Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mountainviking 06-20-06, 01:51 PM	OK, first, I searched out the past threads and found a great debate raging...I'm wondering if there is official errata on this one yet...? Here's my opinion: 1. The argument about the feat Weapon Focus description seems way off base! One feat does not a rule make!!!! It only defines that feat!!! And, grapple is a special attack, not a special weapon! 2. A grapple IS an unarmed attack. (And a requirement for the feat, Improved Grapple-if you insist on the argument mentioned in 1) 3. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. Ie. While Grappling. A monk may headbutt, knee, elbow etc...and in a flurry, at -6 to the attacks. I don't see a grapple check needed to do this, as long as you two are already grappling. The opponent still gets his chances to escape on his turn... 4. Following the above, I think it is reasonable to allow attempting to start a grapple in a flurry also...The monk jabs for the face and then dives for the takedown...or tries once to grab and misses, but the other hand takes hold... You want proof? Just watch a little UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) ufc.com
mountainviking 06-20-06, 01:53 PM	regarding 3. And when the opponent tries to escape, the monk is still at -2 to her BAB for the round!
Witchblade 06-20-06, 02:05 PM	As a DM I allow Monks to use their Flurry in grapples.
Erak 06-20-06, 02:53 PM	Errata implies an error......what is the error you think needs correcting? Monks have many advantages in a grapple over other character types. They deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes at their normal damage rate. They can flurry with unarmed strikes or light monk weapons because they are not bound to the "attack with one weapon" rule which happers characters with TWF. This is one of the few areas of melee where Monks shine.
Thorak 06-20-06, 03:05 PM	Errata implies an error......what is the error you think needs correcting? Monks have many advantages in a grapple over other character types. They deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes at their normal damage rate. They can flurry with unarmed strikes or light monk weapons because they are not bound to the "attack with one weapon" rule which happers characters with TWF. This is one of the few areas of melee where Monks shine. Not at high levels, and not when compared to any warrior type with a full BAB. Grapple is BAB based. BAB plus Strength. At level 20, a Monk is 5 points behind anyone with a full BAB. A difference not even Improved Grapple can make up. If you want a good grappler, start with a Barbarian. They're the best for it, with full BAB and easy Strength boosts from Raging.
Erak 06-20-06, 03:30 PM	regarding 3. And when the opponent tries to escape, the monk is still at -2 to her BAB for the round! Not really. Escaping a grapple is an opposed grapple check.....not an opposed attack roll. Defending grapples are always at your highest BAB no matter what.
Erak 06-20-06, 03:34 PM	Not at high levels, and not when compared to any warrior type with a full BAB. Grapple is BAB based. BAB plus Strength. At level 20, a Monk is 5 points behind anyone with a full BAB. A difference not even Improved Grapple can make up. If you want a good grappler, start with a Barbarian. They're the best for it, with full BAB and easy Strength boosts from Raging. You are right that it is easier for a full BAB class to start a grapple.......but once in a grapple I will stack a Monk with FoB unarmed up against any full BAB class with a light weapon at -4 to attack or doing unarmed damage. Any day.
Thorak 06-20-06, 04:42 PM	You are right that it is easier for a full BAB class to start a grapple.......but once in a grapple I will stack a Monk with FoB unarmed up against any full BAB class with a light weapon at -4 to attack or doing unarmed damage. Any day. Really? Good to know. Going to suck when the Barbarian's pinned you, with a grapple check 9 points or so higher than yours could be, and you can't do anything to him. And have a ridiculously low chance of successfully escaping the pin to even try. Monks are bad at grappling, unless the other creature in the grapple has a lower Strength and BAB than they do. Which won't be true of almost every melee-based character in the game.
Erak 06-20-06, 05:00 PM	And what is your Barbie going to do while the monk is pinned? Use unarmed strikes on her at a -4 penalty to hit with progressively lower BAB against the full grapple of the Monk? Good luck. Worse case the Monk would use Escape Artist to break the pin......forcing you to waste your highest grapple attempt to reestablish the pin each round.
ShinAkuma2 06-20-06, 06:14 PM	Going to suck when the Barbarian's pinned you, with a grapple check 9 points or so higher than yours could be, and you can't do anything to him. And have a ridiculously low chance of successfully escaping the pin to even try. You seem to forget that a Monk15+ will have 5 attacks, 3 of which are at maximum BAB. The Barbarian has one chance at a higher BAB, then three at lesser totals, unless he also has Improved Grapple (I dunno, I don't think it's that common a choice for Barbs). I'd bet on the Monk having better grapple checks overall. Further, the bonus from raging is negated if the Monk was smart enough to pick up Improved Trip. And don't forget the fact that Monks can do lethal or non-lethal damage at will...When it comes to constructs or undead, grappling is worthless for a barbarian without Improved Unarmed Strike, but merely deadly ( =P ) for a Monk. Yeah, not the best example, but still, the Monk will do better here. Finally, if the Barb can't KO the Monk in about a minute, all those bonuses go away, and unless he's Barb17, he's fatigued. Sucks.
