Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SterlingHeart PaganPummel 01-20-05, 01:08 AM	armor? A rulebook source would be great, other than the one item creation in arms guide, which seems too general (using the division of cost and DC check and the DC 20 masterork additional 'item' seems silly for all itmes). How many days would it take an armor smith to create a functional suite of chainmail? how about if it was masterwork? The dwarf PC in our group has made a downpayment with the smith NPC, but I haven't givien him a solid answer when the suite is finished.
Beamup 01-20-05, 10:30 AM	To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps. 1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). 2. Find the DC from the table below. 3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials. 4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week. If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again. Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces. Creating Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials. The most obvious place is generally the place to look...
SterlingHeart PaganPummel 01-20-05, 10:48 AM	I know that thats what I was quaoting above, but that does not in any way really refelct how long a suite of armor might take...the rules you listed are a catch all for ANY items...it would take as long to make a masterwork gold doorknob as a masterwork suite of chainmail....not very realistic for down time in the campaign
weaponsmith 01-20-05, 12:45 PM	there's ways to spend up forging.. but just have longer down times... i think i remember that i figured it takes about 9-12 months to make full plate if your an avg guy...
Beamup 01-20-05, 12:50 PM	I know that thats what I was quaoting above, but that does not in any way really refelct how long a suite of armor might take...the rules you listed are a catch all for ANY items...it would take as long to make a masterwork gold doorknob as a masterwork suite of chainmail....not very realistic for down time in the campaign If you don't like the rules, write your own. That's what they are, period.
The Legendary Two Sandals 01-20-05, 01:04 PM	Remember in the game you are not an aveage guy your not even an above aveage guy you are a hero thus many laws of time and space do not apply to you. And having really long creation times just slows the game down especially because it makes your party have to split into smaller groups.
tarkin 01-20-05, 01:10 PM	1) Most people solve the problem by having the armorer take one level of Wizard and read a scroll of Fabricate. Nice DM's make anvils of Fabricate (36,000 gp but worth it for 1/day item). 2) You can dencrease the time by working faster. This raises your DC. If you make the Higher DC, you use it to calculate the total time it takes. If you fail, you have failed.
BlackFiend 01-20-05, 03:44 PM	armor? A rulebook source would be great, other than the one item creation in arms guide, which seems too general (using the division of cost and DC check and the DC 20 masterork additional 'item' seems silly for all itmes). How many days would it take an armor smith to create a functional suite of chainmail? how about if it was masterwork? The dwarf PC in our group has made a downpayment with the smith NPC, but I haven't givien him a solid answer when the suite is finished. I'm bored. So here is a few ball parks to use. Dealing with Chainmail Simplifying...You have 3 types of Crafters: A. Decent (5 Ranks of Craft) B. Good (10 Ranks of Craft) C. Great (15 Ranks of Craft) We will allow them take 10. (You aren't allowed to though, since there is a failure chance, but we will allow this since they are "professional NPC crafters" and we are simplifying things a bit.) The DC to make Chainmail is just 15. Crafter A = ~7 Weeks to make the armor Crafter B = 5 Weeks Crafter C = 4 Weeks For master work Chainmail: Crafter A = 13 weeks (MW component) + 7 Weeks (Chainmail) = 20 Weeks Crafter B = 10 weeks (MW component) + 5 Weeks (Chainmail) = 15 Weeks Crafter B = 8 weeks (MW component) + 4 Weeks (Chainmail) = 12 Weeks TOTAL COST OF MW CHAINMAIL = 450gp ..Crafter A is earning about 22.5gp per week at this task ..Crafter B is earning about 30gp per week at this task ..Crafter C is earning about 37.5gp per week at this task
SterlingHeart PaganPummel 01-21-05, 12:30 AM	thanx those times sound reasonable....having two assistants might drop the time down a bit, say by 1/3 (they might get in the way if they try and speed it up any more, since they are probably average to the smiths 'good' skill rating...I'll tell him 10 weeks for the Masterwork chain)
Wharin 01-21-05, 01:25 AM	Actually, i believe that you *are* allowed to take 10 in crafting as you are not being rushed or in a dangerous position. Now if there was a mobster threatening to kill you if you dont pick up the pace or whatever, then maybe taking 10 wouldnt be optional, but under normal circumstances, yes, it would be allowed. To help you along in smithing consider the following to: 1) Wield Skill, its like a 1st level spell that grants +10 to any skill, that 10^2 could go a long way (i think this is in the Magic of Faerun), i forget which class can cast this spell though. 2) Anvils of Weapon/Armorsmithing, they also provide *huge* bonuses to their respective craft. And when you voluntarily raise the DC by 10, 20 etc, that can really really really pick up the pace. These are found in Races of Stone. 3) Assistants, for each assistant you get a +2 to your check, get 5 of them and thats another +10 which if you raise the DC by 10, it can really spead along the process. 4) you might want to talk to your DM about Adamantine tools. As they ignore hardness, maybe you could talk your DM into houseruling that they can like double your progression if you are successful or something. But this would need to be houseruled, as there is no RAW rules concerning addy tools
Beamup 01-21-05, 09:25 AM	Wharin is correct. You can take 10 even when there is a penalty for failure. You just can't take 20.
BlackFiend 01-21-05, 10:29 AM	The guy asking the question appears to be the DM, not the player. We are discussing a typical forge in a town or city making a custom suit of chainmail armor for a player. The spell Wieldskill is useless in this area. Wieldskill's duration expires too soon. He would have to be in a constant state of it for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Crafting an item is measured initially in weeks, not hours. It could be measured in days, but the formula is off. It will take more time to do it in days then weeks. As for Taking 10....If you allow a Take 10 on crafts, then so be it. However, the specifics in crafting regarding making a poor role is clear. You could potentially ruin your item. You are also operating under pressure, even threat that failure could mean wasted rare materials. IMO, As a DM, you can't take 10 because the penalty is too severe if you fail. Too severe. This is not like swimming in the shallow end of a pool here. You are trying to apply all of your knowledge and understanding while working hard at your craft. Each item made is a culmination of your experiences. Conditions must be met and remain constant. Timing is critical.
