Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ged Coldplain 09-14-05, 09:48 AM	what do you think is best ? wand with 50 charges or wand with 5xDay Thay have the same price btw* *Looks like the 5xDay wand will be x2 the price of a 50 charges one. Edited to make it clearer that misc items has nothing to do with this :censored: -> ?
Arishem 09-14-05, 10:06 AM	I would probably take the 5/day if it were a choice for my char.
Finarin Panjoro 09-14-05, 10:21 AM	Did you price this 5/day wand as a wand or as a wondrous item? By definition if it is usable 5/day it isn't a wand anymore so the pricing might be different. It would also require the Craft Wondrous Item feat instead of Craft Wand. Atleast that's how I'd see it.
Starmage21 09-14-05, 10:25 AM	Did you price this 5/day wand as a wand or as a wondrous item? By definition if it is usable 5/day it isn't a wand anymore so the pricing might be different. It would also require the Craft Wondrous Item feat instead of Craft Wand. Atleast that's how I'd see it. there are staves that recharge themselves (though they still have charges). If you were to have a wand that had 5 charges/day it would require Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand i think.
Algorithm_X 09-14-05, 10:41 AM	Wondrous items are available at 3rd level rather than 5th level for craft wand. Also Create Wondrous item is so much more useful, it can just rehash spells (like a wand) or use spell as the basis for unique effects. 5 x a day for a "wand-like" wondrous item (ie spell regurgitation) Command Word 1800 x Spell level x Caster level x 2 for no body slot divided by 5/5 also known as 1 (thus for all purposes no modifier for times a day) (plus components costs*) vs wand 375 x level of spell x level of caster (plus components costs*) BTW how do you figure wondrous items are cheaper than wands?? *See DMG 3.5
Ged Coldplain 09-14-05, 11:07 AM	wand with lvl 1 spell 5xDay has a market price of 750 OR 1500* a misc item with lvl 1 spell 5xDay has a market price of 1800 / 3600 (no slot) wand with lvl 4 spell 5xDay has a market price of 21000 OR 41000* a misc item with lvl 4 spell 5xDay has a market price of 50400 / 100800(no slot) A wand with 5xDay is still a wand not a misc item. *Edited
tarkin 09-14-05, 11:32 AM	No it is not. There is no a core rule letting you make wands x5 a day items. Wands are required to be charged, with 50 at creation. Instead what is going on is people are comparing suggested pricing guidelines, while totally ignoring the DMG rules about magic item creation. Strict Game (Stricter than core): x5 items of any kind don't exist already and the DM will not let you make one. Loose Game (Spirit of Core): a x5 Wonderous Item (Not a wand) is an abusive item for most combat related spells and will not be allowed except in very rare circumstances. You can probably make utility spells, such as Dancing Lights, Alarm, Knock, Fabricate, etc. x5, but don't expect anything like a healing spell, an attack spell, or a defensive spell. Power Game (What's Cool?): Sure, go make one. Don't expect to find one already made, but you can make one freely. Anything Goes Game: They already exist.
Ged Coldplain 09-14-05, 11:49 AM	there are staves that recharge themselves (though they still have charges). If you were to have a wand that had 5 charges/day it would require Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand i think. Do the staves need CWI ??? where can I find those staves btw ?