Egres 06-20-06, 06:23 PM	Further, the bonus from raging is negated if the Monk was smart enough to pick up Improved Trip. Imp. Grapple.
Bulletproof_Condom 06-20-06, 06:36 PM	Monks can perform a flurry of grapples, or a flurry of blows during a grapple, as indicated in a recent FAQ. The reason for this is that a grapple is a special attack you do with an unarmed strike, and not a weapon unto itself, even though it's still a valid choice for Weapon Focus, apparently. I support the FAQ. Even with that, monks still aren't very good at grappling their peers. They have a great deal more options available to them in a grapple, but they're lacking the most important part; a high grapple check. A half-orc monk with Weakening Touch, Improved Grapple, Clever Wrestling, and a maxxed out Escape Artist check (just in case) would make a decent grappler. But he'd probably still be better off multiclassing to fighter at some point.
Erak 06-20-06, 06:36 PM	Then you have the whole arguement as to whether you can really pin someone while raging. Wrestling and pinning an opponent is all about patience and skill.......and raging is not really conducive to performing any action that requires patience.
GhostStepper 06-20-06, 06:45 PM	Then you have the whole arguement as to whether you can really pin someone while raging. Wrestling and pinning an opponent is all about patience and skill.......and raging is not really conducive to performing any action that requires patience. Pinning isnt necessarily about patience and skill. It can be, but not necessarily. Theres nothing in the RAW that would prevent a raging Barbarian from pinning an opponent. In fact, the Earth's Embrace feat seems to imply that bear-hugging someone to death involves a pin and would be the kind of action that is totally condusive to a raging barbarian.
Thorak 06-20-06, 06:50 PM	And what is your Barbie going to do while the monk is pinned? Use unarmed strikes on her at a -4 penalty to hit with progressively lower BAB against the full grapple of the Monk? Good luck. I'd make an opposed grapple check to damage you. I get 4 shots. If you do manage to resist them, all that happens is you don't take damage from that one shot. Worse case the Monk would use Escape Artist to break the pin......forcing you to waste your highest grapple attempt to reestablish the pin each round. So you use Escape Artist, this uses your standard action, and because you're still grappled, you can't move away. And the Barbarian has 4 chances to pin you and pound on you next round. And let's be clear; the Barbarian likely has at least a natural 22 Strength. With a Belt of Giant's Strength +6 and Rage, his grapple check is at +33. +37 with Improved Grapple. Your Escape Artist has at most 23 ranks, so I'm assuming your Dexterity is 38, to have even a 50% chance of breaking the grapple. Even if you too Skill Focus, that's still a 32 Dex needed for a 50% chance. So, you're a high-Dex monk, which means your Strength is likely too low to grapple at all, or if it is, your Con is ridiculously low. And You've got a 50% chance of forcing the barbarian to use one of his attacks to pin you each round, while he gets the remaining ones to deal damage to you, to the tune of 1d3+13 damage. You're dealing no damage, he's dealing 14 or so a hit. Guess who dies first? You seem to forget that a Monk15+ will have 5 attacks, 3 of which are at maximum BAB. The Barbarian has one chance at a higher BAB, then three at lesser totals, unless he also has Improved Grapple (I dunno, I don't think it's that common a choice for Barbs). I'd bet on the Monk having better grapple checks overall. Then you bet wrong. The Monk trades one +20 attack bonus for two +15s. With the disadvantage that he can never get higher than +15 for a base. When the barbarian is resisting the monk, he starts with a +5 advantage and stays there. The Monk starts with a 5 point penalty. Further, the bonus from raging is negated if the Monk was smart enough to pick up Improved Trip. I assume you mean Improved Grapple, and it's not "negated", it's matched. The barbarian still has a +5 bonus over you. Assuming he doesn't have Improved Grapple, which is something I often take, considering how many lethal grapple situations there are. And don't forget the fact that Monks can do lethal or non-lethal damage at will...When it comes to constructs or undead, grappling is worthless for a barbarian without Improved Unarmed Strike, but merely deadly ( =P ) for a Monk. Yeah, not the best example, but still, the Monk will do better here. The Barbarian takes a -4 to deal lethal damage in a grapple. Or he uses a light weapon, at a -4. Like armor spikes. Even with that penalty, and assuming the monk has IG and the barbarian doesn't, and that their base Strengths are the same, the Barbarian still has a better Grapple check. And those are big assumptions, all in the favor of the monk. Finally, if the Barb can't KO the Monk in about a minute, all those bonuses go away, and unless he's Barb17, he's fatigued. Sucks. Well, we were talking about 20th level characters for a bit. Even pre-17, though, we're talking 10-12 damage a hit for the barbarian, typically. At level 16, a monk has an average of 75hp, plus Con bonus. So let's say a Con of 20, to be ridiculously generous. 155hp. If we assume the barbarian only hits twice a round, you go down in 7 or 8 rounds. Not seeing the problem. Just seeing that if I give the monk every advantage, he still loses.