Wharin 01-21-05, 10:56 AM	Well yeah with the wieldskill you would definitely need multiple applications of it during the week, but i think once a day is suffiecient. In fact i could have sworn that they actually mention this in the book, although maybe it was how my DM described it to me. Maybe you're right. I'll have to read the description again. (i dont own Magic of Faerun) As for taking 10, i dunno..., I think its pretty straight forward supported by the RAW. I mean there is no combat taking place, and its not like you are going to die if you fail. Taking ten just makes sense to me. That said, if a person's skill+10 does not equal the DC of the item (s)he is trying to make, then ofcrouse, taking 10 is just plain stupid, and you are definitely going to need to role. Again, now maybe this was from a 3rd person publisher, so forgive me if i wrong, but i know i read a d20 book that stated that taking 10 while crafting is definitely an option, but if you want to work faster, rolling might give you that better number(10 vs. 10.5 avg), of course, it *is* risky. And it makes sense to me. If someone is a true practiced smith (read 10+ ranks) unless he really fumbles up, Three Stooges style, i have a hard time believing that he couldnt salvage 99% of the materials. But i make no claim in knowing what is exactly needed in making a good sword. I've seen the History Channel Shows, but I make no claim at being an expert.
Beamup 01-21-05, 01:21 PM	The spell Wieldskill is useless in this area. Wieldskill's duration expires too soon. He would have to be in a constant state of it for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Crafting an item is measured initially in weeks, not hours. It could be measured in days, but the formula is off. It will take more time to do it in days then weeks. Actually, it's designed to be the same time as in days as in weeks. They just neglected to mention that they're using a 10-day week (which is specified in most campaign settings I know of, IIRC including FR and Greyhawk). As for Taking 10....If you allow a Take 10 on crafts, then so be it. However, the specifics in crafting regarding making a poor role is clear. You could potentially ruin your item. You are also operating under pressure, even threat that failure could mean wasted rare materials. IMO, As a DM, you can't take 10 because the penalty is too severe if you fail. Too severe. If you do not allow taking 10 on Craft checks, you are applying a house rule to do so. READ the section on taking 10. There is absolutely nothing in it about penalties if you fail. The ONLY condition to be able to take 10 is that you are not under pressure. Having penalties if you fail only forbids taking 20. Can you implement a house rule forbidding taking 10 on Craft checks? Sure. Is it possible, in any way, to interpret the RAW as forbidding taking 10 on typical Craft checks? Absolutely not. The only way to get that conclusion is to confuse the rules for taking 10 and taking 20.
Feldspar 01-22-05, 04:51 AM	I'm bored. So here is a few ball parks to use. Dealing with Chainmail Simplifying...You have 3 types of Crafters: A. Decent (5 Ranks of Craft) B. Good (10 Ranks of Craft) C. Great (15 Ranks of Craft) The DC to make Chainmail is just 15. Crafter A = ~7 Weeks to make the armor Crafter B = 5 Weeks Crafter C = 4 Weeks For master work Chainmail: Crafter A = 13 weeks (MW component) + 7 Weeks (Chainmail) = 20 Weeks Crafter B = 10 weeks (MW component) + 5 Weeks (Chainmail) = 15 Weeks Crafter B = 8 weeks (MW component) + 4 Weeks (Chainmail) = 12 Weeks TOTAL COST OF MW CHAINMAIL = 450gp Masterwork armor and shields only cost 150 extra, so the total cost is 300. The reworked times for the MW components are: Crafter A = can't take 10 Crafter B = 4 weeks Crafter C = 3 weeks Note that the MW components now takes less time to make than the equally priced armor. Why? Because of the higher DC. The crafting rules are so whacked ... You should be able to increase the DC by ANY amount you want, not just increments of 10. Oh, if Caster C did use a DC of 25 for chainmail he'd finish in 3 weeks for that part. Anyway, just because I can, here's the results of simulating the crafting checks without taking 10. In each case we simulate crafting the item a 1000 times and see what the average is. Crafter A: average attempt - weeks: 9.98 setbacks: 2.52 cost: 112 gp 9 sp cost # of perce- in gp setbacks entage histogram ------------------------------------------------- 50.0 0 11% ***** 75.0 1 23% *********** 100.0 2 20% ********** 125.0 3 18% ********* 150.0 4 10% ***** 175.0 5 7% *** 200.0 6 3% * 225.0 7+ 3% *Crafter B and C can't ever have setbacks (failures that waste materials) against a DC of 15. Crafter B: average attempt - weeks: 6.19 setbacks: 0.00 cost: 50 gp Crafter C: average attempt - weeks: 4.42 setbacks: 0.00 cost: 50 gp It's not actually worth C to try to up the DC if he can't take 10: average attempt - weeks: 4.35 setbacks: 1.09 cost: 77 gp 2 sp cost # of perce- in gp setbacks entage histogram ------------------------------------------------- 50.0 0 38% ******************* 75.0 1 35% ***************** 100.0 2 14% ******* 125.0 3 6% *** 150.0 4 3% * 175.0 5 1% 200.0 6 0% 225.0 7+ 0%Now for or the MW portions of the equipment. Crafter A: average attempt - weeks: 13.09 setbacks: 6.53 cost: 213 gp 2 sp cost # of perce- in gp setbacks entage histogram ------------------------------------------------- 50.0 0 2% * 75.0 1 4% ** 100.0 2 7% *** 125.0 3 11% ***** 150.0 4 10% ***** 175.0 5 12% ****** 200.0 6 8% **** 225.0 7+ 42% *********************Crafter B: average attempt - weeks: 6.38 setbacks: 1.63 cost: 90 gp 8 sp cost # of perce- in gp setbacks entage histogram ------------------------------------------------- 50.0 0 28% ************** 75.0 1 27% ************* 100.0 2 18% ********* 125.0 3 12% ****** 150.0 4 6% *** 175.0 5 4% ** 200.0 6 1% 225.0 7+ 0%Crafter C: average attempt - weeks: 3.99 setbacks: 0.00 cost: 50 gp
BlackFiend 01-23-05, 01:20 AM	Is it possible, in any way, to interpret the RAW as forbidding taking 10 on typical Craft checks? Absolutely not. The only way to get that conclusion is to confuse the rules for taking 10 and taking 20. I won't debate with you regarding the craft skills. I think it was poorly written in the first place, completely whacked in the second place, but both are seperate and aside from THIS discussion. I will say this, if one could take 10 on a craft check, they would :rarely: suffer from wasted materials. The chance to destroy wasted materials IS a distraction. You can't take 10 with distractions. Beyond this, the cost of the item DEPENDS on the value of the check rolls. Roll low or high...it matters not. The value effects the cost of the item.
