Another guns thread, oh boy! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another guns thread, oh boy! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bowmore
10-26-06, 10:07 PM So, a while back, I DMed a campaign that mixed in some 1800s-era technology in certain areas of the game world. This included some personal firearms. We had one character who went by the name of Lloyd T. Bakersfield, and he dual-wielded revolvers. Here's what I ruled for the stats for his guns:

One-handed ranged weapons, 1d6 damage, 18-20 critical threat range, x3 damage multiplier. My reasoning was that a bullet can graze you and do 1 damage, but if it hits you solidly, you're taking some serious damage. His rifle was 1d8, 18-20, and x3, but had a much longer range increment. Both jammed on a natural 1 and required 1d20 minutes of work and a DC 20 craft (gunsmithing) check to make usable again.

What do you think of those rules? I had the player keep strict track of his ammo and reloading (which was a full-round action that provoked AoO), so that wasn't much of a problem. What are your rules for firearms, if you use them at all in your games?
Darth Sephiroth
10-26-06, 10:29 PM I'd suggest you look at the free Iron Kingdoms rules for guns and show them to your DM.
draconic_swine
10-26-06, 10:31 PM What do you think of those rules?

I think if they worked for you and you had fun, they're fine, but they're also massively unbalanced. 18-20/x3 is the equivalent of having a 20/x6 weapon, I believe.

Out of curiosity, what type of proficiency did you require him to have? Also, what were the range increments? Those would both help to compare the stats you used to stats others have used.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-26-06, 10:32 PM One-handed ranged weapons, 1d6 damage, 18-20 critical threat range, x3 damage multiplier. My reasoning was that a bullet can graze you and do 1 damage, but if it hits you solidly, you're taking some serious damage. His rifle was 1d8, 18-20, and x3, but had a much longer range increment. Both jammed on a natural 1 and required 1d20 minutes of work and a DC 20 craft (gunsmithing) check to make usable again.

What do you think of those rules? I had the player keep strict track of his ammo and reloading (which was a full-round action that provoked AoO), so that wasn't much of a problem. What are your rules for firearms, if you use them at all in your games?
My thoughts:

- Either the crit range is FAR too high or the multiplier is. Personally, I like a big modifier with just a range of 20. Think of a buller impact as akin to the impact of a pick or scythe; there is a single point of impact and a very small damage path. Bullets don't generally blow HUGE holes in people.

- I hate hate HATE the jam mechanic. You shouldn't punish a player for his weapon choice. No other weapon in DnD has a chance of mechanical failure -- even the x-bow.

- I hate the loading time too, but that's personal preference.

- Damage is personal preference, but I like a lower dice, with a higher multiplier. 1d6 x3 or 1d6 18-20x2 are both balanced though.

So the balance problems: the crit range/multiplier and the jamming.

Seriously, no matter what else you do, get rid of the jamming so as to keep the game fun and flowing. Taking a player's weapon from him 1 in 20 attacks is cumbersome and annoying.
Horatio Hornblower
10-26-06, 11:12 PM Seriously, no matter what else you do, get rid of the jamming so as to keep the game fun and flowing. Taking a player's weapon from him 1 in 20 attacks is cumbersome and annoying.

I agree. If a weapon fails 5% of the time no one would use it.

Since you're talking about weapons more modern than the firearms in the DMG you should take a look at D20 Modern.

D20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)
Bowmore
10-26-06, 11:38 PM Darth Sephiroth: Where do I find the Iron Kingdoms rules for guns?

Draconic Swine: Using them required an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Taking it let you use the revolver and rifle with no penalty. The pistol had a 30 foot range increment, and the rifle had a 60 foot increment. I'd also like to remind you that the revolver's base damage was a simple 1d6, and the rifle's was 1d8. If they don't crit, they're doing shortbow / longbow damage with no strength modifier. The guns also cost a fair bit of money, and the characters who wanted to use them either had to travel far and wide to buy bullets, or take ranks in craft (gunsmithing) to make their own bullets.

