Animated Headache [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animated Headache [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wizzzzzard
01-21-07, 04:14 PM A player in my campaign wishes to purchase a +1 Animated Heavy Steel shield. No problem. The party is currently in a large city right now, where such an item can be puchased.

The problem is he thinks that he can use the command word to activate the animate power of the shield at sunrise, and have it last, literally, all day long. The sheild will perform it's function either indefinitely (meaning he never has to activte it again) or until 24 hours have passed, by which he can simply activate the power again for another 24 horus.

I don't think this is right. The description however, doesn't mention how long the enchantment lasts once turned on. His argument is that no duration is listed, so it is indefinite. Until he decides to turn it off.

Another player seems to think that it should stop once a given fight is over. Once no one takes hostile action against the character. Since combats can sometimes end in only a few rounds, but then another could immediately occur, this seems to be excessive short.

I am thininking that there should be a compromise. It should last a few minutes at least. But would an hour be too long? The spell used in the item's creation is Animate Objects, and the enhancement has a CL of 12. The duration of this spell is 1 round per level.

This could translate into an duration of 12 rounds per activation based on the CL. Seems reasonable, since most of our groups combats rarely go this long. I'd be willing to even double the duration for each activation. 24 rounds. Almost 2.5 minutes.

Heck a doubled maximized spell from a 20th level caster would last 40 rounds, or 4 minutes total. And at that level, pushing it to 5 minutes isn't outside a realm of possibility.

Another player recommended looking at Bracers of Armor, and Ring of Force Shield. Both of these items only require Free Actions to use. Ring cost: 8500; +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield: 9170, Bracers of Armor +3: 9000.

Given these costs, is it unreasonable to apply a limited duraton to the Animated enhancement? When similar priced items have free actions to utilize? While the shield would have have a 'penalty' of a standard action to use before nearly every combat?

So, what does anyone here think?
RavenDrake
01-21-07, 04:51 PM Couple of things:

First: Bracers of armour are use activated, they have no activation time as they are always active when on. And the activation time has little to do with duration... the ring of Force Shield provided ONLY a +2 shield bonus as a Heavy Shield and the Bracers are alway in effect while worn. The Animated shield can provide much greater benefit than these so I don't have a problem with it being standard action activation.

As for it's duration, you have two "RAW" choices. Either you can say since it lists no duration then it can last indeffinitely. That means that the character has the benefits, AND ALL the penalties of weilding a shield for as long as it remains active (applicable armour check penalty, arcane spell failure penalty, and weight).

OR that it's duration is based on the spell and caster leve given in it's statistics(12 rounds). But that it can be resumed with another standard action.

Conversely, you could apply any duration you wish that you feel is appropriate to the item, though I can't think of anything that could, rules wise, justify it except saying "I'm the DM so it works this way."
AbyssKnight
01-21-07, 07:31 PM Since there is no limit to the number of times you can use the command word, and outside of combat saying the command word doesn't really matter, I would just let him keep it up all the time.
wizzzzzard
01-21-07, 07:42 PM The character is a dwarf fighter with an average INT, so the armor check penalty and arcane % don't really impact him that much.
draconic_swine
01-21-07, 08:21 PM I'd have to say by the RAW that there's no duration for the shield - the character can even gain its benefits while sleeping, as cheesey as that is. The closest thing to an animated shield is a dancing weapon, and they specifically point out that it lasts for 4 rounds before deactivating.

If you want to impose a limit (which is probably smart, to avoid cheese such as sleeping with the shield activated), the 12 rounds is fair, and isn't an arbitrary number. If the player complains, well, at least the shield lasts a lot longer than a dancing weapon.
Grod_The_Giant
01-21-07, 08:31 PM an animated headache? what's my little brother doing in your game?

but anyway, let him keep it up 24/7, if he wants. The only real purpose of an animated shield is that it lets a TWF/THF warrior still use a shield...

of course, if he wants to sleep with it up, he should take the appropriate penalties.
mvincent
01-21-07, 08:37 PM I'd have to say by the RAW that there's no duration for the shield - the character can even gain its benefits while sleeping, as cheesey as that is. Agreed. It is effectively just like having a normal shield... it just doesn't occupy a hand. No time limit.
paladin2019
01-21-07, 11:55 PM Since the item says it defends as the character using it would, I would rule that it doesn't work while the character sleeps. IIRC, a sleeping character can't wield any other shield why sleeping. ;)
Talonos
01-22-07, 01:51 AM The shield isn't all that bad.