Wharin 01-23-05, 02:02 AM	I will say this, if one could take 10 on a craft check, they would :rarely: suffer from wasted materials. The chance to destroy wasted materials IS a distraction. You can't take 10 with distractions. Beyond this, the cost of the item DEPENDS on the value of the check rolls. Roll low or high...it matters not. The value effects the cost of the item. I dunno, i wouldnt nessisarily consider the fear of failure (or rather the ramifications of failure) to be a good enough distraction to not allow taking 10. After all, in the example they give in the books, if Krusk can take 10 climbing up a knotted rope, where a failure would result in personal injury/death (which to me is alot worse then wasting matierials), you would think that a "master craftsman" (who, seriously, in the DnD world wouldnt normally be above level 5, provided he is an everyday NPC) should be able to hammer out a full plate, without risk of losing more money than the suit could possibly make from it. To me, distractions would like if there was combat around, but not nessisarily within 5 feet of you, or maybe just kender makes a habbit of walking in and out of your smithy, or a mobster is *constantly* threatening your life if you dont get the suit done sooner than normal. The ramifications of failure shouldn't nessisarily be enough to warrant a distraction, thus not allowing a person to take 10. Otherwise, taking 10 would hardly *ever* be an option.
BlackFiend 01-24-05, 12:25 PM	If taking 10 is an option in crafting, then there would flat out *never* be wasted materials. Ever. Either you can make it normally, or you can't, and it takes slightly longer to do so. Lets look at an example: Platemail- Thats the epitome of medieval armorsmithing. In practice, A. some crafters aren't capable of making it, B. some are capable, but it takes a darn long time, and then C. there are those who can do it reasonably. So...lets take a character with just 4 ranks in craft at first level. He's trying to make a suit of Platemail! DC 18 It should be a completely wasted affair. He has no chance, or...moreover...it will take him forever to do it, unaided. He would waste untold amounts of material each weak. By the odds, he has only a 30% chance per week of making the DC. He would have a 45% chance each week of wasting materials. It would take untold amount of time for him to make this item. That seems fairly reasonable to me for someone with 4 ranks of Craft. However...if he could take 10: He would never make the DC to craft the item, he would make no progress each week He would never waste materials. IMO, thats defeats the entire point of having a failure chance. But...thats the way the system is structured. Not much can be done about it. Take 10 was not *specifically* barred from Craft checks. Take 20 is reasonable, imo, since this is stating that they are willing to expense lots of time inorder to achieve the goal. Take 10 has no time penalty as well for the benefit.
Beamup 01-24-05, 02:13 PM	There is still plenty of opportunity to waste materials. In particular, if you're trying to make something difficult - so taking 10 doesn't make the DC. Then you ROLL. Your example misses the utterly trivial point that the crafter who can't make the DC that way WON'T take 10. So the entire argument fails in its entirety. Having a penalty for failure applies ONLY to taking 20. This is very clearly stated in the rules for 10 and 20. READ THEM.
BlackFiend 01-24-05, 03:32 PM	If I didn't read them...my friend...I wouldn't have my opinion in the matter. I recognize that my opinion is not gospel in the matter...but I am sticking to my guns because its logical. If the skill was better designed, you would have a DC for acheiving success, and any thing less is a failure. Within the range of success, you would have the gradient to determine just how successful you are (affecting time, materials, etc.) Its a plausible attempt for the 3.5 system, and we can leave it at that. Perhaps in the 4.0 system due to be released next year (sarcasm), they'll fix the craft system so DM's don't shake their head at it and make up their own values. :) BTW...one can use this handy calculator for crafting. I've used it in the past. It works pretty well! http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/craft_skill_calculator.htm (BTW...it allows you to take 10 ;) )
Edymnion 01-24-05, 05:14 PM	Ah come on people, you can take 10 on Crafting. If you're good at something, you can always just go on "auto-pilot" while you're doing it. Yeah, you don't waste materials that way, thats the point. It also means you can't do anything spectacular either. You're just cruising along, doing your job, that you've done a thousand times before. Its only when you're trying to do something difficult or tricky that you really run a chance of screwing it up. Thats when you roll, when it's too hard to do on "auto-pilot". If you only wait until you can Take 10 to craft something with no chance of failure, then you're going to be 7 levels behind the people that are making rolls as to what you can and cannot make. You roll for the tricky stuff, you take 10 for the simple things, its not a problem.
