Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seraphin138 05-16-06, 03:05 AM	i just can't find it anymore... 1) i think you can sneak attack with spells, right? 2) and if the spell deals energy damage, the additionnal damage dealt by sneak attack is of the same type, yes? 3) for example : you are a rogue 1 /wizard 1 ; you use ray of frost to sneak attack a foe, so you deal 1d3 cold damage + 1d6 cold damage, correct? 4) but you can't for exapmle sneak attack with magic missile since you don't aim, right?
folxnumeroso 05-16-06, 03:08 AM	I think that's right, but check the article "All About Sneak Attacks" to make sure (it's under Rules of the Game). I think that's where you got the idea.
bondious 05-16-06, 03:19 AM	To seraphin138: As far as I know, and by the way I play/DM it, you are correct. You can sneak attack and critical hit with spells requiring an attack roll, and the extra damage would be of the appropriate type, just like a sneak attack made with a weapon.
Father Dale 05-16-06, 10:55 AM	Tome and Blood and Complete Arcane go into good detail about sneak attacking/criticals with spells. Particularly Tome and Blood at page 79. They both use the term "weaponlike spells" to designate the types of spells that can have increased effects with sneak attacks/criticals. A weaponlike spell is a spell that: 1. causes damage (hitpoint damage, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, energy drain); and, 2. requires an attack roll. This is the same definition used in the players handbook by the way. Some things to remember about extra damage from weaponlike spells: a. Extra damage is of the same type as is normally done by the spell, i.e. a sneak attack with scorching ray would do extra fire damage. A critical hit with Enervation would give extra negative levels. A sneak attack with Inflict Light Wounds would deal extra negative energy damage. b. Only damage that is dealt immediately is increased. For example, if you critical hit with Melf's Acid Arrow, only the first round of damage is doubled; the damage dealt in following rounds is not. c. If you sneak attack with a spell that does ability damage/drain has an energy drain effect, the extra damage is negative energy damage rather than ability damage or extra negative levels. For instance, if you sneak attack with Enervation, you would do 1d4 negative levels plus your sneak attack damage in negative energy damage. Critical hits with these types of spells still doubles the actual damage whether it is ability damage/drain or energy drain. For example, if you critical hit and sneak attack with Enervation, you would deal 2d4 negative levels plus your sneak attack damage in negative energy damage. d. You CANNOT critical hit/sneak attack with spells that impose penalties and do no actual damage. For instance, you cannot critical hit/sneak attack with Ray of Enfeeblement since it does no damage; it only applies a penalty. Hope that helps!
Francius 05-16-06, 01:08 PM	I think that's right, but check the article "All About Sneak Attacks" to make sure (it's under Rules of the Game). I think that's where you got the idea. :confused: Can you put a link please?
tarkin 05-16-06, 01:40 PM	Father Dale is correct. I would further point out that both Criticals and Sneak attack can ONLY do hitpoint damage. You can not for example heal yourself more points by Criting (or Sneak Attackign) on yourself with a Cure Light Wounds. Some Power Gamers House Rule to let you heal yourself more points by critting (or Sneak Attacking) an enemy with the spell Vampiric Touch. This is not allowed if you follow the official WoTC rules, as played at GenCon, Living City, etc.
Witch 05-16-06, 01:42 PM	Father Dale is correct. I would further point out that both Criticals and Sneak attack can ONLY do hitpoint damage. Father Dale's post also mentioned that if enervation crits, you'd get extra negative levels. Could you care to confirm that he's right, here?
Tsuul 05-16-06, 01:44 PM	It deals negative engery damage instead of dealing extra negative levels.
Witch 05-16-06, 01:45 PM	It deals negative engery damage instead of dealing extra negative levels. I know this is so with a sneak attack, but I doubt it with a critical. Note that I'm not sure - I'm asking.
Dragonsblood 05-16-06, 03:27 PM	I know this is so with a sneak attack, but I doubt it with a critical. Note that I'm not sure - I'm asking. I think a crit with enervation would add additional negative levels because there's no way of knowing how much HP damage to roll.
Father Dale 05-16-06, 06:02 PM	My understanding is that critical hits multiply the actual effect, i.e. ability drain, energy drain, etc.. This is from pg 79 of Tome and Blood (which also uses enervation as an example) and I think there is also an example listed in Comp Arcane. So for Enervation if you crit, its 2d4 negative levels. If you sneak attack, your sneak attack damage is negative energy damage. I think its this way because many things wouldn't work well with sneak attacks. Again with Enervation, 2d4 negative levels on a crit is one thing, but 1d4 + 5d6 negative levels on a sneak attack would be absolutely devestating (if not definitely fatal, 6 to 34 negative levels is rough), far more so than sneak attack should be. The same with a spell that does, say 1d6 Con damage (I can't think of any such spells off the top of my head.) On a crit, that would be 2d6 Con damage, which is bad. But if you did 1d6 + 5d6 sneak attack con damage, that would destroy almost any living creature. So I think for balance reasons, they limited the sneak attack damage to just actual hitpoint damage. Plus, there is no mechanic for determining how many hitpoints of damage would be done on a critical if there is no hitpoint damage to begin with; i.e. what woudl the hitpoint damage be on a critical enervation that does 1d4 negative levels?
Tsuul 05-16-06, 06:13 PM	Ah, a crit. I misunderstood. It sounds like you guys have it hashed out pretty well though.