Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nathreet 04-16-08, 03:09 PM	I noticed that reloading a sling is a move action, and that the rapid reload feat only applies to crossbows. So is there any way to pull off a full attack using a sling? Option 2: Rapid shot works with ranged weapons. That means bows and javelins are okay, since they are listed under "ranged weapons" (javelins aren't made to be used in melee, and you get a -4 penalty if you do). Spears and hammers may both be used in melee and thrown, but they are listed in the other 3 categories. Do they also count as ranged weapons for the purpose of rapid shot?
mplindustries 04-16-08, 07:01 PM	I noticed that reloading a sling is a move action, and that the rapid reload feat only applies to crossbows. So is there any way to pull off a full attack using a sling? Homebrew a feat. Or, make the very easy and obvious houserule that either Rapid Reload or Quickdraw can apply to slings. Option 2: Rapid shot works with ranged weapons. That means bows and javelins are okay, since they are listed under "ranged weapons" (javelins aren't made to be used in melee, and you get a -4 penalty if you do). Spears and hammers may both be used in melee and thrown, but they are listed in the other 3 categories. Do they also count as ranged weapons for the purpose of rapid shot? Technically? By RAW? No, spears and hammers do not count. Even javelins are questionable. However, it is very reasonable and easy to houserule, as I'm sure most people do, that any ranged attack can take advantage of rapid shot.
Nathreet 04-16-08, 09:08 PM	Mmm, I wanted to avoid a houserule, since I'm doing this to tweak/optimize a character and houseruling such would be unfair. Might be sub-optimal at high levels, but I'll figure that out later. Are you sure javelins aren't ranged weapons for the purpose of rapid shot? They're listed right under "ranged weapons". I know shurikens count, and they're thrown. But they're also ammo so maybe that's different. The rapid shot feat says, "ranged weapon". One more thing. Can I use TWF with thrown weapons? TWF and rapid shot on thrown ranged weapons? (-4 AB, 1 extra off-hand attack, 1 extra main hand attack). I know monks can flurry, TWF (with an off-hand monk weapon not used as one of the flurry attacks) and rapid shot a shuriken (the only ranged monk weapon), and that's legal. But, again, shuriken. Can I get something from the rules or FAQ on this? EDIT: Nevermind, I found it in the FAQ. I can TWF and rapid shot at the same time, but I'll need quick draw to draw the 3rd weapon. So foo on you.
RavenDrake 04-17-08, 09:51 AM	A ranged weapon for the purposes of the feat is any weapon with which you can make a ranged attack, that includine Projectile Weapons(which are ranged only) and thrown weapons(some of which can be used in melee). That includes any thrown weapon like a hammer, spear, javalin, shuriken, dagger, or similar. Heck, a druid with Rapidshot can fling an extra firebolt from Produce Flame as part of a full attack action. With Quickdraw you can draw and throw as many thrown weapons as you have attacks with one hand(presuming they are one-handed weapons). That includes all attacks in a full attack action, even bonus attacks from effects like Haste or the Rapid Shot feat.
mplindustries 04-17-08, 10:01 AM	A ranged weapon for the purposes of the feat is any weapon with which you can make a ranged attack, that includine Projectile Weapons(which are ranged only) and thrown weapons(some of which can be used in melee). That includes any thrown weapon like a hammer, spear, javalin, shuriken, dagger, or similar. Heck, a druid with Rapidshot can fling an extra firebolt from Produce Flame as part of a full attack action. Unfortunately, this is false. From the "Melee and Ranged Weapon" subsection of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm): Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. (Emphasis Mine) Is it stupid? Yes. Is it RAW? Also yes. To be a "ranged weapon," and not just a weapon you are making a ranged attack with, it must be ineffective in melee. This is why, as I said earlier, the javelin is questionable, as it requires you to define "effective in melee." If "effective in melee" means you can attack with it at all, then the javelin is not a ranged weapon. If it means you can attack with it and not suffer penalties, then the javelin counts. Regardless, again, as I said, I think its a very reasonable houserule to do as you've done and say, "Any weapon capable of making a ranged attack is a ranged weapon." I think, most likely, the vast majority of players houserule this without even knowing they're doing so.