Vanigo 01-24-05, 07:31 PM	Tell me, BlackFiend, how much iron do you think an actual medieval blacksmith wasted? As for taking 20, well, you can't do that, because the penalty for failure does prevent you from taking 20. This, to my mind, makes sense. If you want to make something that's really hard for you to make, don't you think you're going to screw up and ruin your materials a time or two? It doesn't particularly matter if you take your time and do everything really carefully, you're still going to botch it a few times. You might get it eventually, but probably not on your first try. Kinda like what happens if you keep rolling until you get it. Remember, taking 20, when you get right down to it, is nothing more than a way to let players keep rolling until they get it without actually having to roll over and over and over again.
Rulebook 01-25-05, 03:06 AM	the arguement i love to use is this: how often do you fail in making a peanut butter and jelly sandwitch? is it a fair bet to assume you just go for an average one every time and expect to make it without cutting your arm off or something? well, a blacksmith can make horseshoes till the cows come home (or horses in this case) and when you get better, the stuff you can create quickly becomes ever increasing.
BlackFiend 01-25-05, 01:11 PM	You guys are funny. Ask your mom how often as a kid you wasted good peanut butter and jelly by spilling some onto the floor, or dropped a slice of bread and ruined it. As for wasting of materials during blacksmithing... Yes, absolutely you can waste materials, including iron. Now, we aren't talking about a professional blacksmith hammering a horseshoe here...we are discussing the fine art (ART) of armorsmithing. Now I am slightly familiar with weaponsmithing through various readings, but I know precious little about armorsmithing. Many of the principles are the same, and I'm sure its fairly more complex since you are dealing with laborious tasks, forge time, tailoring, needlework, etc, etc, etc... So I will speak regarding weaponsmithing as an example to cite. Please forgive the gentle transistion and not call this the comparison of apples to oranges. It is one thing to hammer out a crude sword and toss it on a heap for a quick sale by some peasant. Its another thing to hone a sword thats won't break on its user and is suitable for life and death combat. I am not referring to masterwork mind you...but a basic well made sword. WASTE 1. While working a forge, all sorts of materials get wasted. From the hammering alone you have scraps of metal falling to the shop floor which cannot be reused. Its no longer pure if re-used and will develop faultlines that break understress. This "scrap iron" has to be gathered and remelted into another item. 2. While working a forge, there is one thing that must remain constant. HEAT. You have to constantly keep the forge hot. It doesn't stay hot by use of propane gas...no...it takes wood and materials. You have to work swiftly while forging when the iron is hot. Take too long, or make precious mistakes and you've wasted precious expensive metal and even more fuel and forge time. 3. In order to help the molten metal to bond you also need flux, a type of borax. Yet another resource that can be wasted by apprentices. This doesn't even include the host of other materials involved in the science of medieval metallurgy, or the mysticism involved with hardening metal in the liquid bath (the bath itself could be made up of some combination water, oil, wine, honey, even blood or urine! It was a cultural thing for some). This bathing process made the steel hard but also very brittle. The item was then re-heated to bring it back to a hammerable form to bring about durability, flexability, and hardness. In the case of a sword, they'd begin the fun process of sharpening using a stone wheel. Imagine what would happen if a newbie sword maker forgot to re-temper the sword and went to the wheel too soon! Ka-PING! It snaps and half and the whole thing has to be resmelted and started from scratch. At any point along the process, a newbie can screw the crap out of it by adding too little of one process, or overdoing another process. Often, weaponsmiths practice varius techniques and procedures while crafting...why? Because they learn new skills as they go, plus they learn from others in their craft or guild who share insights. Its not a cookie cutter job, per se, making an implement of war. Newbies who learn a certain way may find that the procedure that works great in the winter, fails miserably in the summer due to humidity...or with iron from one mountain versus another mountain. Or there tools need remedy, and they don't have the understanding to realize they are working with flawed tools. So yes...there is absolutely a failure chance in craft weapons, armor, etc.
Drachasor 01-25-05, 02:45 PM	Great, why don't you implement tort reform, have everyone keep track of their daily caloric and vitamin intakes, and make dang sure the players tell you when they are going to the bathroom (and that's a reflex save, DC 5 or they soil themselves in the attempt). The crafting rules are well and good for the job they do and the amount of detail NEEDED by the game. Adding in unnecessary details slows the game down and makes it less fun. You know what, the Knowledge System doesn't mimic the real world either. The Survival Skill isn't 100% accurate. The combat system doesn't mimc real combat either (no weapon length or speed charts). Wearing Heavy Armor all day doesn't exhaust you like it should.... And there are a host of other things that you simply must accept as good enough, because they aren't the focus of what is a GAME, not a simulation of reality. Again, remember it is a game. -Drachasor
mercurial67 01-25-05, 04:33 PM	You guys are funny. Ask your mom how often as a kid you wasted good peanut butter and jelly by spilling some onto the floor, or dropped a slice of bread and ruined it.Sigh... The guy just doesn't get it. Ask your own mom how many times SHE botched a PB&J sandwich when she wasn't being yelled at or had screaming kids crying for food NOW. A kid who has no skills in food prep & has minuses to his dex check because he is still developing isn't a good example. We aren't talking about NEWBIES making a sword. They don't have skill points assigned yet. We are talking about your average swordsmith who has placed all of his skill points in the skill & might have the skill focus feat who is taking his time & isn't rushed. There will be wasted iron which is factored into the cost of making the item. As for it being different than making horseshoes, there is no difference other than a difference other than the DC & the skill being used. It still works the same. You can work at a pace you know you can handle and turn out a completely normal weapon. But you know what, it really doesn't matter because the rules say you can take 10 when not threatened or distracted. If you can take 10 & you know you will make the check, there is no distraction for "possibly loosing some material" which is not a distraction in the first place.