Erak 06-20-06, 07:10 PM	Well if you are talking level 20 then it's going to be a really long fight. While pinning an opponent you cannot use a weapon against them......so no armor spikes or gauntlets so you need to beat 10/Magic damage reduction. So if are doing 10 to 12 damage per hit it's going to take a while. This is sort of a pointless conversation since all things are not equal......and we are beginning to delve into other abilities of each class and if we get into Spring Attack and movement at that level and Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist and all ther other things this is just going to turn into a ***** measuring contest. My contention is turning a Barbarian into a grappler is a waste of what a Barbarian can really do........while a Monk is much better tuned to becoming a grappler. That is opinion of course......as is all of this.
Tsuul 06-20-06, 07:19 PM	If the Barbie pins the monk, something the barb should have an advantage at. The barb only gets one attempt to damage his opponent with an opposed grapple per round while he is pinning an opponent (see, Pinning an Opponeent, 156). It is unclear whether the barb can make this attack in the same round that he has pinned his opponent. What hurts is that the Barb can't use any weapon (except for his opponents) while he is pinning the monk. The monk, while pinned, can't make any attacks at all. If the barbie doesn't go for the pin, then he can can take advantage of multiple melee attacks against the monk. The monk gets to do likewise. I'd like to see two non-grapple optomised builds (core only, no spells) builds crunch the numbers. I'm curious how close the monk can get to a barb in a bar brawl.
GhostStepper 06-20-06, 07:50 PM	If the Barbie pins the monk, something the barb should have an advantage at. The barb only gets one attempt to damage his opponent with an opposed grapple per round while he is pinning an opponent (see, Pinning an Opponeent, 156). It is unclear whether the barb can make this attack in the same round that he has pinned his opponent. What hurts is that the Barb can't use any weapon (except for his opponents) while he is pinning the monk. The monk, while pinned, can't make any attacks at all. If you pin your opponent you still get all your attacks to do damage. In the "if your pinning an opponent" section, notice after the options of what you can do it specifically says "(all described above)". In the above section is the part everyone has been quoting about using an attack action to do damage. So even while pinning you get your full attack.
Erak 06-20-06, 08:46 PM	I thought the same thing Ghost until I read it again after reading his post. Now I don't think so. It seems you are restricted to basically one action as described. It makes sense......when you see someone pinned in say the UFC you don't see "ground and pound" which represents a normal grapple......you see an arm bar or a choke.
ShinAkuma2 06-20-06, 09:09 PM	The Monk trades one +20 attack bonus for two +15s. Ahem...THREE 15s. Check the Monk's FoB chart again. With the disadvantage that he can never get higher than +15 for a base. When the barbarian is resisting the monk, he starts with a +5 advantage and stays there. The Monk starts with a 5 point penalty. That's great and all, but if 1 higher bonus is better than 3 lower bonuses, why do things like TWF, Rapid Shot, and FoB exist? Why are they such popular abilities? I assume you mean Improved Grapple, You assume wrong. If you're prone, you've got a -4 to grapple checks. and it's not "negated", it's matched. That's a nice spin to it, but the point stands. Your advantage is no longer there. The Barbarian takes a -4 to deal lethal damage in a grapple. Or he uses a light weapon, at a -4. Like armor spikes. So now he's losing his oh-so-awesome 5 point advantage in order to do a d3 or d4+str...and no Power Attacking with those spikes. Even with that penalty, and assuming the monk has IG and the barbarian doesn't, and that their base Strengths are the same, the Barbarian still has a better Grapple check. And those are big assumptions, all in the favor of the monk. That's great, you still don't seem to see that 20/20/20 is better than 21. Well, we were talking about 20th level characters for a bit. Even pre-17, though, we're talking 10-12 damage a hit for the barbarian, typically. At level 16, a monk has an average of 75hp, plus Con bonus. So let's say a Con of 20, to be ridiculously generous. 155hp. If we assume the barbarian only hits twice a round, you go down in 7 or 8 rounds. Not seeing the problem. You don't see that a Monk will be doing more average damage, and hitting at least as often (more attempts at full BAB is better than 1 attempt at a higher BAB, and I can't imagine a proof that shows otherwise), and so even with a Barb's DR and higher HD, it's still pretty much even? Heaven forbid the Monk has feats like Water Splitting Stone and Weakening Touch, taking away more of the Barbarian's advantages... EDIT: And as I had forgotten, if we're talking 20th level builds, there is that problem of DR 10/magic. Unless you've gotten magical spikes or a magic light weapon (not totally unrealistic, but also not the number one thought on most Barb players' minds), you'll be doing 0-2 points of damage a round. And you are honestly in the minority by taking Improved Grapple with a Barbarian. Barbarians normally concentrate on high weapon damage with the likes of Power Attack and Leap Attack. If you were really concerned about grappling stuff, wouldn't Clever Wrestling be better? Unless you a) fear things that are large or smaller (wherein IGrapple would be better), or b) don't want to get grappled, but don't want to escape when grappled, I can't really see Improved Grapple as a good choice for a Barb. I'm not criticising the choice...It's just that the feat is usually reserved for those who actually want to be grappling.
