"Squeezing" into the same square? Or illegal move? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Squeezing" into the same square? Or illegal move? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mistril
10-24-05, 03:03 PM hello! New member, first post. ^_^ Anyway, here's the question.

My DM has ruled that two allies can voluntarily sqeeze themselves into the same square via the squeezing rules. I am of the opinion that the rule that two creatures (of insufficient size difference) cannot occupy the same square, and that supercedes the squeezing rule. However, I can see that this situation could be argued either way. The DM is always right, so for now, allies can volunarily squeeze into the same square. But, I'll be DM in the future and I'm curious as to what the written rules support. Does anyone have a definitive answer?
tarkin
10-24-05, 04:01 PM The now two creatures in the same space rule is incredible bad rule.

The rule itself is clear and simple.

Yet it does not allow for the following, all of which are official d20 rules, yet do not explictedly state that they over-ride the no two creatures in a single space:

Grapple
Bull Rush
Over-run
Trample
Mounted combat. (You and the horse are in that same square)

Also, if you use the actual rules then:

1) Two side by side horses pulling a 10ft wide cart must first be made 'helpless'.

2) Two people having sex must first be made helpless.

3) When you hug, you become helpless.

4) If you are carrying your kid, both you and them are helpless.

The rule is just plain badly written.

I would use your DM's ruling if I were you.

I personally state that (unless you are using one of the specail rules listed above - grapling, mounted, bull rush, etc.) when you enter someone's space, neither of you may take any combat actions till one of you leaves the square (but the person who's space you are invading still gets the standard AoO on you for entering his square).
Nom
10-24-05, 06:34 PM By PH, two creatures upright and in normal tactical combat cannot occupy the same space (see DMG pg 20 for non-combat situations). However, many DMs have noted that the squeezing rules already provide for combat in a restricted space, and applied these when two non-hostile characters try to occupy the same square. I am reliably informed that DMG II contains more discussion of this.
mistril
10-24-05, 07:04 PM By PH, two creatures upright and in normal tactical combat cannot occupy the same space (see DMG pg 20 for non-combat situations). However, many DMs have noted that the squeezing rules already provide for combat in a restricted space, and applied these when two non-hostile characters try to occupy the same square. I am reliably informed that DMG II contains more discussion of this.

Thank you for that clarification, it amazes me how many people who play dnd think that human beings are roughly a 5ft cube. o.O Well maybe us Americans... hehe. According to the rules, I *think* it is 4 pp can comfortably fit into a 5x5 ft space, and 8 can crowd in. Our DM has a bathroom in his house that is almost exactly 5x5 ft, so we crowded our whole group in there to prove a point. :) It was silly.

And I knew I shoulda bought the DMG II ... *harumph* Thanks for the info, though. ~_^
SALDAR
10-25-05, 11:29 PM Have your DM read the first sentence under Mixing It Up on page 29 of the DMG. The squeezing rules apply only to small openings, tunnels, etc., not to a creature's space based on size. An ogre (10' space because it is Large size) uses the squeezing rules to pass through a 5' diameter tunnel, not to occupy the 10' space of another ogre in order to attack the same opponent.

Also, if you use the actual rules then:

1) Two side by side horses pulling a 10ft wide cart must first be made 'helpless'.

2) Two people having sex must first be made helpless.

3) When you hug, you become helpless.

4) If you are carrying your kid, both you and them are helpless.
I was unaware that these were actual combat situations. Then again, I don't pry into other's personal lives.
Nom
10-25-05, 11:55 PM Have your DM read the first sentence under Mixing It Up on page 29 of the DMG. The squeezing rules apply only to small openings, tunnels, etc., not to a creature's space based on size. An ogre (10' space because it is Large size) uses the squeezing rules to pass through a 5' diameter tunnel, not to occupy the 10' space of another ogre in order to attack the same opponent.However, the penalties the squeezing rules impose on creatures doing the latter are not unreasonable, if you allow it as a house rule.
SALDAR
10-26-05, 09:52 PM I have no problem with this as a house rule. It does eliminate the rule about not ending your movement in an occupied square (PHB pg 148, Ending Your Movement) that affects a couple of other combat aspects beyond the -4 to attacks and AC.

Allowing this would eliminate 5' steps into or out of the space as your movement is hampered by the other creature occupying that space. You cannot take a 5' step when your movement is hampered.

A creaure's space is also used to determine how many opponents can attack it at the same time. Allowing this would let twice as many opponents attack the creature (i.e. doubling the number of attacks against it) while the creature itself does not increase its number of attacks against opponents.
Raven Dark
10-26-05, 10:45 PM I thought that allies could move through each other's squares freely (although they could not stop in them).
Nom
10-26-05, 10:49 PM A creaure's space is also used to determine how many opponents can attack it at the same time. Allowing this would let twice as many opponents attack the creature (i.e. doubling the number of attacks against it) while the creature itself does not increase its number of attacks against opponents.Somewhat. The surrounding creatures all suffer -4 to all attacks while the surrounded creature effectively gains +4 (-4 to target AC). That's a big difference.

That said, a creature is unlikely to face enough opponents in the open to fully surround it even under the normal rules, or at least enough opponents to make a difference. It may make a difference in a narrow corridor or similar very restricted situation, though the squeezing penalties wil make this unattractive.