BlackFiend 01-26-05, 07:41 AM	Dude...read up a bit. In my first post, I granted that a professional crafter should be allowed to take 10. It simplifies the buying selling process for a DM to handle his orignal question. We are referring to the skill. We are talking about the johnny come lately character that puts a single rank in craft and wants to create masterwork platemail. I'm tempted to get real sardonic here. If people don't take time to read a even the first few posts of the thread yet feel free to leap in like they have a clue and a parachute. :) Oh and as a dad who's made enough peanut butter and jelly sandwiches to feed sustain civil war battalion, yes, I've botched a few sandwiches. Especially when I was making them at a church picnic! The whol bag of bread emptied out on to the ground. Being a clever Blackfiend, I strictly followed the 6 second rule, blew the dirt off of them...so no one is the wiser. ;) Hey...you want a PB&J, dude?
BlackFiend 01-26-05, 07:56 AM	Great, why don't you implement tort reform, have everyone keep track of their BLAH BLAH BLAH... -Drachasor Sorry, I lost you after the blah, blah blah and woke up near the end. Listen, I accept the system as it is, part and parcel. I don't play house rules. I do apply the system as it is...and AS IT IS...it (the skill Craft) has the ability to waste materials potentially ad infinitum. By allowing the take 10 for "non-professionals" (take that term as you will, I won't debate what a professional is or isn't" you short circuit the skill. Crafting in a forge is definitely not something done at leisure. Its arduous, its painstaking, its time critical. So...RAW, I don't allow take 10...unless you were...a "professional". You may choose differently because you interpret it as such. Feel free, house rule it different. Its a beautiful country, isn't it.
Beamup 01-26-05, 10:31 AM	You know, you still have not provided the least little bit of rules-based argument for why you can't take 10 on Craft checks. Your entire argument consists of "I don't like it." You're applying house rules. Which is fine, but don't try to claim they're RAW, because RAW very explicitly contradict you.
Naeron 01-26-05, 10:58 AM	I know that thats what I was quaoting above, but that does not in any way really refelct how long a suite of armor might take...the rules you listed are a catch all for ANY items...it would take as long to make a masterwork gold doorknob as a masterwork suite of chainmail....not very realistic for down time in the campaign No it doesn't and the times are not that unrealistic for a single person starting from the real raw materials. Note that the Masterwork compent is in addition to the normal craft time and the MW costs for items and armour are different (MW armour is +150gp and a MW tool is 50gp) so all other things aside the MW component of the doorknob would take a third of the time of the MW armour or less. So MW Breastplate is 2000sp at DC15 (Breatsplate) and 1500sp at DC20 (MW). The doorknob might be 100sp at DC10 (Doorknob) plus 500sp at DC20 (MW). Assuming a check of 20 that would be 11 weeks for the breastplate and 2 weeks for the doorknob. About the only thing that you must do with crafting is when crafting things with intrinsic value, such as a gold doorknob, is to allow the crafter to craft the change in intrinsic value of the item only (but they pay the starting intrinsic value plus one third of the change). This makes the craft times for gems and jewellry far more realistic. So the crafter creating that MW Gold door knob might not include in its time calculations the high value of gold but rather a more accurate calculation of how long it takes to create a doorknob from a piece of gold and MW it. If someone actually wants to start from the base materials (e.g. the ore) then use the default as that does give reasonable times once you consider all the steps from start to finish. We will allow them take 10. (You aren't allowed to though, since there is a failure chance, but we will allow this since they are "professional NPC crafters" and we are simplifying things a bit.) Having any consequences for failure (which is not the same as having a chance of failing) stops you taking 20 on a skill check. Having a Failure chance does not in any way stop you from taking 10 by the rules. It even specifically says that you can Take 10 to avoid failure. SRD - " When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure — you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10)." So yes...there is absolutely a failure chance in craft weapons, armor, etc. Most of what you are specifying here is nothing to do with failure but part of the production process. All of this is covered by the existing craft rules. The lost metal, flux etc is all covered by the material costs of the item, its consumed in making the end product so included in the time an cost. Within the granularity of the system itself these things are handled perfectly adequately. And there is certainly a failure chance because if the DC is 11 or higher than your check you MUST roll as take 10 will never give any progress and you can get a failure roll at this level. To make items consistently (which certainly is achievable and is what the rules are modelling) you must reach a certain level of skill and this is reflected in the rules.
