Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wizard 02-04-05, 01:41 PM	If you're pinning an opponent, do they count as prone? And if not, is there any way to make them prone?
TrustTymora 02-04-05, 02:58 PM	Pinned does not necessarily mean prone. I would think it depends on the status prior to starting the grapple. If you first tripped someone and then started a grapple I would be inclined to rule that you would be getting down on the ground to grapple with the prone person. If you were able to pin them then they would be pinned and prone. TT
Wizard 02-04-05, 03:09 PM	That sounds about right to me. What I think I'd rule, were I the DM, is that if you pinned someone (standing up), then on a later attack, you could make a grapple check to make both of you prone (maybe just the enemy? Stand on him or something?). Just looking to drop the AC of opponents my animal companion grapples some more. :)
mostholy2 02-04-05, 03:18 PM	I think that the move option outlined in the PHB might cover the option of forcing your grappled opponent to become prone, although it does cost a standard action to accomplish.
TrustTymora 02-04-05, 03:19 PM	You don't have to be pinning an opponent to move them. On your turn if you are already grappling you could attempt to move the grapple to the prone position by winning the grapple check. If they were pinned you would get a +4 to do the same thing. TT
Ilium 02-04-05, 03:28 PM	That sounds about right to me. What I think I'd rule, were I the DM, is that if you pinned someone (standing up), then on a later attack, you could make a grapple check to make both of you prone (maybe just the enemy? Stand on him or something?). Just looking to drop the AC of opponents my animal companion grapples some more. :) This is exactly what I allow in my game. Once you have the foe pinned you can trip them with another opposed grapple check (on which you get +4). It's your choice whether you remain grappled (in which case you are prone, too) or escape the grapple automatically. I also have a feat that lets you do damage and drop the opponent in whatever square you want when tripping, for martial-arts-throwing fun.
Wizard 02-04-05, 04:14 PM	I like Ilium's rule a lot...I think I may implement it in my game.
Stuntman 02-04-05, 04:24 PM	You have to separately pin your opponent (while grappling) and trip him in order to make him both pinned and prone.
mvincent 02-04-05, 04:44 PM	Good discussion. I reckon the rules writers didn't really consider pinned stacking with prone, but I can't see a rule that disallows it. 1) I don't think you would have to be prone in order to wrestle or pin a prone opponent (at the very least it seems like you could be kneeling) but that might be a DM call. 2) You can move as a standard action in a grapple (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you). Although dropping prone is a free action, I could see it being treated as moving for this ruling. 3) Since you can make most regular attacks against an opponent (at -4) while grappling, trip does indeed look like a fair option. Whether this implies that you 'move' with your opponent (down to the ground) or not seems like another DM call not addressed in the rules.
TrustTymora 02-04-05, 11:39 PM	Good discussion. I reckon the rules writers didn't really consider pinned stacking with prone, but I can't see a rule that disallows it. 1) I don't think you would have to be prone in order to wrestle or pin a prone opponent (at the very least it seems like you could be kneeling) but that might be a DM call. 2) You can move as a standard action in a grapple (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you). Although dropping prone is a free action, I could see it being treated as moving for this ruling. 3) Since you can make most regular attacks against an opponent (at -4) while grappling, trip does indeed look like a fair option. Whether this implies that you 'move' with your opponent (down to the ground) or not seems like another DM call not addressed in the rules. #1 Agreed, I don't think it is clearly covered so DM's call. #2 I wouldn't allow the free action drop prone as it is no longer in the context that the free action was written for. #3 Agreed, not really covered so DM call. TT