Note that I'm assuming that sharing is voluntary. To enter the square of a creature who doesn't want you to, you need to grapple, bull rush or overrun (or be at least 3 size categories different).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mistril 10-24-05, 03:03 PM	hello! New member, first post. ^_^ Anyway, here's the question. My DM has ruled that two allies can voluntarily sqeeze themselves into the same square via the squeezing rules. I am of the opinion that the rule that two creatures (of insufficient size difference) cannot occupy the same square, and that supercedes the squeezing rule. However, I can see that this situation could be argued either way. The DM is always right, so for now, allies can volunarily squeeze into the same square. But, I'll be DM in the future and I'm curious as to what the written rules support. Does anyone have a definitive answer?
tarkin 10-24-05, 04:01 PM	The now two creatures in the same space rule is incredible bad rule. The rule itself is clear and simple. Yet it does not allow for the following, all of which are official d20 rules, yet do not explictedly state that they over-ride the no two creatures in a single space: Grapple Bull Rush Over-run Trample Mounted combat. (You and the horse are in that same square) Also, if you use the actual rules then: 1) Two side by side horses pulling a 10ft wide cart must first be made 'helpless'. 2) Two people having sex must first be made helpless. 3) When you hug, you become helpless. 4) If you are carrying your kid, both you and them are helpless. The rule is just plain badly written. I would use your DM's ruling if I were you. I personally state that (unless you are using one of the specail rules listed above - grapling, mounted, bull rush, etc.) when you enter someone's space, neither of you may take any combat actions till one of you leaves the square (but the person who's space you are invading still gets the standard AoO on you for entering his square).
Nom 10-24-05, 06:34 PM	By PH, two creatures upright and in normal tactical combat cannot occupy the same space (see DMG pg 20 for non-combat situations). However, many DMs have noted that the squeezing rules already provide for combat in a restricted space, and applied these when two non-hostile characters try to occupy the same square. I am reliably informed that DMG II contains more discussion of this.
mistril 10-24-05, 07:04 PM	By PH, two creatures upright and in normal tactical combat cannot occupy the same space (see DMG pg 20 for non-combat situations). However, many DMs have noted that the squeezing rules already provide for combat in a restricted space, and applied these when two non-hostile characters try to occupy the same square. I am reliably informed that DMG II contains more discussion of this. Thank you for that clarification, it amazes me how many people who play dnd think that human beings are roughly a 5ft cube. o.O Well maybe us Americans... hehe. According to the rules, I think it is 4 pp can comfortably fit into a 5x5 ft space, and 8 can crowd in. Our DM has a bathroom in his house that is almost exactly 5x5 ft, so we crowded our whole group in there to prove a point. :) It was silly. And I knew I shoulda bought the DMG II ... harumph Thanks for the info, though. ~_^
SALDAR 10-25-05, 11:29 PM	Have your DM read the first sentence under Mixing It Up on page 29 of the DMG. The squeezing rules apply only to small openings, tunnels, etc., not to a creature's space based on size. An ogre (10' space because it is Large size) uses the squeezing rules to pass through a 5' diameter tunnel, not to occupy the 10' space of another ogre in order to attack the same opponent. Also, if you use the actual rules then: 1) Two side by side horses pulling a 10ft wide cart must first be made 'helpless'. 2) Two people having sex must first be made helpless. 3) When you hug, you become helpless. 4) If you are carrying your kid, both you and them are helpless. I was unaware that these were actual combat situations. Then again, I don't pry into other's personal lives.
Nom 10-25-05, 11:55 PM	Have your DM read the first sentence under Mixing It Up on page 29 of the DMG. The squeezing rules apply only to small openings, tunnels, etc., not to a creature's space based on size. An ogre (10' space because it is Large size) uses the squeezing rules to pass through a 5' diameter tunnel, not to occupy the 10' space of another ogre in order to attack the same opponent.However, the penalties the squeezing rules impose on creatures doing the latter are not unreasonable, if you allow it as a house rule.
SALDAR 10-26-05, 09:52 PM	I have no problem with this as a house rule. It does eliminate the rule about not ending your movement in an occupied square (PHB pg 148, Ending Your Movement) that affects a couple of other combat aspects beyond the -4 to attacks and AC. Allowing this would eliminate 5' steps into or out of the space as your movement is hampered by the other creature occupying that space. You cannot take a 5' step when your movement is hampered. A creaure's space is also used to determine how many opponents can attack it at the same time. Allowing this would let twice as many opponents attack the creature (i.e. doubling the number of attacks against it) while the creature itself does not increase its number of attacks against opponents.
Raven Dark 10-26-05, 10:45 PM	I thought that allies could move through each other's squares freely (although they could not stop in them).
Nom 10-26-05, 10:49 PM	A creaure's space is also used to determine how many opponents can attack it at the same time. Allowing this would let twice as many opponents attack the creature (i.e. doubling the number of attacks against it) while the creature itself does not increase its number of attacks against opponents.Somewhat. The surrounding creatures all suffer -4 to all attacks while the surrounded creature effectively gains +4 (-4 to target AC). That's a big difference. That said, a creature is unlikely to face enough opponents in the open to fully surround it even under the normal rules, or at least enough opponents to make a difference. It may make a difference in a narrow corridor or similar very restricted situation, though the squeezing penalties wil make this unattractive. Note that I'm assuming that sharing is voluntary. To enter the square of a creature who doesn't want you to, you need to grapple, bull rush or overrun (or be at least 3 size categories different).