If a wizard uses it, he suffers arcane spell failiure chance. If a non-proficient person uses it, he suffers non-proficiency penalties to attacks.

Yes, a +1 animated tower shield ('bout 9000 GP) gives a +5 bonus to AC, (Equivalent to +5 bracers of armor, costing 25,000 GP) but it gives 50% spell failiure and a -2 to attacks (tower shields are -2, right?) A +1 animated large shield (9000 GP) is equivelant to a set of +3 bracers of armor, and can only be used effectively by warriors types.

If a warrior uses it, he gets an extra hand free. This means that he can use a two handed weapon, and he can draw potions and things from his pouch without having to drop his shield or a weapon. Animated makes the price ofa shield go up by +2. That means he's paying 9000 GP instead of 1000 GP for his +1 shield. If he thinks its worth 8000 gold to have a hand free in combat, let him have it! A two handed weapon generally only increases damage by one die size + 1/2 your str mod anyway (More when power attacking, of course.) Let him have it all the time. It's not unbalancing.

My player had an animated shield. We said that it orbited slowly around him like an ioun stone when he wasn't in combat, but went to interpose itself in front of blows while in combat. After the combat, it would resume its slow orbiting state. I don't feel as though we suffered from balance issues, and I certainly wouldn't "Tax" him a standard action at the begining of every combat when he already paid anywhere from 2-9 times what the shield was worth to get it animated.
mvincent
01-22-07, 11:49 AM Since the item says it defends as the character using it would, I would rule that it doesn't work while the character sleeps. IIRC, a sleeping character can't wield any other shield why sleeping. ;)You'd think, but that is not the case in D&D rules. If a wizard casts sleep on you during a combat, you will still retain your shield bonus to AC
frankthedm
01-22-07, 11:59 AM Given these costs, is it unreasonable to apply a limited duraton to the Animated enhancement? When similar priced items have free actions to utilize? While the shield would have have a 'penalty' of a standard action to use before nearly every combat?

So, what does anyone here think?Remove the Animated shield property from your game. It is for the best. The shield bonus is one of the very few things the one handed weapon has going for it.
paladin2019
01-22-07, 07:53 PM You'd think, but that is not the case in D&D rules. If a wizard casts sleep on you during a combat, you will still retain your shield bonus to AC