BlackFiend 01-26-05, 02:50 PM	Having any consequences for failure (which is not the same as having a chance of failing) stops you taking 20 on a skill check. Having a Failure chance does not in any way stop you from taking 10 by the rules. It even specifically says that you can Take 10 to avoid failure. Most of what you are specifying here is nothing to do with failure but part of the production process. All of this is covered by the existing craft rules. The lost metal, flux etc is all covered by the material costs of the item, its consumed in making the end product so included in the time an cost. Within the granularity of the system itself these things are handled perfectly adequately. And there is certainly a failure chance because if the DC is 11 or higher than your check you MUST roll as take 10 will never give any progress and you can get a failure roll at this level. To make items consistently (which certainly is achievable and is what the rules are modelling) you must reach a certain level of skill and this is reflected in the rules. Agreed...you need to have AT LEAST a rank and bonus sufficient enough to begin the process. This much is certain. However, unlike most skill checks, Craft Skill checks are done per week or daily. New checks are made and the outcome is critical to determine the value of the item. For instance: Lets go with the Chainmail, but decorated with gems and fieldcrest showing off his holy symbol. (Base Price 150gp+100gp in other items) 1. Armor component to be crafted = 2500sp @ DC 15 Initial Materials cost = 834sp (50gp) A Novice Crafter with 1 rank in Craft, 2 assistants, and masterwork tools has a bonus of +5 to their craft check. With a take 10, this crafter can finish this item in 11.1 weeks. No materials were wasted, no check failed. Done. But realize...thats 11 weeks...11 craft checks to be completed. If he had to roll a D20, he would have 50% chance of failing his check each week. Moreover...he would have a 10% chance per week of wasting materials. Each time he failed a roll by 5 or more, he would have to pay 400+sp because of wasted materials. The time of crafting could potentially take 22 weeks...not 11. How does Taking 10 for non-professionals take this into account? Crafting weapons is not a *routine task* for this fellow. Therefore, he should be subject to potential failures. What differentiates this non-professional from a professional taking 10? By allowing a "Taking 10" on Craft by non-professionals, you avoid all of the potential shortfalls...with no penalty. With a Take 20, at least you can increase in the measure of time. I would allow a non-professional to take 20, mind you. Its logical. They are taking the time and expense to do it right with no failure. I repeat: If making armor or weapons was a "routine task" (per Taking 10), then yes...feel free to Take 10. As I said, I am fine with w/ a "professional" to take 10. It fits the mold made by Take 10. But not some PC with a rank or two in some craft skill. There are PLENTY of distractions during crafting to say no...its not distraction proof. Especially armor or weapon making. Basketweaving...well...you can take 10 till your hearts content. Again...this is using purely the rules, mathematics, statistics, and common sense. I've seen this abused a few times at the gaming table and we've discussed it and came to some understandings. A perfect example was a mage who wanted to cast the spell Contingency. In order to do it, you needed a statuette of you, carved in ivory and bejewelled. The fellow took 2 ranks in the skill and wanted to make it on his own. When the DM decided the DC was a 18 to do it, he threw a fit. He didn't want to take the time to find a talented crafter to do the job and spend the gold to do it. So he made this elaborate scheme to higher a bunch of assistance and do the work himself. When it was decided the assistance couldn't be used, he decided to put all of his ranks that level into craft and just take 10. We disallowed it based on RAW. It was far from a routine task, and there was definitely a chance of failure when making a fine item of bone and gems. In the end, he simply coughed up a total of 1800gp to a jeweller. Its logical to do it this way. Mind you, the folks I play with are older (mid 30's to low 40's), we follow the text strictly, AND we expect alot from each other as players and DMs. There is a premium on keeping things real and we don't delve into "final fantasy like" fantasy of heros monkeygripping 8' long great swords. So take my advice for where its at. We allow it, but we will diss you like you are wearing a diaper and sleep in a crib.
Wharin 01-27-05, 01:06 AM	Your whole arguement of professional vs. non-professional and basket-weaving vs armoursmithing should tell you right off the bat that your ruling isnt RAW. Maybe it makes more sense to you (which i am not going to argue with, as i have never smithed anything), but its not RAW. Its an acceptable houserule, but hardly RAW. Is a person with a single rank in a profession, a professional? By definition, it would seem so. I would argue that a crafter with only 1 rank in his chosen craft is also a "professional crafter", maybe a low rate crafter, but a professional, nonetheless. I think the value you place on each rank differs from what Wizards had intended (or maybe mine does...i am fallible, i admit). Where do you personally draw the line of professionalism? 5 ranks? 10 ranks? 15 ranks? Skill focus in said craft? Funny... i never read in the book that specifically mentions taking 10 at a specific skill level because of their professionalism. Odd. Mind you, having 100 assistants wouldn't garuntee that a rank 1 crafter will absolutely succeed, as you can't take 10 in assisting (as stated in the book, specifically), a smithing together a full plate. So taking 10 while smithing isnt fool proof if your are not at the right level. If your DM would limit your "non professional" crafter to 2 assistants, is perfectly in his realm to do so, and is infact stated in the book, that he may do so. I would even say that the DM has the right to not allow any assistants because your ranks in crafting are so low that you arent cooperative enough, and wouldnt know what to do with the extra hands. Part of the skill description is supervising workers, and I wouldnt think that would be unfair if the DM ruled that just 1 rank isnt good enough to supervise a worker. Is it RAW? meh... its pretty much deliberately left open. I think your definition of what a distraction is, is again not what Wizards had intended (again i could be wrong in this case, but everyone else seems to agree with me). "Distractions" that stem from the craft itself, i would argue, is already included in the DC. Distractions from outside sources is what would prevent you from from taking 10. Having his hands possibly be rubbed raw from the knotted hemp rope doesnt keep Krusk from taking 10 on his climbing checks (i would say that its part of the DC). Having goblins chucking rocks at his head would, though. And i hardly think that allowing someone to craft an item, by taking 10, is anywhere near the realm of Busterswords, and anime super jumps. People should be allowed to make a living in their craft, without fear of loosing more money then they could ever hope to gain. (again i refer to my previous posts about how most npc's would never be above level 5, yet Full plate exists in *relative* abundance)
Naeron 01-27-05, 06:19 AM	A Novice Crafter with 1 rank in Craft, 2 assistants, and masterwork tools has a bonus of +5 to their craft check. Considering that, to provide the +2 the assistants must get a skill check of 10 (and cannot take 10 on this) the 2 assistants would be rather skilled themselves. Its logical to do it this way. Its only logical if you assume that there is a high level of wastage during crafting that is not subsumed into the costs already used, losing half the raw materials indicates a major failure in the process, not the normal low level wastage. Having a rank in a craft skill makes you a semi-professional, unskilled people make their checks with no ranks. After all 10 ranks is about the best that can be justified for any standard human NPC craftsman so actually having the rank indicates a serious effort in the skill.