Vaalingrade Ashland: In retrospect, there were times when a natural 1 caused the player to roll his eyes or curse out loud. It wasn't frequent enough that he suggested I get rid of the mechanic, though -- I think he thought they were either realistic or a half-decent attempt at balancing. I can see where you're coming from when you say you hate that mechanic, though -- it is basically punishing someone for using a specific weapon. :(

As for the loading time, reloading each individual bullet into a revolver is clumsy and time-consuming -- even with a quick-loader, it's not something you'd want to do in the middle of a fight. I'm glad you agree with the low damage, though. :)

I've got D20 Modern and D20 Future, thinking of picking up D20 Past. I was a little dissatisfied with how guns were handled, but overall it was okay -- I don't change them when I play D20 Modern. When I decided on these rules for the guns in this particular game, I specifically went for a different style and mechanic: low damage, high threat range, high multiplier. The players seemed to agree it was realistic, though one of them did go pale when an enemy NPC pulled out a revolver...

Next game I run that includes these guns, I'll likely take the advice given here and reduce the multiplier to x2, but keep the threat range nice and high. And yes, I'll get rid of the jamming mechanic. Thanks for the advice and feedback!
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-27-06, 12:16 AM The guns also cost a fair bit of money, and the characters who wanted to use them either had to travel far and wide to buy bullets, or take ranks in craft (gunsmithing) to make their own bullets.
This bit confuses me. With your existing jam mechanic, they were already forced to have craft (gunssmithing) what was the problem with ammo?

Vaalingrade Ashland: In retrospect, there were times when a natural 1 caused the player to roll his eyes or curse out loud. It wasn't frequent enough that he suggested I get rid of the mechanic, though -- I think he thought they were either realistic or a half-decent attempt at balancing. I can see where you're coming from when you say you hate that mechanic, though -- it is basically punishing someone for using a specific weapon. :(
I suspected as such. The second fatal flaw of the jam concept is that once the players have money, they're just going to buy four guns and fix them all that night, thereby bypassing any balance you might have sought to impose.

I'll also note that jam or malfunction mechanics are typically reserved for the ludicrus damage guns people make (2d6 x3 and the like).

As for the loading time, reloading each individual bullet into a revolver is clumsy and time-consuming -- even with a quick-loader, it's not something you'd want to do in the middle of a fight.
My counter argument would be that loading a cart is still far, far less time consuming than drawing an x-bow.

I'm glad you agree with the low damage, though. :)
I'm just glad you didn't make them 2d10 x5 or something. Movies have made people REALLY overestimate the firearm. My pistols actually do 1d4 x4, so yeah (PM me if you want my gun rules. They may give you some ideas)

Next game I run that includes these guns, I'll likely take the advice given here and reduce the multiplier to x2, but keep the threat range nice and high. And yes, I'll get rid of the jamming mechanic. Thanks for the advice and feedback!
Excellent. Glad the boards actually helped.
Darth Sephiroth
10-27-06, 02:18 AM HERE THEY ARE (http://privateerpress.com/docs/privateer_firearms.pdf)
Antavian
10-27-06, 10:15 AM Just give guns 'exploding damage dice'; i.e. whenever a damage die for a gun rolls maximum, roll again and add. Potential for massive amounts of damage due to unpredictability of a bullet's action in the target's body.
I put most guns at 2d6/20 x3. On a crit (6d6), you're looking at an average of one explosion, resulting in "effectively" 7d6 damage. For common folk, that's nasty. For high-level heroes it's not much.
Regardless, a gun using such rules could kill anyone with the right amount of luck.

This opens up tones of feat ideas, d20 Modern feats not withstanding...

Crack Shot [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot
Benefits: Select a gun or gun-type with which you have Weapon Focus. One damage die for the particular gun or gun-type selected always explodes once. For instance, a character with this feat firing a 9-mm pistol rolls 2d6+6 for damage, as one of the dice is assumed to hit a '6' automatically.

Gunslinger [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (pistols), base attack bonus +6 or higher
Benefits: When firing a pistol, add an addtional die of damage. For instance, a pistol is regularly 2d6 points of damage. A character with this feat would deal 3d6 points of damage with such a weapon.

Gunslinger Elite [Epic, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Epic Weapon Focus (pistols), Gunslinger, base attack bonus +21
Benefits: When firing a pistol, increase the damage dice by one type. For instance, a pistol is regularly 2d6 points of damage. A character with Gunslinger Elite (pistols) would deal 3d8 points of damage with such a weapon (2d8 + 1 die from the Gunslinger feat).

Uncanny Gunslinger [Epic, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Epic Weapon Focus (pistols), Gunslinger Elite, base attack bonus +30
Benefits: When firing a pistol, explode a die on the top two possible results. For instance, when firing a pistol that uses d8s, explode a die on a result of a 7 or an 8.
draconic_swine
10-27-06, 11:01 AM It was funny to see your ranges were 30 feet and 60 feet, because whenever we play with guns we use the same ranges for pistols and muskets, respectively. We also only use a single exotic proficiency for both, which I'm glad to see you do too.