But, but, but... dammit, time for a house rule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizzzzzard 01-21-07, 04:14 PM	A player in my campaign wishes to purchase a +1 Animated Heavy Steel shield. No problem. The party is currently in a large city right now, where such an item can be puchased. The problem is he thinks that he can use the command word to activate the animate power of the shield at sunrise, and have it last, literally, all day long. The sheild will perform it's function either indefinitely (meaning he never has to activte it again) or until 24 hours have passed, by which he can simply activate the power again for another 24 horus. I don't think this is right. The description however, doesn't mention how long the enchantment lasts once turned on. His argument is that no duration is listed, so it is indefinite. Until he decides to turn it off. Another player seems to think that it should stop once a given fight is over. Once no one takes hostile action against the character. Since combats can sometimes end in only a few rounds, but then another could immediately occur, this seems to be excessive short. I am thininking that there should be a compromise. It should last a few minutes at least. But would an hour be too long? The spell used in the item's creation is Animate Objects, and the enhancement has a CL of 12. The duration of this spell is 1 round per level. This could translate into an duration of 12 rounds per activation based on the CL. Seems reasonable, since most of our groups combats rarely go this long. I'd be willing to even double the duration for each activation. 24 rounds. Almost 2.5 minutes. Heck a doubled maximized spell from a 20th level caster would last 40 rounds, or 4 minutes total. And at that level, pushing it to 5 minutes isn't outside a realm of possibility. Another player recommended looking at Bracers of Armor, and Ring of Force Shield. Both of these items only require Free Actions to use. Ring cost: 8500; +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield: 9170, Bracers of Armor +3: 9000. Given these costs, is it unreasonable to apply a limited duraton to the Animated enhancement? When similar priced items have free actions to utilize? While the shield would have have a 'penalty' of a standard action to use before nearly every combat? So, what does anyone here think?
RavenDrake 01-21-07, 04:51 PM	Couple of things: First: Bracers of armour are use activated, they have no activation time as they are always active when on. And the activation time has little to do with duration... the ring of Force Shield provided ONLY a +2 shield bonus as a Heavy Shield and the Bracers are alway in effect while worn. The Animated shield can provide much greater benefit than these so I don't have a problem with it being standard action activation. As for it's duration, you have two "RAW" choices. Either you can say since it lists no duration then it can last indeffinitely. That means that the character has the benefits, AND ALL the penalties of weilding a shield for as long as it remains active (applicable armour check penalty, arcane spell failure penalty, and weight). OR that it's duration is based on the spell and caster leve given in it's statistics(12 rounds). But that it can be resumed with another standard action. Conversely, you could apply any duration you wish that you feel is appropriate to the item, though I can't think of anything that could, rules wise, justify it except saying "I'm the DM so it works this way."
AbyssKnight 01-21-07, 07:31 PM	Since there is no limit to the number of times you can use the command word, and outside of combat saying the command word doesn't really matter, I would just let him keep it up all the time.
wizzzzzard 01-21-07, 07:42 PM	The character is a dwarf fighter with an average INT, so the armor check penalty and arcane % don't really impact him that much.
draconic_swine 01-21-07, 08:21 PM	I'd have to say by the RAW that there's no duration for the shield - the character can even gain its benefits while sleeping, as cheesey as that is. The closest thing to an animated shield is a dancing weapon, and they specifically point out that it lasts for 4 rounds before deactivating. If you want to impose a limit (which is probably smart, to avoid cheese such as sleeping with the shield activated), the 12 rounds is fair, and isn't an arbitrary number. If the player complains, well, at least the shield lasts a lot longer than a dancing weapon.
Grod_The_Giant 01-21-07, 08:31 PM	an animated headache? what's my little brother doing in your game? but anyway, let him keep it up 24/7, if he wants. The only real purpose of an animated shield is that it lets a TWF/THF warrior still use a shield... of course, if he wants to sleep with it up, he should take the appropriate penalties.
mvincent 01-21-07, 08:37 PM	I'd have to say by the RAW that there's no duration for the shield - the character can even gain its benefits while sleeping, as cheesey as that is. Agreed. It is effectively just like having a normal shield... it just doesn't occupy a hand. No time limit.
paladin2019 01-21-07, 11:55 PM	Since the item says it defends as the character using it would, I would rule that it doesn't work while the character sleeps. IIRC, a sleeping character can't wield any other shield why sleeping. ;)
Talonos 01-22-07, 01:51 AM	The shield isn't all that bad. If a wizard uses it, he suffers arcane spell failiure chance. If a non-proficient person uses it, he suffers non-proficiency penalties to attacks. Yes, a +1 animated tower shield ('bout 9000 GP) gives a +5 bonus to AC, (Equivalent to +5 bracers of armor, costing 25,000 GP) but it gives 50% spell failiure and a -2 to attacks (tower shields are -2, right?) A +1 animated large shield (9000 GP) is equivelant to a set of +3 bracers of armor, and can only be used effectively by warriors types. If a warrior uses it, he gets an extra hand free. This means that he can use a two handed weapon, and he can draw potions and things from his pouch without having to drop his shield or a weapon. Animated makes the price ofa shield go up by +2. That means he's paying 9000 GP instead of 1000 GP for his +1 shield. If he thinks its worth 8000 gold to have a hand free in combat, let him have it! A two handed weapon generally only increases damage by one die size + 1/2 your str mod anyway (More when power attacking, of course.) Let him have it all the time. It's not unbalancing. My player had an animated shield. We said that it orbited slowly around him like an ioun stone when he wasn't in combat, but went to interpose itself in front of blows while in combat. After the combat, it would resume its slow orbiting state. I don't feel as though we suffered from balance issues, and I certainly wouldn't "Tax" him a standard action at the begining of every combat when he already paid anywhere from 2-9 times what the shield was worth to get it animated.
mvincent 01-22-07, 11:49 AM	Since the item says it defends as the character using it would, I would rule that it doesn't work while the character sleeps. IIRC, a sleeping character can't wield any other shield why sleeping. ;)You'd think, but that is not the case in D&D rules. If a wizard casts sleep on you during a combat, you will still retain your shield bonus to AC
frankthedm 01-22-07, 11:59 AM	Given these costs, is it unreasonable to apply a limited duraton to the Animated enhancement? When similar priced items have free actions to utilize? While the shield would have have a 'penalty' of a standard action to use before nearly every combat? So, what does anyone here think?Remove the Animated shield property from your game. It is for the best. The shield bonus is one of the very few things the one handed weapon has going for it.
paladin2019 01-22-07, 07:53 PM	You'd think, but that is not the case in D&D rules. If a wizard casts sleep on you during a combat, you will still retain your shield bonus to AC But, but, but... dammit, time for a house rule.