has a +32 to strength (+16 bonus) compared to a human. So even a collosal creature only has a +12 bonus over a human. Also, there are not very many collosal creatures, and they should be powerful. However, watching it take the time to grapple, pin, and then coup de grace you is probably the least of your worries, particularly since it would probably rather not provoke the attack of opportunity that could disrupt its concentration. For each size catagory smaller, the creature loses +8 on its grapple checks (4 from size and another 4 from losing 8 strength). Thus a gargantuan creature has a +4 bonus, a huge one has a -4 penalty, and a large creature has a -12 penalty. Since it needs to beat you in two grapple checks, only a gargantuan or large creature has a likelyhood of doing that, and most fighter types probably have a decent chance of beating one of them, particularly since they get a couple chances to break free on their own turn. The huge or smaller creatures generally need to go after wizards or other characters with small base attack and strength bonuses, but such characters are also frail, and probably could be taken out with a full attack or too (particularly by the collosal creature with the extra +32 strength). The other thing is that creatures of gargantuan or large size typically have other ways to quickly eliminate foes that don't take up two or three rounds. Many of them can swallow whole, dragons will snatch you up and drop you from high up, or breath fire on you (and you don't get a save either). Creatures with improved grab usually have the capability of dealing awesome amounts of damage in a grapple. A kraken, for instance, will take the -20 penalty on its grapple check, constrict you for 2d8+12, then lash at your allies with its other arms for another 2d8+12 plus 6*1d6+6, and bite if your allies are too close for another 4d6+6 damage. While it constricts you, you can't do anything, and it damages you and still threatens the area around you. It doesn't pin and coup de grace you until all of your allies are dead or have run away. And by that time, you might have beaten a grapple check and broken free.
El Salvador 11-20-04, 11:32 AM	An interesting point I'd like to bring up here. The main reason to have a 'knife at the throat' situation is to produce dramatics for the PC's. There is a way to come to this goal without coming up with a whole slew of (and i won't comment on ballance, it's your decision) rules about this kind of thing. If the NPC has a crossbow pointed at the pc's head, make him load it, visibly, with a great, rune covered, smoking add any other intimidating special effects you like bolt. That will put in the possibility of getting hit with an arrow that could very likely kill it's target. Remember that magic for one of those cost's 50X less than a normal weapon enhancement. (divide by 50) The same goes with the dagger. Make it very much obviously magical and deadly. This means that you can threaten the PC's in the way this thread was intended without bothering with all those rules. You don't need them. They are interesting, but I probably wouldn't let my players use them.
Someone 11-20-04, 01:00 PM	I don't think the grapple rules are the best approach here. I think it would be better covered under the ready an action rules. That way they could do something similar with a hand crossbow (the classic gun-to-the-head scenario). Yes, I would allow it to be a "quick" C'dG. I know you can't ready a full-round action like C'dG, but by putting the knife to their throat or whatnot, you've already done part of the action. You can have a feat to speed up the process: you don't have to take as long to set up the attack, but the attack still takes the same amount of time. So I figure its a two-part action: one to "ready" the C'dG, another to do the C'dG attack.
Wolf72 11-20-04, 04:08 PM	make it a Fort save ... say DC 15 +dmg dealt maybe full crit dmg too if passed saving throw.
dwarfpaladinmorlock 11-21-04, 08:36 PM	This came up in our game a while back. Here is what we decided. First, it is not that easy to get the drop on someone, as has been mentioned. First and foremost, this can't be used in normal combat, unless someone gets pinned. Second, the attacker has to be next to the subject and still have a standard action left for the round, against a flat-footed opponent (remember, not in normal combat). Third, use the standard action left as a special kind of prepared action. The attacker is treated as holding his prepared action and can do nothing other then talk for the remainder of the 'situation'. If the prepared action goes off then the hostage has his throat slit, and damage is dealt. The 'throat slit' deals damage as if done by a sneak attack of the CHARACTER level. Thus an 11th level fighter who does this, with a dagger, gets d4+str+magic+6d6 worth of damage! This should be an automatic hit. Basically turn the person holding the hostage into the equivilent of a rogue at character level, for damage purposes. Note that they have to notice that the trigger has happened, so someone perhaps using invisibility or such might be able to free the hostage or take other action, without triggering the attack on the hostage.