When I stat guns I usually base them off crossbows, for damage, range increment, and loading time. My players also like use two dice for gun damage -- 2d4 instead of 1d8, 2d6 instead of 1d12, etc.

Pistols deal 2d4 damage, take a move action to reload, and are one handed, so we reduce the light crossbow's range increment by 20 feet and then halve it. Muskets take a full-round action to reload, and have half the range increment of a heavy crossbow (60 feet). Depending on the game, we've had muskets deal either 2d6 damage, 2d5 damage (we have a pair of d10s that have been engraved 1-5 twice), or 2d6 damage but require something to support the weapon or take a -2 penalty. The reason behind the changes is that we feel that a straight 2d6 is a bit high, but we're not completely sure. All guns can be fired from prone and have a x3 critical.

We also don't bother with the jam rule.

Finally, the reasoning for such "short" reload times is similar to Vaalingrade's: even though we use blackpowder weapons, which obviously took longer to reload, crossbows would've taken longer too (even if probably not as long as blackpower weapons). There are some things you have to sacrifice to keep it balanced for the game.
kadeity
10-27-06, 11:12 AM dragon magazine 301 has OFFICIAL rules for guns in dnd.
Catra
10-27-06, 11:30 AM Seems to be that because of the nature of bullets to do severe damage depending on what organs they hit, it would make sense for them to do Constitution damage when they critical.
lint trap
10-27-06, 11:41 AM The DMG already has rules for guns. If you're looking for older weapons, though, look up d20 Past. But in general, handguns deal 2d6/x2, have a range of 30 ft. Early firearms take two full-round actions to load, and on a fumble they misfire and require 10 minutes to clean.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-27-06, 12:52 PM Seems to be that because of the nature of bullets to do severe damage depending on what organs they hit, it would make sense for them to do Constitution damage when they critical.
All weapons should do this if guns do.

The DMG already has rules for guns.
Poor ones.
lint trap
10-27-06, 02:04 PM Poor ones.

They work fine in d20 Modern, where there's little (if any) magical healing and massive damage thresholds are well within range. I guess it depends on what role you're looking for the weapon to play. In a fantasy D&D world, though, a handgun will never stand up to a Wand of Magic Missiles.
Patrick Draken-Korin
10-27-06, 11:18 PM Consider that, though D20 modern does have a balanced firearm system, it is for D20 modern. What I mean is that when transfering something from D&D or D20 modern to the other, you don't just pack it whole and ship it do you?

You have to consider the differences between the systems (class defense, wealth levels, spellcasting classes, and yes, availability of healing effects). If you add a wizard into D20 modern as is, the subject will be more powerful magically than the setting is made for and won't have the class defense bonus or appropriate skills. If you add D20 moder firearms to D&D they won't be generalized (look at the threads on broad swords), and will have an extremely different damage range from anything else considered balanced (2d4 to 2d12 as opposed to 1d4 to 2d6).

The thing that I really like about "official rules" whether in a supplement or for an alternate system is that they are often taylored to be extremely cool or extreme crap, and how which is which often defined by what other rules you use. Of course that's what I dislike about official rules too.

I can't say how well the rules in that dragon mag or in iron knigdoms work, but I can say that I dislike the way D20 modern firearms work in D&D. The system is well thought out, internally consistent and cool. It is also more powerful than any weapon allowed by the core rules, WotC supplementary rules, or my house rules (which go beyond the first two).

----
Wait, I'm replying to the OP. Yes, that's a good ad hoc set of firearms, better without the jamming.

A 19/x3 weapon is equivalent to 20x5 or 17/x2, and 18/x3 is equivalent to 20/x7 or 15/x2. I go with a 20/x3 critical for firearms myself. On the other hand, I'd say jamming is actually a balanced factor with 18/x3 weapon.

Well, maybe not balanced; adding another imbalance doesn't fix the first. More like a mitigating factor that matches an imbalance without making it actually balance out (like having random numbers on either each side of an equation).

Whatever. As long as you (all) had fun, and the game didn't implode around your ruling, you've done a good job.