DarknessEternal 09-14-05, 01:14 PM	Eberron has 2x per day wands. They are caster level 6 and max out at 3rd level spells, but they are still non-charged wands.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-14-05, 03:01 PM	Command Word 1800 x Spell level x Caster level x 2 for no body slot divided by 5/5 also known as 1 (thus for all purposes no modifier for times a day) (plus components costs*) the calculation provided by Algorithm_X is "spell regurgitation", and as stated classifies it as a wondrous item. note the bolded section- that is the feature that means it is no longer a wand. Ged Coldplain is suggesting another spell-trigger item, same as the eberron shard eternal wands. (reverse engineering, the secod lowest form of item creation); eternal wand pricing (2/day) 0 lv spell = caster level (1) X spell level (0.5) X 920 Gp = 460 Gp 1 lv spell = caster level (1) X spell level (1) X 820 Gp = 820 Gp 2 lv spell = caster level (3) X spell level (2) X 736.6r Gp = 4,420 Gp 3 lv spell = caster level (5) X spell level (3) X 726.6r Gp = 10,900 Gp so.... eternal wand's get cheaper as they get more powerfull. cool. let me just check the errata. nope nothing. cool. note that the lv 2 & 3 eternal wands are nearly the same cost as a slotted command word item. hmm. well change 2/day to 5/day (*because 2.5 = 5/2 for the 2/day) 920 X 2.5* = 2,300 820 X 2.5* = 2,050 736.6r X 2.5* = 1,841.6r, decrease to 1,840 (due to nice round number syndrome, NRNS) 726.6r X 2.5* = 1,816.6r, decrease to 1,815 (again, NRNS) the average of these values is 2,001.25, decreased to 2,000 1/day spells = caster level X spell level X 400 (400 from 2000/5 = 400, 5 from 5/1 = 5). 2/day spells = caster level X spell level X 800 (800 from 2000/2.5 = 800, 2.5 from 5/2 = 2.5). 3/day spells = caster level X spell level X 1,200 (1,200 from 2000/1.6r = 1,200, 1.6r from 5/3 = 1.6r). 4/day spells = caster level X spell level X 1,600 (1,600 from 2000/1.25 = 1,600, 1.25 from 5/4 = 1.25). 5/day spells = caster level X spells level X 2000 then add cost of material componets as normal for wands (50x cost) then add cost of Xp components as normal for wands (50x cost X 5 Gp) i no longer allow magic items (wondrous or not), that offer more than 5 uses per day, unless it's from a wotc publication, so i wouldn't allow greater eternal wands (except maybe epic). Hmm. well, this is actually more expensive than a slotted command word item. that means it's probably balanced. then; allow eternal wands (x/day wands) to go up to level 4 spells. create eternal staves (x/day staves). eternal staff; all spells draw from the same x/day pool. then; caster level X spell level X (400 X charges per day) for the for the most costly spell plus 75% of the cost for the second most costly (caster level X spell level X 300 X charges per day) plus 50% of the cost of all other spells (caster level X spell level X 200 X charges per day) a specific ability can cost less by requiring more charges for that day (50% cost for 2/day, 33% cost for 3/day, 25% cost for 4/day, 20%cost for 5/day). obviously nothing can cost more than 5 charges per day. there. now i'll retreat before you all start using these on me.
chronocrosselite 09-14-05, 03:08 PM	this may be a little off base but, im wondering technically is the creation of magic items via craft feats limited to those found in the DMG or other books that are premade? cause it seems that alot of DMs dont allow the creation of original items.
CaoSlayer 09-14-05, 04:00 PM	IIRC, in tome and blood book said that you could craft an 3x wand with the price of a 50 charges one... also said about a broken unlimited wand for double price.
Nom 09-14-05, 08:14 PM	what do you think is best ? wand: 50 charges or 5xDay ? Thay have the same price btw.No, they don't. A 50 charge spell trigger item (such as a wand) has a recommended price of 750 gp * SL * CL. A 5x/day command word item has a recommended price of 1800 gp * SL * CL. A 50 charge command word item has a recommended price of 900 * SL * CL, or half the 5x/day / unlimited price. No price is listed for a 5x/day spell trigger item, but extrapolating from the general rule that 50 charges is half unlimited price gives 1500 gp * SL * CL. Thus, the critical question is "how often do you think you will use this item?" If you use the item 5x/day for 20 days, you have broken even with the cost of the charged item. The big advantage of the charged version is that you can use it irregularly, using 15 charges one day and then none for a while. If you only plan on using the item once per day, then go with a 1x/day regular item for 20% standard cost (vs 50% for 50 charges).
Ged Coldplain 09-14-05, 09:35 PM	No price is listed for a 5x/day spell trigger item, but extrapolating from the general rule that 50 charges is half unlimited price gives 1500 gp * SL * CL. hmm that looks rigth Wand:1500 <--20% diff--> misc:1800 limited to class was 20%-30% off if I think, cant find it atm... k, gess ill make a edit then..
Ged Coldplain 09-14-05, 09:49 PM	IIRC, in tome and blood book said that you could craft an 3x wand with the price of a 50 charges one... also said about a broken unlimited wand for double price. Any one remember that funny 1th lvl wild mage spell from 2nd ed Nathals recles deowmer or somthing ? also said about a broken unlimited wand for double price. So for 1500 u can cast any spell u know with 95%!!! of somthing else hapning !!! OMG the pain !!! well abusing unlimited stuff is ok... Making it shoud have the death sentance :twocents:
Lord Schpungus 09-14-05, 10:59 PM	5/day is the same price as unlimited times/day.