Tsuul 06-20-06, 11:30 PM	If you pin your opponent you still get all your attacks to do damage. In the "if your pinning an opponent" section, notice after the options of what you can do it specifically says "(all described above)"Good catch. It seems you do get all your attacks when you have an opponent pinned.
Bulletproof_Condom 06-21-06, 01:06 AM	Ahem...THREE 15s. Check the Monk's FoB chart again. Nono, 'cause a 20th-level monk flurries at +15/+15/+15/+10/+5, a 20th-level barbarian full attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5. They both have the +15/+10/+5 in common, so the barbarian is getting +20 while the monk is getting +15/+15. The monk is effectively trading the single +20 for two +15s. That's what he meant. Right?
mountainviking 06-21-06, 02:05 AM	Wow, another great debate! I'm thinking they're probably pretty evenly matched...whoever rolls luckiest wins the day ;) The way I read the rules, if you are pinning, you can't make unarmed attacks, but only have the opposed grapple option for damage. In a normal grapple (no pin yet) you could make full FoB without a grapple check, but -4, and then with the last attack go for the pin? Personally, I'm looking at a monk2/wizard4/enlightened fist3...and I'm not thinking about grappling against fighter types, but really like the idea of being able to dimension door next to the enemy wizard/leader type, who typically hangs back, and with Sun School Tactical at 12th, go right into grappling, going for a pin ASAP, and a sudden still scorching ray or fireburst to keep his help off...maybe even choke hold some day... :D
Quijenoth 06-21-06, 08:14 AM	This barbarian grappler concept comparison is quite laughable really :) Lets just comment on some of the basics of 20th level barbarian vs 20th level monk BAB Barbarian 20 +20, +15, +10, +5 (4) Monk 20 (FoB) +15, +15, +15, +10, +5 (5) Assuming Strength for both characters is 24 (Half-orc base 20 +4 from levels). As for dex based grappling monk, that idea is laughable since str is key for grapples and you lose any dex bonus to AC while participating in a grapple. Base Unarmed Damage Barbarian 20 1d3+1d4 armor spikes +7 (average 11, while raging 15) Monk 20 2d10 +7 (average 17) yes armor spikes add to unarmed damage during a grapple, it doesn’t replace it like has been mentioned above Assume Dexterity for both is 10 since during a grapple it’s ignored anyhow. The monk however would likely still have a high wisdom so we will go with 16. Also note that touch AC is all that really counts. AC Barbarian 20 15, 13 (Spiked Breastplate +5, while raging -2) Touch 10, 8! Monk 20 21 (Wisdom +3, Mage Armor scroll +4, level bonus +4) Touch 21 the reason for the mage armor scroll is to keep the balance between monk and barbarian equal, for the cost of a spiked breastplate the monk could purchase a mage armor scroll or 2. although it matters little Damage Reduction Barbarian 20 5/- Monk 20 10/magic Note: any intelligent monk will make full use of this 10/magic DR. using his unarmed attacks he can effectively sunder most magic weapons in a single blow since his fists are considered adamantine weapons. Con is important to both so we will keep it simple and say 10. raging the barbarian gains +8 (+4) Hit Points Barbarian 20 20d12 (average 120, while raging +80) Monk 20 20d8 (average 80) Natural Healing ability +40 hps Movement Barbarian 20 40 base (Breastplate reduces it to 30) Monk 20 90 base (plus slow fall any distance) movement may not seem much of a factor but it comes into play a lot during grapples since you can drag a pinned opponent around. Specials Barbarian: Rage lasts 3 + Con rounds but only usable once per encounter. Monk: Quivering Palm DC 23 will save or die for the barbarian. Barbarian will have a +12 will save (+18 while raging) Monk: Stunning Fist DC 23 will save or be stunned for 1 round. Barbarian will have a +12 will save (+18 while raging) Monk: Etherealness & dimension door both of these allow a monk to escape a grapple. In addition the monk can utilise this to game terrain advantage. For example a monk could dimension door to the top of a 200ft cliff. Wait for the barbarian to come get him then grapple, pin and throw himself off the cliff with the barbarian coming along for the ride. He then simply breaks the pin as a free action and slow falls while watching the barbarian plummet for 20d6 damage. Taking the above into account here is an analysis of the combat Opposed Grapple checks are Barbarian while raging (non-lethal damage) +31 vs +22 (+9) +26 vs +22 (+4) +21 vs +22 (-1) +16 vs +22 (-6) Barbarian while raging (lethal damage) +27 vs +22 (+5) +22 vs +22 (0) +17 vs +22 (-5) +12 vs +22 (-10) Monk (lethal damage) +22 vs +31 (-9) +22 vs +31 (-9) +22 vs +31 (-9) +17 vs +31 (-14) +12 vs +31 (-19) Looking at the basic numbers a monk will obviously lose a grapple unless he gets some really lucky rolls. However if a barbarian rages during a grapple the monk is likely to escape using etherealness or dimension door and wait for the rage to pass before getting in close again... So the Barbarians now out of rage and doing lethal damage +23 vs +22 (+1) +18 vs +22 (-4) +13 vs +22 (-9) +8 vs +22 (-14) Monk (lethal damage) +22 vs +27 (-5) +22 vs +27 (-5) +22 vs +27 (-5) +17 vs +27 (-10) +12 vs +27 (-15) Damage Assuming 50% of attacks hit for both