Drachasor 01-27-05, 11:08 AM	"Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help." Those are the rules, and RAW you can take 10 on any skill that allows you to do so. Craft Allows you to take 10, so you can always take 10 on a craft. Those are the rules, and you clearly don't like them, but don't pretend you aren't making up your own house rules when you are. The text is pretty clear (and is only more clear when you read individual skill descriptions). Heck, you don't even want to talk about your arbitrary definition of a "professional". In any case, as I said before, it might not be 100% realistic, but it gets the job done, and spending time worrying over such minute details is not worth the effort when you could be doing other things. Taking 10 is designed to do exactly what you "fear" and let someone easily pass something that might otherwise fail half the time if they were being hasty and lacking care (not taking 10). Highly skilled crafters benefit from this too though, as someone with a rank of 15 in craft can take 10 and get 25, then increase the DC of anything with a base DC of 15 or below by 10, thereby getting the job done quicker. -Drachasor
Vanigo 01-28-05, 03:44 AM	You guys are funny. Ask your mom how often as a kid you wasted good peanut butter and jelly by spilling some onto the floor, or dropped a slice of bread and ruined it. As for wasting of materials during blacksmithing... Yes, absolutely you can waste materials, including iron. [snip] So yes...there is absolutely a failure chance in craft weapons, armor, etc.Sure, but that newbie has maybe one rank in Craft (Weaponsmithing), maybe a +1 int bonus, and maybe +2 for masterwork tools, and he's trying to hit DC 15. Taking 10 isn't going to do it for him. A fully trained professional is going to have something like 5 ranks, +3 from Skill Focus, +1 from int, and maybe some other stuff, so he can take 10 and do it easily, but he could still botch it on a really bad roll. But ask yourself, is a fully trained professional really going to make those stupid mistakes? Probably not; he's going to be taking 10. Now, as for letting profesisonals take 10, but not PCs? I could see doing that out of exasperation if your players keep having their high level wizards make masterwork full plate untrained thanks to their incredible int modifiers, but unless that's a big problem for you, I don't see the point. Remember, if a PC has put eight or nine ranks into a craft skill, for all intents and purposes, he is a trained professional. It isn't his day job, so to speak, but he's got all the skills that Joe Professional Blacksmith does. Why should Joe's last name give him preferential treatment?
BlackFiend 01-28-05, 10:30 AM	Vanigo...thank you for being reasonable. Sure, but that newbie has maybe one rank in Craft (Weaponsmithing), maybe a +1 int bonus, and maybe +2 for masterwork tools, and he's trying to hit DC 15. Taking 10 isn't going to do it for him. A fully trained professional is going to have something like 5 ranks, +3 from Skill Focus, +1 from int, and maybe some other stuff, so he can take 10 and do it easily, but he could still botch it on a really bad roll. Agreed. But ask yourself, is a fully trained professional really going to make those stupid mistakes? Probably not; he's going to be taking 10. I agree...I let them take 10. Now, as for letting profesisonals take 10, but not PCs? I could see doing that out of exasperation if your players keep having their high level wizards make masterwork full plate untrained thanks to their incredible int modifiers, That was the issue we faced. It was a problem...I wouldn't call it BIG though. It was more annoying than anything. We let him have a few feet, he took a mile and tried to run with it. but unless that's a big problem for you, I don't see the point. Remember, if a PC has put eight or nine ranks into a craft skill, for all intents and purposes, he is a trained professional. I'm fine with just 5 ranks, actually, not 8 or 9 ranks. A PC who spent 5 or more ranks is more than acceptable for taking 10. Purely for expediency.
Wharin 01-28-05, 11:41 AM	Which seems to fly in the face of what you said earlier about your Wizard and his craft ranks. Hey if your group feels that crafting metal weapons/armour etc. is too tricky to allow taking 10, then go for it. However I wouldnt go spouting that what your group does is by the RAW, and that we are immature for allowing our smiths for taking 10. Like i said, its totally reasonable to have your DM disallow assistants for your crafter if he has no ranks, or very low ranks; i mean if he is not that skilled i doubt he would know what to do with them. Even if he *has* a decent number of ranks, he is within his realm of reason to still only allow a couple of assistants for the craft check (after all, if the smithy is only 10' x 10', how many people can comfortably fit?) who could *still* possibly not even be able to help him. This will keep him from crafting presicsion items until he *has* to invest a good number of points in that skill to be able to take 10 (cus if your skill mod +10 is still less then the DC you will never get anywhere), which by then *would* fill your requirement for "professional". And until then, he would have to roll, and absolutley stand the chance of botching up so bad that he would waste alot of materials. Now i understand your concern with people crafting items with absolutely no expertise (read: skill points invested in craft), but the DM can make it so that it would be impossible for him to do by taking 10, without saying "o well... you're not a 'professional' so you are not allowed to take 10", which is a fine ruling but isnt RAW.