kjenks 11-22-04, 12:43 AM	Or you could just play it by the rules. The BBEG has the cowering princess by the neck with a dagger to her throat. "Bwah, hah, hah!" he laughs, "Nobody moves, or the princess gets it!" The princess croaks out a few words, "Help! Save me! I'm too young to die!" The barbarian shrugs his shoulders then charges the BBEG. The BBEG uses his readied action. Because he's already grappling with the princess, the BBEG can use the Attack Your Opponent option: Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. So he can make a dagger attack against the princess at -4. The princess gets her full AC (including armor, shield, Dex, dodge, deflection, insight, and other bonuses). If the BBEG hits, he inflicts normal damage, probably 1d4 + Str bonus plus any enhancement bonus on the weapon. That's it. No coup de grace, no Fort save, no automatic hit, no automatic critical, no new rules made up on the spot, no cheating. No kidding. That's how it should play out. Whether or not the princess survives the tiny poke from the BBEG, the barbarian (whose movement triggered the BBEG's readied action) most likely mops the floor with the BBEG. So presumably the BBEG knows this tactic won't work, so he wouldn't even grab the princess in the first place. There are much more credible threats that he could make, like breaking a Staff of Power or some such. This is NOT our world. It's a world of magic and weapons and death. It's a world of dungeons and dragons. Don't try to apply our rules to this fantasy world, especially in the combat system. So what if this messes up a cliche? No big deal. You, the DM, just have to be a little more creative in setting up your "jeopardy" situations.
Kyaran 11-22-04, 01:24 AM	So what if this messes up a cliche? No big deal. You, the DM, just have to be a little more creative in setting up your "jeopardy" situations.Or we can just be creative in defining how to make this situation work. And some of us have decided that "by the rules" includes counting a pinned (at your mercy) person as helpless for the purposes of a CDG, in this situation.
Twoswords 11-22-04, 01:46 AM	*shrug* This is where roleplay comes in. Will you think "the rules state that.." or will you think "My god, hes got my friend and can kill him at a whim" ? Anyone who brings up the rules and how much the max damage or how long a Coup-de-grace takes..think again, really think about how this scene looks. It is your friend/ward/family there, a bad guy holding a knife to the persons throat. Queation here is not about rules, its about how you, at this point, choose to play your character according to their alignment. Nothing about rules. The DM has those covered.
Naeron 11-22-04, 05:23 AM	thus, the last ditch effort to let the PC escape. Bottom line is that if you're 1st level or 21st level, having your throat slit will kill you. The 21st level PC just has a better chance of escaping. It's up to the DM to decide wheter it kills the PC outright, or drops them to -1 hp & dying. Except at 21st level having someone grab you and put a dagger to your throat does not allow them to slit your throat. Thats what being high level means and how hit points work. To slit a 21st level PC's throat they have to be helplesss, even being pinned doesn't leave someone helpless, the would have to stop resisiting.
Tsuul 11-22-04, 12:24 PM	Except at 21st level having someone grab you and put a dagger to your throat does not allow them to slit your throat. Thats what being high level means and how hit points work. Replace the level terms for "main character" in a movie or show and the same thing tends to apply.
El Salvador 11-22-04, 02:41 PM	I agree with you whole heartedly. The best way to make this work from a DM's standpoint is too add the unknown. Ditch the dagger, and give the BBEG a crossbow loaded with a blatantly magic bolt, covered in runes, smoking, etc... Your PC's will know that the arrow should be dangerous, and that single magic arrows can be made extrodinarily deadly for a much smaller price than weapons. (divided by 50, to be exact) They don't know what it will do, and at your option, it could very easily inflict death, or close to it.
BW0222 11-22-04, 06:43 PM	tiercel, Your first problem with the situation is that your bad guy isn't holding a dagger to the person's throat. His opponent isn't helpless, just pinned. Imagine two people in a wresling match, grasping each others hands, stuggling over weapons, and all one person managed to do is bear hug the other. The "pinned" person is merely in an arm lock, held, etc. He isn't releasing the dagger arm and/or allowing it to be placed against his throat. In order to put a dagger against someones throat, you'd either need surprise (a sneak attack), luck (critical hit), or a coup-de-grace. For the later you'd have to knock your opponent unconcious. Thanks, Brett
El Salvador 11-22-04, 11:42 PM	Yes, as someone stated earlier, pc's are just like the hero's in action movies. They always seem to be able to struggle free, or twist so that they don't get hurt. The PC's do the same thing, which is why the only way to do it is to add the unknown and the threat of powerful magic. I havn't seen anything else that doesn't terribly bend the rules. You can't just take a situation and say: Hey, all that good stuff about your AC and hp doesn't matter, because I really wan't to force you into a helpless situation. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS THAN THAT, PEOPLE! Using these instant kill rules *because they are realistic* in an inherently unrealistic game makes no sense. Allowing players to kill oponnents instatnly if they get the jump on them makes the roge's sneak attack ability worthless, as who needs it when you can kill someone outright. Give the NPC a blatantly obvious magic, single use weapon, or come up with a situation where the NPC hold hostage someone who will certianly die from one hit, and who is important to the pc's, and have the NPC ready an action to make an attack. The PC's should be grappled with the knowledge in mind that the game is ballanced so that they have a fair chance of escaping.
Mind Rogue 11-22-04, 11:55 PM	Like make the hostage be a 1st level commoner, who is also of importance to the PCs, and make the villian, or one of the villian's henchman, be a rogue. If anything happens, the rogue gets sneak attack damage on the hostage since she is flat footed, and once you get to third or fifth level rogues, the probability of instant death gets pretty high, even without coup de grace.