Game Happy.
Kargush
10-28-06, 05:23 AM Take a look at Deadlands. The guns rules there are just nice. OK, it's 3rd ed, but still. Even had a long list of different firearms, from Peacemakers to Sharps .50...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bowmore 10-26-06, 10:07 PM	So, a while back, I DMed a campaign that mixed in some 1800s-era technology in certain areas of the game world. This included some personal firearms. We had one character who went by the name of Lloyd T. Bakersfield, and he dual-wielded revolvers. Here's what I ruled for the stats for his guns: One-handed ranged weapons, 1d6 damage, 18-20 critical threat range, x3 damage multiplier. My reasoning was that a bullet can graze you and do 1 damage, but if it hits you solidly, you're taking some serious damage. His rifle was 1d8, 18-20, and x3, but had a much longer range increment. Both jammed on a natural 1 and required 1d20 minutes of work and a DC 20 craft (gunsmithing) check to make usable again. What do you think of those rules? I had the player keep strict track of his ammo and reloading (which was a full-round action that provoked AoO), so that wasn't much of a problem. What are your rules for firearms, if you use them at all in your games?
Darth Sephiroth 10-26-06, 10:29 PM	I'd suggest you look at the free Iron Kingdoms rules for guns and show them to your DM.
draconic_swine 10-26-06, 10:31 PM	What do you think of those rules? I think if they worked for you and you had fun, they're fine, but they're also massively unbalanced. 18-20/x3 is the equivalent of having a 20/x6 weapon, I believe. Out of curiosity, what type of proficiency did you require him to have? Also, what were the range increments? Those would both help to compare the stats you used to stats others have used.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-26-06, 10:32 PM	One-handed ranged weapons, 1d6 damage, 18-20 critical threat range, x3 damage multiplier. My reasoning was that a bullet can graze you and do 1 damage, but if it hits you solidly, you're taking some serious damage. His rifle was 1d8, 18-20, and x3, but had a much longer range increment. Both jammed on a natural 1 and required 1d20 minutes of work and a DC 20 craft (gunsmithing) check to make usable again. What do you think of those rules? I had the player keep strict track of his ammo and reloading (which was a full-round action that provoked AoO), so that wasn't much of a problem. What are your rules for firearms, if you use them at all in your games? My thoughts: - Either the crit range is FAR too high or the multiplier is. Personally, I like a big modifier with just a range of 20. Think of a buller impact as akin to the impact of a pick or scythe; there is a single point of impact and a very small damage path. Bullets don't generally blow HUGE holes in people. - I hate hate HATE the jam mechanic. You shouldn't punish a player for his weapon choice. No other weapon in DnD has a chance of mechanical failure -- even the x-bow. - I hate the loading time too, but that's personal preference. - Damage is personal preference, but I like a lower dice, with a higher multiplier. 1d6 x3 or 1d6 18-20x2 are both balanced though. So the balance problems: the crit range/multiplier and the jamming. Seriously, no matter what else you do, get rid of the jamming so as to keep the game fun and flowing. Taking a player's weapon from him 1 in 20 attacks is cumbersome and annoying.
Horatio Hornblower 10-26-06, 11:12 PM	Seriously, no matter what else you do, get rid of the jamming so as to keep the game fun and flowing. Taking a player's weapon from him 1 in 20 attacks is cumbersome and annoying. I agree. If a weapon fails 5% of the time no one would use it. Since you're talking about weapons more modern than the firearms in the DMG you should take a look at D20 Modern. D20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)
Bowmore 10-26-06, 11:38 PM	Darth Sephiroth: Where do I find the Iron Kingdoms rules for guns? Draconic Swine: Using them required an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Taking it let you use the revolver and rifle with no penalty. The pistol had a 30 foot range increment, and the rifle had a 60 foot increment. I'd also like to remind you that the revolver's base damage was a simple 1d6, and the rifle's was 1d8. If they don't crit, they're doing shortbow / longbow damage with no strength modifier. The guns also cost a fair bit of money, and the characters who wanted to use them either had to travel far and wide to buy bullets, or take ranks in craft (gunsmithing) to make their own bullets. Vaalingrade Ashland: In retrospect, there were times when a natural 1 caused the player to roll his eyes or curse out loud. It wasn't frequent enough that he suggested I get rid of the mechanic, though -- I think he thought they were either realistic or a half-decent attempt at balancing. I can see where you're coming from when you say you hate that mechanic, though -- it is basically punishing someone for using a specific weapon. :( As for the loading time, reloading