"Stunned" does NOT = "Helpless" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Stunned" does NOT = "Helpless" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deviston
09-11-05, 09:52 PM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050614a

In this "Rules of the Game" edition, Skip describes to us that when one is Stunned, they are also Helpless.

This is my assumtpion. I gather this from these few epcerts:

Helpless: You cannot act when helpless.

Cowering: You cannot act when cowering.

Dazed: You cannot act when dazed.

Dying: When you're dying, you're unconscious and unable to act; see the notes under ability damage and ability drain.

Paralyzed: If paralyzed, you cannot act; see the notes under ability damage and ability drain.

Petrified: When you're petrified, you're considered unconscious; see the notes under ability damage and ability drain.

Stunned: You can't act when stunned.

All of these tell when one cannot take actions. Then is it safe to assume, when one cannot take actions, one is helpless?
The Simbul
09-11-05, 10:32 PM No

Being unable to act does not mean you cannot defend yourself (i.e. are helpless). A dazed person cannot act, but he is not considered helpless because he can still react to the world around him, just not in an offensive sense.
Bopple
09-11-05, 10:46 PM With that kind of logic,
Helpless = Cowering = Dazed = Dying = Paralyzed = Petrified = Stunned.
Deviston
09-11-05, 11:34 PM No

Being unable to act does not mean you cannot defend yourself (i.e. are helpless). A dazed person cannot act, but he is not considered helpless because he can still react to the world around him, just not in an offensive sense.

Ach . . . only for the fact that I have yet to see you wrong, I'll conceed it, but I would really like to see an official ruling in print/online. I have never seen it, only things that can be interpreted either way.
Nom
09-12-05, 12:09 AM Ach . . . only for the fact that I have yet to see you wrong, I'll conceed it, but I would really like to see an official ruling in print/online. I have never seen it, only things that can be interpreted either way.There is a very easy to find official ruling. It is called the Player's Handbook Glossary, and it defines the rules for all these conditions.

The problem you have with Skip's article is that it only summarises the effects that various conditions have on taking actions. This does not mean that you cannot do anything, only that you cannot do anything that requires taking an action. Dazed, stunned and helpless all prevent you from taking actions, but their secondary effects vary widely. Dazed merely prevents you from taking actions. Stunned applies several penalties (to AC, for example). Helpless applies severe penalties to AC and more.
Deviston
09-12-05, 12:18 AM No, if there is any confusion then it is not easy. I want to hear one of these two from the Wizards of the Coast:

"Yes, when you are stunned, you are considered helpless."

"No, when you are stunned you are not considered helpless."

Otherwise it will still be a topic for discussion among many.
Trask
09-12-05, 12:27 AM From the SRD, condition summaries:

Stunned

A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

and

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

It's pretty obvious that you are not helpless while stunned.
Nom
09-12-05, 02:25 AM <deleted>
Nuntius128
09-12-05, 07:13 AM Only those who stubbornly refuse to read the glossary and those who try to be patient with them. :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid that were to ever happen, though, right? :D
Egres
09-12-05, 08:14 AM No, if there is any confusion then it is not easy. I want to hear one of these two from the Wizards of the Coast:

"Yes, when you are stunned, you are considered helpless."

"No, when you are stunned you are not considered helpless."

Otherwise it will still be a topic for discussion among many.
Stop this silliness, please.

From the FAQ:

stunned creatures aren’t helpless; they can’t take any actions and they lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (which makes them subject to sneak attacks), but they are not subject to coup de grace.
Deviston
09-12-05, 09:04 AM Stop this silliness, please.

From the FAQ:

stunned creatures aren’t helpless; they can’t take any actions and they lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (which makes them subject to sneak attacks), but they are not subject to coup de grace.

Thank you. :: humbly nods ::

::END SUBSCRIPTION::

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deviston 09-11-05, 09:52 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050614a In this "Rules of the Game" edition, Skip describes to us that when one is Stunned, they are also Helpless. This is my assumtpion. I gather this from these few epcerts: Helpless: You cannot act when helpless. Cowering: You cannot act when cowering. Dazed: You cannot act when dazed. Dying: When you're dying, you're unconscious and unable to act; see the notes under ability damage and ability drain. Paralyzed: If paralyzed, you cannot act; see the notes under ability damage and ability drain. Petrified: When you're petrified, you're considered unconscious; see the notes under ability damage and ability drain. Stunned: You can't act when stunned. All of these tell when one cannot take actions. Then is it safe to assume, when one cannot take actions, one is helpless?
The Simbul 09-11-05, 10:32 PM	No Being unable to act does not mean you cannot defend yourself (i.e. are helpless). A dazed person cannot act, but he is not considered helpless because he can still react to the world around him, just not in an offensive sense.
Bopple 09-11-05, 10:46 PM	With that kind of logic, Helpless = Cowering = Dazed = Dying = Paralyzed = Petrified = Stunned.
Deviston 09-11-05, 11:34 PM	No Being unable to act does not mean you cannot defend yourself (i.e. are helpless). A dazed person cannot act, but he is not considered helpless because he can still react to the world around him, just not in an offensive sense. Ach . . . only for the fact that I have yet to see you wrong, I'll conceed it, but I would really like to see an official ruling in print/online. I have never seen it, only things that can be interpreted either way.
Nom 09-12-05, 12:09 AM	Ach . . . only for the fact that I have yet to see you wrong, I'll conceed it, but I would really like to see an official ruling in print/online. I have never seen it, only things that can be interpreted either way.There is a very easy to find official ruling. It is called the Player's Handbook Glossary, and it defines the rules for all these conditions. The problem you have with Skip's article is that it only summarises the effects that various conditions have on taking actions. This does not mean that you cannot do anything, only that you cannot do anything that requires taking an action. Dazed, stunned and helpless all prevent you from taking actions, but their secondary effects vary widely. Dazed merely prevents you from taking actions. Stunned applies several penalties (to AC, for example). Helpless applies severe penalties to AC and more.
Deviston 09-12-05, 12:18 AM	No, if there is any confusion then it is not easy. I want to hear one of these two from the Wizards of the Coast: "Yes, when you are stunned, you are considered helpless." "No, when you are stunned you are not considered helpless." Otherwise it will still be a topic for discussion among many.
Trask 09-12-05, 12:27 AM	From the SRD, condition summaries: Stunned A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). and Helpless A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity. Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace. It's pretty obvious that you are not helpless while stunned.
Nom 09-12-05, 02:25 AM	<deleted>
Nuntius128 09-12-05, 07:13 AM	Only those who stubbornly refuse to read the glossary and those who try to be patient with them. :rolleyes: Heaven forbid that were to ever happen, though, right? :D
Egres 09-12-05, 08:14 AM	No, if there is any confusion then it is not easy. I want to hear one of these two from the Wizards of the Coast: "Yes, when you are stunned, you are considered helpless." "No, when you are stunned you are not considered helpless." Otherwise it will still be a topic for discussion among many. Stop this silliness, please. From the FAQ: stunned creatures aren’t helpless; they can’t take any actions and they lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (which makes them subject to sneak attacks), but they are not subject to coup de grace.
Deviston 09-12-05, 09:04 AM	Stop this silliness, please. From the FAQ: stunned creatures aren’t helpless; they can’t take any actions and they lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (which makes them subject to sneak attacks), but they are not subject to coup de grace. Thank you. :: humbly nods :: ::END SUBSCRIPTION::