combatants: The Barbarian will inflict 5 points of damage to the monk per attack (2 attacks equals 10 damage per round) The Monk will inflict 12 points of damage to the barbarian per attack (2.5 attacks equals 30 damage per round) The barbarian will take 12 rounds to kill the monk. Even if you gave the barbarian 100% hit ratio with full rage the barbarian still takes 6 rounds to kill the monk The Monk will take 7 rounds to kill the barbarian. Probably sooner considering he has a potential to deal 22 points of damage max in any single attack where as the barbarians max is only 8. The barbarian will have more to start with but due to the length of this type of fight his rage will end before the fight does. This means that if the monk waits out the rage he could kill the barbarian in only 4 rounds. Now lets look at the misconceptions of grappling 1st off, when you pin an opponent you CAN damage your opponent (as if an unarmed attack) but you cannot use a weapon. Since armor spikes deal damage on a successful opposed grapple check this means they still count. Its also good to note that if the monk fails to grapple the barbarian the spikes will deal the monk damage on his own turn. The barbarian may have to take a -4 to do lethal damage but it’s likely he’ll just do non-lethal then coup-de-grace the monk. Conclusion If you where to put both combatants into a grapple and see who drops first my money would be on the barbarian. However if you take into account proper combat etiquette and class abilities the money switches to the monk. Now if you look at feats things start getting a little messy The barbarian could specialize in grappling feats to keep pace with the monks’ free stunning fist, combat reflexes and improved trip but he would have to suffer in over fields such as versatility. The monk however remains solid on all levels and with the barbarians weak AC the monk can prevent the barbarian from taking the offensive on a grapple by tripping or stunning him when he tries to initiate the grapple. Finally there’s Prestige Classes. PrCs like Shou Disciple make the Monks BAB 17 while retaining full FoB and allowing FoB with martial weapons (reach weapon anyone)! Although this does prevent the monk the ability to gain perfect self. The Barbarian could go Frenzied berserker for more damage output and higher strength but again the DR would suffer. Then both could go with reaping mauler or other grapple specialist PrCs. In the end only the BAB difference helps the barbarian win over the monk but the monk is likely to have more options available to him to reduce the +5 BAB gap at 20th level and to increase his damage output.
tiluvias99 06-21-06, 11:12 AM	I have a question. Can't the Barbarian enchant his armor spikes fr additional damage? If he can, he should have 1d4+1d6+1d6+1d6+2d6+5 (+5 flaming shocking icy anarchic). Also note that the Barbarian could have a permanent Greater Magic Fang on his unarmed strikes, but the monk could do that too.
Leilond 06-21-06, 11:18 AM	Magic fang apply ONLY to natural attack and the unarmed attack of a barbarian ISN'T a natural attack. This has been discussed and repeated to death: unarmed attacks AREN'T natural attack. Nautural attacks are those that the creature has naturally, without the use of any feat, like claws and bites. Only the monk unarmed attack count as natural attack BECAUSE THE PHB SAY SO IN THE MONK PRIVILEGE DESCRIPTION. For this reason you could use "magic fang" on a monk unarmed strike but NOT on a barbarian one
Thorak 06-21-06, 12:17 PM	Ahem...THREE 15s. Check the Monk's FoB chart again. Like Bulletproof Condom correctly pointed out, if you look at the Barbarian's chart, you'll note that he gets a +15 too. So the difference is a +20 for the barbarian and a +15/+15 for the monk. That's great and all, but if 1 higher bonus is better than 3 lower bonuses, why do things like TWF, Rapid Shot, and FoB exist? Why are they such popular abilities? Because the Barbarian gets one of those lower bonuses too. So it's one higher bonus being better than two. And because of all the times you only get one action to use it. And because +5 is a huge difference when it comes to opposed checks. And perhaps you've missed all the threads that prove conclusively that TWF is weaker than using a two-handed weapon. You assume wrong. If you're prone, you've got a -4 to grapple checks. You do realize that everything that makes monks bad at Grapple makes them bad at Tripping too, right? You've got less than a 50% chance of tripping the Barbarian, and if you fail, he gets to trip you. With a much higher chance of success. So now he's losing his oh-so-awesome 5 point advantage in order to do a d3 or d4+str...and no Power Attacking with those spikes. Armor spikes do a d6, and can be enchanted. And I haven't mentioned Power Attack yet, so I find it odd that you'd bring it up at all. That's great, you still don't seem to see that 20/20/20 is better than 21. I do when that assumes the Monk is entirely grapple-based, the Barbarian has completely ignored grappling as an option, and it's really only 20/20 compared to 21. And that the monk has a garbage AC and HP compared to the Barbarian, because they haven't boosted their Dex, Con, and Wis too high while focusing so much on Strength. You don't see that a Monk will be doing more average