RavenDrake 04-17-08, 10:29 AM	That is the most pedantic, asinine thing I've ever read. And it's complete garbage when you consider that almost every single instance of Ranged Attacks in the rules specifically refer to using "Ranged Weapons". If we go by your interpretation, since it has to be ineffective in melee to be a Ranged Weapon, then we can't actually MAKE Ranged Attacks with weapons like Daggers, since they're not Ranged Weapons. And, of course, these non-existant thrown weapons would be in-elligble to be caught by Deflect Arrows, as it specifies only being able to catch "Ranged Weapons", which of course means that a crossbow bolt traveling some 120 mph can be caught on the wing, as it were, but a hammer chucked from 10ft away couldn't, since it's not a "Ranged Weapon'. Not to mention the Glossary entries expressly state that ALL thrown weapons are Ranged Weapons, towit: "thrown weapon: A ranged weapon that a character hurls at an enemy, such as a spear, as opposed to a projectile weapon." PHB pg 314. It's utterly rediculous to try to insist that this ruling is "RAW" and expect it to have any merit when it absolutely would corrupt every instance of the rules which apply to it. Regardless of what that one, individual line may say about Ranged Weapons, the preponderance of evidence in the rest of the book says that Ranged Attacks are made with Ranged Weapons, and that if you're making a Ranged Attack, you're using a Ranged Weapon, even if it CAN also be used in melee.
Merestil Haye 04-17-08, 11:57 AM	Unfortunately, this is false. From the "Melee and Ranged Weapon" subsection of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm):Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.Is it stupid? Yes. Is it RAW? Also yes. To be a "ranged weapon," and not just a weapon you are making a ranged attack with, it must be ineffective in melee.You're parsing it wrongly. You are reading it as if it said "A ranged weapon is a thrown weapon that is ineffective in melee or a projectile weapon that is ineffective in melee." That's not what it says. There is no indication that the phrase "that is ineffective in melee" applies to thrown weapons. A ranged weapon is one which meets one of the following criteria. It is a thrown weapon. It is a projectile weapon that is ineffective in melee.The javelin is a thrown weapon, and therefore a ranged weapon. That it is effective in melee does not disqualify it from being a ranged weapon. The easiest way to tell a ranged weapon is that it has a range increment in the weapon table. All weapons with a range increment in the table are either thrown weapons or projectile weapons - bows, crossbows or slings - that are ineffective in melee.
mplindustries 04-18-08, 02:01 AM	You're parsing it wrongly. You are reading it as if it said "A ranged weapon is a thrown weapon that is ineffective in melee or a projectile weapon that is ineffective in melee." That's not what it says. There is no indication that the phrase "that is ineffective in melee" applies to thrown weapons. I like this answer. We'll go with that. Now, another, semi-related problem. Namely, "thrown weapons" are rigidly defined so that: 1) No weapons published outside of the PHB are technically "thrown weapons" (Sorry boomerangs) 2) Assuming there is something to get around that, "thrown weapons" are still "thrown weapons" whether you are actually throwing them or not, so there is a lot of room for abuse with the Master Thrower. Oh, for reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm): Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. PS - I want to point out that I in no way advocate playing by these stupid RAW problems. I actually just enjoy pointing out the folly of RAW, and I fully encourage extensive houserules.
RavenDrake 04-18-08, 02:32 AM	Again, there is absolutely no reason to be so pedantic about it. It in no way claims that that the ONLY thrown weapons are those listed, that's simply a list of the available thrown weapons in the Player's Handbook. Just like the List of Sorcerer/Wizard spells is ONLY a list of the spells in the Player's Handbook, as new books come out new items will be added to the list. Also, for the master thrower nonsense, only two of thier abilties (Deadeye shot and Two with One blow) do not explicitly refer to throwing or making a ranged attack, which deflates much of your point. And, frankly, I don't see the harm in letting those two apply to melee or ranged combat, if you're THAT deadset on RAW, since they can't benefit from any of thier other class abilities if they're NOT making ranged attacks.