each individual bullet into a revolver is clumsy and time-consuming -- even with a quick-loader, it's not something you'd want to do in the middle of a fight. I'm glad you agree with the low damage, though. :) I've got D20 Modern and D20 Future, thinking of picking up D20 Past. I was a little dissatisfied with how guns were handled, but overall it was okay -- I don't change them when I play D20 Modern. When I decided on these rules for the guns in this particular game, I specifically went for a different style and mechanic: low damage, high threat range, high multiplier. The players seemed to agree it was realistic, though one of them did go pale when an enemy NPC pulled out a revolver... Next game I run that includes these guns, I'll likely take the advice given here and reduce the multiplier to x2, but keep the threat range nice and high. And yes, I'll get rid of the jamming mechanic. Thanks for the advice and feedback!
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-06, 12:16 AM	The guns also cost a fair bit of money, and the characters who wanted to use them either had to travel far and wide to buy bullets, or take ranks in craft (gunsmithing) to make their own bullets. This bit confuses me. With your existing jam mechanic, they were already forced to have craft (gunssmithing) what was the problem with ammo? Vaalingrade Ashland: In retrospect, there were times when a natural 1 caused the player to roll his eyes or curse out loud. It wasn't frequent enough that he suggested I get rid of the mechanic, though -- I think he thought they were either realistic or a half-decent attempt at balancing. I can see where you're coming from when you say you hate that mechanic, though -- it is basically punishing someone for using a specific weapon. :( I suspected as such. The second fatal flaw of the jam concept is that once the players have money, they're just going to buy four guns and fix them all that night, thereby bypassing any balance you might have sought to impose. I'll also note that jam or malfunction mechanics are typically reserved for the ludicrus damage guns people make (2d6 x3 and the like). As for the loading time, reloading each individual bullet into a revolver is clumsy and time-consuming -- even with a quick-loader, it's not something you'd want to do in the middle of a fight. My counter argument would be that loading a cart is still far, far less time consuming than drawing an x-bow. I'm glad you agree with the low damage, though. :) I'm just glad you didn't make them 2d10 x5 or something. Movies have made people REALLY overestimate the firearm. My pistols actually do 1d4 x4, so yeah (PM me if you want my gun rules. They may give you some ideas) Next game I run that includes these guns, I'll likely take the advice given here and reduce the multiplier to x2, but keep the threat range nice and high. And yes, I'll get rid of the jamming mechanic. Thanks for the advice and feedback! Excellent. Glad the boards actually helped.
Darth Sephiroth 10-27-06, 02:18 AM	HERE THEY ARE (http://privateerpress.com/docs/privateer_firearms.pdf)
Antavian 10-27-06, 10:15 AM	Just give guns 'exploding damage dice'; i.e. whenever a damage die for a gun rolls maximum, roll again and add. Potential for massive amounts of damage due to unpredictability of a bullet's action in the target's body. I put most guns at 2d6/20 x3. On a crit (6d6), you're looking at an average of one explosion, resulting in "effectively" 7d6 damage. For common folk, that's nasty. For high-level heroes it's not much. Regardless, a gun using such rules could kill anyone with the right amount of luck. This opens up tones of feat ideas, d20 Modern feats not withstanding... Crack Shot [Fighter] Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot Benefits: Select a gun or gun-type with which you have Weapon Focus. One damage die for the particular gun or gun-type selected always explodes once. For instance, a character with this feat firing a 9-mm pistol rolls 2d6+6 for damage, as one of the dice is assumed to hit a '6' automatically. Gunslinger [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (pistols), base attack bonus +6 or higher Benefits: When firing a pistol, add an addtional die of damage. For instance, a pistol is regularly 2d6 points of damage. A character with this feat would deal 3d6 points of damage with such a weapon. Gunslinger Elite [Epic, Fighter] Prerequisites: Epic Weapon Focus (pistols), Gunslinger, base attack bonus +21 Benefits: When firing a pistol, increase the damage dice by one type. For instance, a pistol is regularly 2d6 points of damage. A character with Gunslinger Elite (pistols) would deal 3d8 points of damage with such a weapon (2d8 + 1 die from the Gunslinger feat). Uncanny Gunslinger [Epic, Fighter] Prerequisites: Epic Weapon Focus (pistols), Gunslinger Elite, base attack bonus +30 Benefits: When firing a pistol, explode a die on the top two possible results. For instance, when firing a pistol that uses d8s, explode a die on a result of a 7 or an 8.