damage, and hitting at least as often (more attempts at full BAB is better than 1 attempt at a higher BAB, and I can't imagine a proof that shows otherwise), and so even with a Barb's DR and higher HD, it's still pretty much even? Heaven forbid the Monk has feats like Water Splitting Stone and Weakening Touch, taking away more of the Barbarian's advantages... Okay, let's show something. Let's assume the barbarian wasn't an idiot and took Improved Grapple. Because otherwise, he'd get a Ring of Free Action and be immune to grapples altogether. And let's assume we're not even 20th level, so I don't get the best rage, only Mighty Rage, for +6 Strength. So he's got at least a +8 advantage over you on grapple checks. Now, let's do some math. On any given grapple check, if he rolls a 12 or higher, he wins even if you roll a 20 (higher grapple check wins ties, remember). That's 45% of all rolls. Of the remaining 55%, if you roll a 9 or lower, you lose even if he rolls a 1. That's 45% of the remaining 55%. That's another 24.75%, meaning you have thus far lost 69.75% of all checks. Now, the ones where you roll 10 or higher and he rolls 11 or lower. This is a bit more complicated. Let's do it point by point. He has 11 numbers he can roll at any given time, 1-11. The 12+ were already covered above as auto-wins, remember. So if you roll a 10, he loses on a 1. 1/11 chance. If you roll an 11, he loses on a 1-2. 2/11. And so on. If we assume 11 cases in each roll you have, out of 11 numbers you could roll, we have 121 cases. And out of those, 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11 lose for the Barbarian. That's 66. Meaning 55 were won by you. That's 54.54% you lost, here. And that's out of the remaining 30.25%. 54.54% of that is 16.50% So, in total, a +8 difference means you lose the opposed grapple 86.25% of the time. Do you see the point, yet? EDIT: And as I had forgotten, if we're talking 20th level builds, there is that problem of DR 10/magic. Unless you've gotten magical spikes or a magic light weapon (not totally unrealistic, but also not the number one thought on most Barb players' minds), you'll be doing 0-2 points of damage a round. Not having a light backup weapon is ridiculously stupid, for exactly this reason. I can't imagine a character not having one, especially if we're talking post 10th level. And you are honestly in the minority by taking Improved Grapple with a Barbarian. Barbarians normally concentrate on high weapon damage with the likes of Power Attack and Leap Attack. If you were really concerned about grappling stuff, wouldn't Clever Wrestling be better? Unless you a) fear things that are large or smaller (wherein IGrapple would be better), or b) don't want to get grappled, but don't want to escape when grappled, I can't really see Improved Grapple as a good choice for a Barb. If I make a melee character, dealing with grapples is critical, otherwise you can get taken out of a fight too easily. If I didn't want Improved Grapple, I'd get Close-quarters Fighting, in which case the point would be moot because he'd be hitting the monk every time the monk tried to grapple in the first place. And still likely able to break the grapple on his turn, even if you get through. If you want to make a grappler, a monk is a bad choice. A full BAB class will always do better. These comparison have been assuming the monk is built for grapple and the barbarian generally isn't, and the barbarian is still coming out on top. I guarantee if I give my barbarian enchanted armor spikes or daggers, and focus on grappling, he'll make mincemeat of any monk he manages to snag. I'm not criticising the choice...It's just that the feat is usually reserved for those who actually want to be grappling.[/QUOTE]
Quijenoth 06-21-06, 01:32 PM	I have a question. Can't the Barbarian enchant his armor spikes fr additional damage? If he can, he should have 1d4+1d6+1d6+1d6+2d6+5 (+5 flaming shocking icy anarchic). Also note that the Barbarian could have a permanent Greater Magic Fang on his unarmed strikes, but the monk could do that too. never consider magic items and spells in a balanced face off - it just adds too many variables to be worth the time and effort. for example a resistance 20 vs fire, electricity, cold, chaos cloak will remove the additional damage you listed. For every magical attack theres a magical protection. but if you must, remember the monks fists are considered adamantine weapons, so if that armor is giving you some hassle just smash it to pieces.
NullAshton 06-21-06, 02:12 PM	Magic fang apply ONLY to natural attack and the unarmed attack of a barbarian ISN'T a natural attack. This has been discussed and repeated to death: unarmed attacks AREN'T natural attack. Nautural attacks are those that the creature has naturally, without the use of any feat, like claws and bites. Only the monk unarmed attack count as natural attack BECAUSE THE PHB SAY SO IN THE MONK PRIVILEGE DESCRIPTION. For this reason you could use "magic fang" on a monk unarmed strike but NOT on a barbarian one From the SRD, "The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon." This is from Magic Fang. Thus, magic fang will affect a fist just as well as a claw, even on a barbarian. It does not, however, allow you to hit people with your fist and deal lethal damage like a monk.