Nathreet 04-18-08, 07:09 PM	Hey, so I got a related question now. I started to put the build together, focusing on the high attack bonus a halfling gets (size + dex + throwing). Then I realized I went too far to one extreme; his damage is too low. In fact, making str his primary stat and dex 2nd would make him more powerful. Almost seems pointless to even get a halfling for the AB bonuses now. So how do I get a nice high damage on multiple thrown attacks? Weapon spec helps a little. Favored enemy helps sometimes. Mixing in rogue levels adds a lot of SA damage, but it's hard to get an SA trigger and he takes a hit to AB. Improved init plus his dex would mean he could find a flat-footed target in round 1, but he wouldn't have much after that. Maybe he could take a 3 level dip into rogue (2d6 SA, +2 BAB out of 3), then go fighter from there or another 2 level ranger dip first (favored enemy, early rapid shot w/o need for PBS). I'm not gonna worry about high levels. Not yet anyway. I wanted to make this a front-loaded build. Any ideas?
RavenDrake 04-18-08, 11:05 PM	There are a couple of options. If your DM allows it the Thug Fighter class ability variant(In Unearthed Arcana, also part of the SRD) trades in the Fighter bonus feats and heavier armour proficiencies for some new skills and more skill points, and Sneak attack damage at the same progression rate as a Rogue, meaning you can get the Sneak Attack bonus without having to give up BAB. Adding Telling Blow(PHB2, which lets you deal sneak attack damage on a successful critical hit) with a weapon with an expanded critical range (like keen daggers) can increase the chances of dealing Sneak Attack damage. Taking Throw Anything(CWar) and throwing Keen Khukri mean you'll threatening a crit and sneak attack damage on any attack roll of 15 or higher. Conversely, going Scout and taking Manyshot and Greater Manyshot(XPH, also in the SRD) means you can gain the Skirmish bonus on your ranged attacks and still get multiple attacks per round(with Greater manyshot your skirmish damage will apply to all of your attacks, and you can attack multiple targets) all while actively avoiding your foes, a win-win. Greater Manyshot is also good for Sneak Attack damage, so it may be worth picking up for a thug/rogue ranged attacker as well. For bonus damage, picking up Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Shot, and Ranged Weapon Mastery nets you +7 damage on each attack(within 30ft), and can be achieved by 10th level for a standard fighter. If you're more interested in dealing damage with a high strength, grabbing the Brutal Throw feat(CAdv) will let you use your Strength modifier for your attack rolls for thrown weapons.
mplindustries 04-19-08, 02:40 AM	Hey, so I got a related question now. I started to put the build together, focusing on the high attack bonus a halfling gets (size + dex + throwing). Then I realized I went too far to one extreme; his damage is too low. In fact, making str his primary stat and dex 2nd would make him more powerful. Almost seems pointless to even get a halfling for the AB bonuses now. So how do I get a nice high damage on multiple thrown attacks? Weapon spec helps a little. Favored enemy helps sometimes. Mixing in rogue levels adds a lot of SA damage, but it's hard to get an SA trigger and he takes a hit to AB. Improved init plus his dex would mean he could find a flat-footed target in round 1, but he wouldn't have much after that. Maybe he could take a 3 level dip into rogue (2d6 SA, +2 BAB out of 3), then go fighter from there or another 2 level ranger dip first (favored enemy, early rapid shot w/o need for PBS). I'm not gonna worry about high levels. Not yet anyway. I wanted to make this a front-loaded build. Any ideas? Here, these builds are optimized, probably a bit too theoretically for actual play (and one is gestalt...), but I think you can see the general idea of how to get awesome damage out of throwing, and hopefully pick something useful out of them. This was the first one (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14572051&postcount=14), someone decided to call it 52 Shuriken pick-up. Here is the gestalt one (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14581132&postcount=14) with more awesomeness, but obviously, you could only pull off half of it. Oddly enough, those are both the 14th post. Eerie. And if you were wondering, nobody actually expanded on those builds, though I don't know why.
Nathreet 04-19-08, 09:08 AM	I'll keep the suggestions given in mind, but are there any more options with less bookage? I mean, this is a theoretical build but I'd like to keep it as an option in the back of my mind if I need something for a real game.