BlackFiend 01-28-05, 01:10 PM	...that we are immature for allowing our smiths for taking 10. I am convinced you don't read posts. I thought it at first...denied it...but now I realize it and see it very clearly. I never said smiths can't take 10. If anything, I said smiths (''professionals'')CAN take 10. That was said from the @$!%! start, man. Over and over...no less. Furthermore... RAW, you can't take 10 if there is a distraction. Period. RAW. Read it...chew on it. The DM makes the call regarding what is a distraction. In our case, the DM (and the rest of the play group) decided that crafting in a forge when you aren't around such locations often enough, is indeed a distraction to prevent a Take 10. The environment, the time pressure, the fast rush, the frantic pace...its not a place for some inexperienced chap to do its thing...churning out advanced armor or incredible sculptures! Absolutely...that is RAW. The list of potential distractions is left to the DM to arbitrate. So let the arbiter abitrate. Its still RAW. My "spouting" is me giving my understanding to someone who is attempting to get "accurate" forge times. Jebus...I wish there was a flame board here. I could use one right now. BTW...for those interested...I found this a few days ago. Its a great redo on the craft skill. I like it. Check it out! http://www.willscott.net/rpg/Craft.doc
Wharin 01-28-05, 02:23 PM	I am convinced you don't read posts. I thought it at first...denied it...but now I realize it and see it very clearly. I never read the posts? Maybe i am missing your meaning, i will grant you that, but I dont think its without reason: I never said smiths can't take 10. If anything, I said smiths (''professionals'')CAN take 10. That was said from the @$!%! start, man. Over and over...no less. IMO, As a DM, you can't take 10 because the penalty is too severe if you fail. Too severe. The chance to destroy wasted materials IS a distraction. You can't take 10 with distractions Dude...read up a bit. In my first post, I granted that a professional crafter should be allowed to take 10. ...So he made this elaborate scheme to higher a bunch of assistance and do the work himself. When it was decided the assistance couldn't be used, he decided to put all of his ranks that level into craft and just take 10. We disallowed it based on RAW. It was far from a routine task, and there was definitely a chance of failure when making a fine item of bone and gems. There is a premium on keeping things real and we don't delve into "final fantasy like" fantasy of heros monkeygripping 8' long great swords. So take my advice for where its at. We allow it, but we will diss you like you are wearing a diaper and sleep in a crib. Well... i could go the low road and be uncivil, but i'll try to keep this light hearted: You flip flop like um... a sandal. You say you allow it (though your example wizard still couldnt), but only after making fun of the guy. My biggest problem with your arguements is what you consider professional, what you consider novice and what you consider a distraction COMBINED with the fact that you claim its all RAW. You said that you dont want to discuss the finer points of what is a professional, but at the same time claim its RAW. It just doesnt jive. My thought is that any crafter with 1 point of craft has to have had training. He wouldnt in any form of reality just say "ah now i am smithing". That said, thats how most players play it, but its not supposed to be. With the training he should know the ins and the outs of crafting. Those things that are distractions aren't distractions anymore; its part of the trade. If thats your biggest beef with PC's and crafting, that they just go "ah now i have ranks, so i can craft", then maybe your DM should make people take time off between levels to justify their level/skill-gains (which btw, is what i think the DMG suggests). Classicly, a person with ranks in a craft is suppose to be learned in the craft, through training, not sponteous influx of skill. The character knows how to use the tools of the trade, how to perform the craft's daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. Thats my whole point. What are distractions to most people who know nothing of smithing, is arguably just a common problem what won't burst his bubble. And if your DM rules differently, go ahead, but i really hate seeing people state that its RAW, cus its not, its a DM ruling, which of course is supported by the rules, i suppose. Maybe my idea of what it means to be RAW is different from yours; I can deal with that. Now if you read MY post the way i intended it to be read, you would see that i was trying to half-support your DM's decision, but give him more, um.. whassitnames... diplomatic ways to solve the problem then simply by saying that he couldnt take 10 cus he's not "professional" enough, when the whole idea of professionalism, to me, is *highly* debatable (despite your resolve that you dont want to debate it). BTW: i did read your link that you gave on smithing. Its not bad. Definitely more complicated than the normal crafting rules, but I definitely think it fits the spirit of smithing, in particular, better than the current rules.
Canned Man 01-29-05, 08:09 AM	I've been following this thread since the start of it, and for me, "just another DM", it's been really informative, but at times confusing as well. Your last post really clears it up for me. It all makes sense now. After all, as you say, players need to spend some time to train and master whatever they learn when their level increase. That's why I never allow players to take ranks in skills they won't have a chance to learn. If a player wants to learn weaponsmithing, he'll have to see a blacksmith who masters it (who has one rank or more). He can't take the skill while in a dungeon. And I agree that once you've learned a trade, common distractions don't matter. You still perform equally well. The potential loss of materials is already included in the cost of making it. And after all: Making a standard shortsword is a rather simple task, and I suppose it's expected that any blacksmith can make that. Anyone who's had the necessary training to know how to hammer out a sword, would be able to make it, and customers visiting, etc., won't make the process any more risky. Of course he can take 10 doing it. However, if a regular smith tries to make an item that he normally doesn't, it will probably be so hard that he can't just do it like an everyday chore (DC exceeds an average roll of 10+skill total). He'll probably have to close the store for some time, to be able to focus properly on the chore at hand, and therefore the player'll have to roll the d20 and see how it turns out. If however the PC had had a lot more training (DC matches an average roll), the smith has enough experience to make the item without breaking too much of a sweat – in other words: take 10. If it's possible to take 10, the PC naturally does so. But if a civil war all of a sudden breaks out, and he'll have to work while dodging bullets, it'd be another matter.
Wharin 01-29-05, 11:21 PM	Yeah my DM, as generous as he was, was a stickler for making people reach the town and "take a week off" before we were allowed to level up our characters. Now most skills make sense it just being able to put points in. As character make Listen, Spot, Search rolls and the like as they adventure, thats all the practice they should need. But for skills like Profession and Craft, where its nigh-impossible to practice on in a dungeon, it takes a little more in-game explanation as to why hes all the sudden better at the skill than he as before. Some people take leveling up for granted. I suspect this might be Blackfiend's hang-up on who is "professional" and who isnt (Though i could be wrong, and make no claim to be an expert on what makes Blackfiend tick). Yeah now I am totally off subject: How 'bout that local sports team?