Erak 06-21-06, 02:15 PM	Armor Spikes as well as Gauntlets are problamatic as they are both listed as a weapon (sunderable) and as armor (not sunderable). So when it is convienent users of same will argue they are one or the other as best suits whatever arguement they are trying to win.
Thorak 06-21-06, 04:41 PM	but if you must, remember the monks fists are considered adamantine weapons, so if that armor is giving you some hassle just smash it to pieces. Except that you can't sunder armor. And Sunder is yet another opposed attack roll, which the monk stands little chance of winning. Even if they have Improved Sunder, and are avoiding the AoO. From the SRD, "The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon." This is from Magic Fang. Thus, magic fang will affect a fist just as well as a claw, even on a barbarian. It does not, however, allow you to hit people with your fist and deal lethal damage like a monk. Except that a normal person's fists aren't natural weapons. That quote is an error, it contradicts the primary sources that define unarmed strikes and natural weapons, and thus is wrong. Magic Weapon, however, would affect an unarmed strike, so it's sort of a moot point. Armor Spikes as well as Gauntlets are problamatic as they are both listed as a weapon (sunderable) and as armor (not sunderable). So when it is convienent users of same will argue they are one or the other as best suits whatever arguement they are trying to win. Armor spikes you could arguably sunder, though the armor itself wouldn't be harmed. Gauntlets, however, are weapons, period, and are always sunderable.
GhostStepper 06-21-06, 04:56 PM	Assuming Strength for both characters is 24 (Half-orc base 20 +4 from levels). I don’t care what the prat above said about a dex based grappling monk, that idea is laughable since str is key for grapples and you lose any dex bonus to AC while participating in a grapple. The assumtion that the monk has the same strength as the barbarian isnt very realistic considering the monk's MAD. If you want to be realistic, do a point buy and construct both classes the way they would actually be run. The barbarian WILL have a higher strength the the monk even without rage since, unlike the monk, Stre is his main stat. Assume Dexterity for both is 10 since during a grapple it’s ignored anyhow. The monk however would likely still have a high wisdom so we will go with 16. Also note that touch AC is all that really counts. Thats not how the grapple rules work. You lose your Dex bonus to AC against attacks outside the grapple, not against creatures your grappling. Note: any intelligent monk will make full use of this 10/magic DR. using his unarmed attacks he can effectively sunder most magic weapons in a single blow since his fists are considered adamantine weapons. To sunder he would have to win an opposed attack roll. The barbarian's BAB is higher and his strength is way higher. The monk most likely wont be sundering anything. Specials Barbarian: Rage lasts 3 + Con rounds but only usable once per encounter. Monk: Quivering Palm DC 23 will save or die for the barbarian. Barbarian will have a +12 will save (+18 while raging) Monk: Stunning Fist DC 23 will save or be stunned for 1 round. Barbarian will have a +12 will save (+18 while raging) Quivering Palm and Stunning fist arent Will saves they are Fort saves. The barbarian, with his big Con score and high Fort base save will save almost every time. QP and SF are practically worthless against a level 20 Barbarian. 1st off, when you pin an opponent you CAN damage your opponent (as if an unarmed attack) but you cannot use a weapon. Since armor spikes deal damage on a successful opposed grapple check this means they still count. Its also good to note that if the monk fails to grapple the barbarian the spikes will deal the monk damage on his own turn. The barbarian may have to take a -4 to do lethal damage but it’s likely he’ll just do non-lethal then coup-de-grace the monk. If the barbarian is using spiked armor, he's probably got spiked gauntlets. he would never have to worry about taking a penalty to deal lethal damage. However if you take into account proper combat etiquette and class abilities the money switches to the monk. The monk's class abilities wont help him at all. The 'off the cliff' tactic wont work and you only get one Dimenaion door ability per day. Stunning Fist and Qivering Palm are fort saves and thus worthless against the barbarian. The only trick that will help the monk is etherealness and that in no way would help the monk actually defeat the barbarian, only run away. Now if you look at feats things start getting a little messy The barbarian could specialize in grappling feats to keep pace with the monks’ free stunning fist, Once again, stunning fist is almost worthless. Youll never land it in a gapple with the monk's poor BAB and the -4 for a melee in a grapple and even if it does land the barb's Fort save is his highest. The monk however remains solid on all levels and with the barbarians weak AC the monk can prevent the barbarian from taking the offensive on a grapple by tripping or stunning him when he tries to initiate the grapple. The monk will not get his trip in regularly because the barbarian has higher strength, and when he fails the barbarian gets to trip him. And once again, stunning fist is even less likely to be effective. In the end only the BAB difference helps the barbarian win over the monk but the monk is likely to have more options available to him to reduce the +5 BAB gap at 20th level and to increase his damage output. The barb will not only have a higher BAB but a higher strength if you used the same point buy for the monk and barb. The only good ability the monk has that is of any real use in a grapple is etherealness and that wont him actually win, just get away. I suggest you recalculate some of your numbers with more accurate information: Stat out both characters abilities how they really would be using the same point buy and look up how the monks abilities actually work before assuming that they would useful (supernatural abilities take a standard action, SF and QP are Fort saves, etc...)