draconic_swine 10-27-06, 11:01 AM	It was funny to see your ranges were 30 feet and 60 feet, because whenever we play with guns we use the same ranges for pistols and muskets, respectively. We also only use a single exotic proficiency for both, which I'm glad to see you do too. When I stat guns I usually base them off crossbows, for damage, range increment, and loading time. My players also like use two dice for gun damage -- 2d4 instead of 1d8, 2d6 instead of 1d12, etc. Pistols deal 2d4 damage, take a move action to reload, and are one handed, so we reduce the light crossbow's range increment by 20 feet and then halve it. Muskets take a full-round action to reload, and have half the range increment of a heavy crossbow (60 feet). Depending on the game, we've had muskets deal either 2d6 damage, 2d5 damage (we have a pair of d10s that have been engraved 1-5 twice), or 2d6 damage but require something to support the weapon or take a -2 penalty. The reason behind the changes is that we feel that a straight 2d6 is a bit high, but we're not completely sure. All guns can be fired from prone and have a x3 critical. We also don't bother with the jam rule. Finally, the reasoning for such "short" reload times is similar to Vaalingrade's: even though we use blackpowder weapons, which obviously took longer to reload, crossbows would've taken longer too (even if probably not as long as blackpower weapons). There are some things you have to sacrifice to keep it balanced for the game.
kadeity 10-27-06, 11:12 AM	dragon magazine 301 has OFFICIAL rules for guns in dnd.
Catra 10-27-06, 11:30 AM	Seems to be that because of the nature of bullets to do severe damage depending on what organs they hit, it would make sense for them to do Constitution damage when they critical.
lint trap 10-27-06, 11:41 AM	The DMG already has rules for guns. If you're looking for older weapons, though, look up d20 Past. But in general, handguns deal 2d6/x2, have a range of 30 ft. Early firearms take two full-round actions to load, and on a fumble they misfire and require 10 minutes to clean.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-06, 12:52 PM	Seems to be that because of the nature of bullets to do severe damage depending on what organs they hit, it would make sense for them to do Constitution damage when they critical. All weapons should do this if guns do. The DMG already has rules for guns. Poor ones.
lint trap 10-27-06, 02:04 PM	Poor ones. They work fine in d20 Modern, where there's little (if any) magical healing and massive damage thresholds are well within range. I guess it depends on what role you're looking for the weapon to play. In a fantasy D&D world, though, a handgun will never stand up to a Wand of Magic Missiles.
Patrick Draken-Korin 10-27-06, 11:18 PM	Consider that, though D20 modern does have a balanced firearm system, it is for D20 modern. What I mean is that when transfering something from D&D or D20 modern to the other, you don't just pack it whole and ship it do you? You have to consider the differences between the systems (class defense, wealth levels, spellcasting classes, and yes, availability of healing effects). If you add a wizard into D20 modern as is, the subject will be more powerful magically than the setting is made for and won't have the class defense bonus or appropriate skills. If you add D20 moder firearms to D&D they won't be generalized (look at the threads on broad swords), and will have an extremely different damage range from anything else considered balanced (2d4 to 2d12 as opposed to 1d4 to 2d6). The thing that I really like about "official rules" whether in a supplement or for an alternate system is that they are often taylored to be extremely cool or extreme crap, and how which is which often defined by what other rules you use. Of course that's what I dislike about official rules too. I can't say how well the rules in that dragon mag or in iron knigdoms work, but I can say that I dislike the way D20 modern firearms work in D&D. The system is well thought out, internally consistent and cool. It is also more powerful than any weapon allowed by the core rules, WotC supplementary rules, or my house rules (which go beyond the first two). ---- Wait, I'm replying to the OP. Yes, that's a good ad hoc set of firearms, better without the jamming. A 19/x3 weapon is equivalent to 20x5 or 17/x2, and 18/x3 is equivalent to 20/x7 or 15/x2. I go with a 20/x3 critical for firearms myself. On the other hand, I'd say jamming is actually a balanced factor with 18/x3 weapon. Well, maybe not balanced; adding another imbalance doesn't fix the first. More like a mitigating factor that matches an imbalance without making it actually balance out (like having random numbers on either each side of an equation). Whatever. As long as you (all) had fun, and the game didn't implode around your ruling, you've done a good job. Game Happy.
Kargush 10-28-06, 05:23 AM	Take a look at Deadlands. The guns rules there are just nice. OK, it's 3rd ed, but still. Even had a long list of different firearms, from Peacemakers to Sharps .50...