Ged Coldplain 09-15-05, 10:46 AM	5/day is the same price as unlimited times/day. The one that made those rules shoud be trown in a pool of acid... Repetedly
Kavu Monarch 09-15-05, 11:01 AM	CREATING WANDS To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand—375 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster. Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created. The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required, one for each charge. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the wand in addition to the XP cost for making the wand itself. Likewise, material components are consumed when she begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a wand can be reused.) The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Crafting a wand requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.Well according to this, a Wand is always charged with 50 charges. So I don't see how a 5/day wand can be created without using the Wonderous Item Creation feat/rules. Kavu. P.S. By the way I'd choose the 50 charges.
CaoSlayer 09-15-05, 12:05 PM	still, let´s analize the duration of a 3/day charged wand vs a 50 charges wand. The duration of the 50 ones when used 3 times a day it is aventuring 16,6 days, that time you surely have leved up twice or three times being way more aforable a new wand... and have the disavantage that you cant use it more times if needed and if it is a rare usable spell like knock can last very more time. I see it those 3/day wands great for sorcerers and bards allowing to use spells like knock, diguise self, gaseous form, etc. when needed and it is very rare to use them more that once per day, but it is worse if you need more casting as uses to hapen with cure light wounds wands. I see it balanced. I would take anyday a 50 charged item over a equally priced 2/day wand, 25 days of duration and the chance to overuse it when needed it more worth the price.
Lord Schpungus 09-15-05, 06:17 PM	The one that made those rules shoud be trown in a pool of acid... Repetedly Why? 4 encounters per day, anything over that amount and it might as well be unlimited.
Dlgood 09-16-05, 09:26 PM	Patrick Draken-Korin posted: Ged Coldplain is suggesting another spell-trigger item, same as the eberron shard eternal wands. (reverse engineering, the secod lowest form of item creation); 0 lv spell = caster level (1) X spell level (0.5) X 920 Gp = 460 Gp 1 lv spell = caster level (1) X spell level (1) X 820 Gp = 820 Gp 2 lv spell = caster level (3) X spell level (2) X 736.6r Gp = 4,420 Gp 3 lv spell = caster level (5) X spell level (3) X 726.6r Gp = 10,900 Gp so.... eternal wand's get cheaper as they get more powerfull. cool. The eternal wand prices were reverse engineered incorrectly: The price includes 100gp for the Eberron Shard required to make the item. Thus: 0 lv spell = caster level (1) X spell level (0.5) X 1800 x (2/5) +100 Gp = 460 Gp 1 lv spell = caster level (1) X spell level (1) X 1800 x (2/5) +100 Gp = 820 Gp 2 lv spell = caster level (3) X spell level (2) X 1800 x (2/5) +100 Gp = 4,420 Gp 3 lv spell = caster level (5) X spell level (3) X 1800 x (2/5) +100 Gp = 10,900 Gp Eternal Wands are not priced as Wands. They are priced like Wondrous Items, but without including the No Space Limitation multplier. Extrapolating, the cost for higher levels would be: 4th = 20,260 5th = 32,500 6th = 47,620 7th = 65,620 8th = 86,500 9th = 110,260
Keenath 09-16-05, 09:59 PM	Why? 4 encounters per day, anything over that amount and it might as well be unlimited.Particularly for attack spells, the device would certainly be used more than once each encounter. For example, a Device of Scorching Rays, which I just made up, is command word activated and shoots a scorching ray spell for 4d6 damage, no save. Encounter 1: Round 1 - buff spell Round 2 - blast Round 3 - blast Round 4 - blast Round 5 - blast Ready for the next encounter? Worse yet, an item that casts any save-or-die spell. Just keep trying until they flub their save. Another abuse of unlimited activation items -- put in something with a long duration, like Mage Armor, and activate it once each hour. It'll never take up a second of game time, and you get all-day Mage Armor for a low, low price. How 'bout unlimited activation cure light wounds? Are we seeing the problem?
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-18-05, 09:03 PM	Dlgood; ??? dagnabit. you're right. forgot about the shard. but, hey, i said reverse engineering an item's price is nearly the lowest form of creating new magic items anyway. but as i stated earlier; Hmm. well, this is actually more expensive than a slotted command word item. that means it's probably balanced. because the general idea is a spell-trigger x/day item. the only comparable item being the spell-trigger 50 charge item (this would be something added under the spell effect section of item creation, not just a mishmash of features). besides, my final calaculation (caster level X spell level X charges X 400 Gp) seems better than simply saying 3/day costs the same as 50 charges. but, hey, do what you want. i add alternate wands & staves (x/day items) to my game, you have fun with your game your way. bye.