starfire311 06-21-06, 05:15 PM	The assumtion that the monk has the same strength as the barbarian isnt very realistic considering the monk's MAD. FWIW, in the current game I am playing I started as a barbarian with 28 point-buy... stats were Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 I died a few times then re-rolled as a Monk... stats were Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 8 Pretty much the same as the barb except barb had +2 str and monk had +2 Int and Wis. Also for themonk I put all my level bumps in strength and for stat boosting items I treat strength as the most important stat. So when not raging the barbarian will only have a +2 strength on the monk. I still think a Barbarian will own a monk in a grapple, especially the barbarian I was playing, he specialized in grappling. There are tasks a monk can do better than a barbarian, while grappling may not be one of them, but getting into position to grapple a mage is one.
GhostStepper 06-21-06, 06:10 PM	Also for themonk I put all my level bumps in strength and for stat boosting items I treat strength as the most important stat. While it may have made sense in your case i dont know if its fair to say its the norm to assume that the average monk spends the same amount of resources boosting strength. In my experience, the monk spends so much on bracers of armor, dex and wis boosing items, and amulet of mighty fists that they have only a fraction of the resources the barb has actually dedicated to str. I think the most fair way to demonstrate this is to comletely stat out, equipment and all, the monk and barb side by side and see how much the monk has to give up just to get strength that approaches the barbarian's. There are tasks a monk can do better than a barbarian, while grappling may not be one of them, but getting into position to grapple a mage is one. This is true and the monk can be a pretty fun class to play as. Im not trying to knock the monk overall, im just in agreement with the others who support the barbarian in a straight up grapple.
Thorak 06-21-06, 09:18 PM	There are tasks a monk can do better than a barbarian, while grappling may not be one of them, but getting into position to grapple a mage is one. Never said otherwise. Monks are great at taking out enemy spellcasters, and other fragile characters like rogues and archer-types. High touch AC, all good saves, innate SR, ridiculously fast movement, all these translate as anti-caster abilities. Combine with the fact that a monk is inferior in every way but movement to a full BAB melee-class, with regards to melee combat, and it becomes clear that monks are anti-casters, not melee types. They can skirmish a bit if need be, much like a rogue, but not a whole lot. Flurry isn't as good as a full BAB. Unarmed damage and Ki strike aren't as good as magical weapons. A monk's AC can only match a normal melee type's by spending far more on magical items. Their d8HD isn't useful. And MAD means they can't have it all; either their AC, HP, and/or damage and attacking will be crap. To maximize those, the monk needs a high Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. A Barbarian, comparatively, only needs a 16 Dexterity with magical items, to max out a breastplate/mithral full plate, as high a Strength as possible, and as high a Con as they can afford after that. One less stat, and one with a hard cap on usefulness. People look at the monk, and see things like Flurry and such, and mistakenly think the monk must be good in combat. These things make them better than other 3/4 BAB classes, in general, but still inferior to full BAB classes. They're almost, but not quite, as good as the real thing.
starfire311 06-22-06, 08:34 AM	People look at the monk, and see things like Flurry and such, and mistakenly think the monk must be good in combat. These things make them better than other 3/4 BAB classes, in general, but still inferior to full BAB classes. They're almost, but not quite, as good as the real thing. I agree completly here, IMO BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5 is better than +15/+15/+15/+10/+5.... this makes me wonder why they made the feat slashing fury because all it does is turn the former into the later.
Thorak 06-22-06, 09:01 AM	I agree completly here, IMO BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5 is better than +15/+15/+15/+10/+5.... this makes me wonder why they made the feat slashing fury because all it does is turn the former into the later. Slashing Flurry actually lets you make a Full Attack of +15/+15/+10/+5/+0; it's one extra attack at highest BAB, and all attacks take a -5 including that one. It also lets you make two attacks, at +15/+10, as a standard action. It's great if your to-hit is high and the enemy's AC is low. Because you always have the option to attack normally with full bonuses. Monks don't have that option.
starfire311 06-22-06, 09:17 AM	Slashing Flurry actually lets you make a Full Attack of +15/+15/+10/+5/+0; it's one extra attack at highest BAB, and all attacks take a -5 including that one. It also lets you make two attacks, at +15/+10, as a standard action. It's great if your to-hit is high and the enemy's AC is low. Because you always have the option to attack normally with full bonuses. Monks don't have that option. you are correct, I forgot slashing flurry makes you worse than a monk. In essence for slashing flurry you are taking a -5 to your 1st attack to get an additional attack at your full BAB -20.... is that extra attack at +0 really worth a feat and a -5 to your best attack. the standard attack option of slashing flurry is probably what makes it decent... I can see +15/+10 being better than +20. Without doing the actually numbers I would say that weapon focus is probably an overall better feat than slashing flurry, and that is the 1st feat in the chain. BTW I apologize for going off-topic, and no SA+flurry of blows is not too powerful, I dont even think I would call it powerful.