Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr. Benway 11-04-04, 01:00 AM	I am considering using these rules in my new Eberron campaign since they seem espescially flavorful in that swashbuckling pulp action mood that Eberron embodies. But what I want to know is how it has worked for people who have used it in their games? Does it slow down combat? Spice it up and so make it feel more action-packed? Change the style or flow? I would very interested in any feedback people had to offer... Thanks in advance, DocB:88E:
Moon-Lancer 11-04-04, 08:20 AM	could you give info on Parrying Rules without breaking wotc rules?
Dr. Benway 11-04-04, 11:10 AM	You can basically spend an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry a single successful melee attack against you. You make an opposed melee attack and if equal or greater to the one that hit you, you parry it. Then there is a line of feats based on this being able to do more and interesting things assosciated with parrying... Thats a basic sum-up. Check these out tho if unfamiliar with them. Anyone else whos used them care to chime in? DocB:88E:
Saric 11-04-04, 01:17 PM	The little time i used them, everyone picked it up and had combat reflexes and high dex scores. A very flavorful addition however it can be greatly abused.. think twice before letting it in
Zappa 11-04-04, 01:38 PM	Although the flavor of these feats is excellent, it leads to allot of die rolling. Combat can take a loooong time.
Sensei Gith 11-04-04, 08:24 PM	From what I've heard, that system can get crazily powerful. I much prefer my own parry system ("http://geocities.com/senseigith/parry.html).
tempeitri 11-04-04, 09:02 PM	You might want to do a short test run offerning parry as a free option to everyone. Basically with just this small alteration you can greatly change the tactical aspect of combat. PCs will need to analyze if they want to save thier AoO or use it to parry. From this you can start to get an idea of what kind of effect it will have on combat. I did a test run where everyone had the option to do the basic parry (once a round agasint one target, regardless of total number of AoOs you can make), and found it really slowed combat at first. However, everyone was very happy to have something similair to our old 2nd ed parry system back in the game. And the speed eventually returned as people assesed the value of parry quicker. Combat was hugely impacted by the introduction of the full tree. When used properly by a dextrous fighter, the effect can easily be considered over powerful. However it depends on some very specific feat purchasing and a couple of good stats. So unless you have people that you already expect to abuse the rules to thier utmost, I wouldn't expect any adverse impact different than any other time you introduce something new. Just make sure all your players recieve a print out of the parry feats you are allowing. You also might want to include some of the new weapons from that same issue to add some more flavor. On a final note, I will say it was pretty dam funny when the Swashbuckler fought a pirate for 10 minutes real time wihout being able to hit each other.
Dr. Benway 11-05-04, 12:38 AM	Thanks Tempeitri! This is the kind of meaty feedback I was hoping for. I intend to print out copies of the Parrying rules and run some test mock-battle with pregen characters one day before our full session to see how we like the feel of it. Anyone else? DocB:88E:
Purkake 11-05-04, 08:47 AM	I really like that system. Some day i might be able convince my DM to lem my rogue take it. I don't think it is too powerful. First you have to be useing a light weapon and second you need 2 feats to be able to do it in heavy armor. At best you would have fighters who can parry all the blows, but will only deal little damage. It is just hard to underestand how a rogue with a short sword(small weapon) can parry gargantuan dragon's bite,claws, tail or wings( natural weapons are considered 2 sizes samller that the creature and you can parry things 2 sizes bigger that your weapon).
SoulLord 11-05-04, 12:15 PM	I remember the feats we used and abused them now they are banned from our table. think about it spiked chain fighter with spring attack and the parry feats on your turn go smack someone and retreat if they decide to go and make their one attack agaisnt you you have a chance to parry it add to that the posible AoO. when its not your turn just put yourself in the middle of your friends and parry attacks against them.... SoulLord
Dr. Benway 11-05-04, 01:06 PM	Well soul lord it seems like you had a case of abuse and reactionism. It usually occurs in an overly-restrictive group. The players dont feel they have any freedoms, so when something is introduced they milk it for all its worth to the point where it gets abused. Then it gets outlawed and the cycle cnotinues...but I digress. If a person invests all of their feats in being able to do something, then they should be able to be good at doing it. Just from what you described, said character would need to have: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Expertise Combat Reflexes Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Improved Parry Improved Disarm Gaurded Parry Protective Parry and if they wanted to do any of this wearing armor, they would need Armored Fencer (Medium) or Armored Fencer (Heavy), which requires the (Medium) one And if not, then you are going for a dexterity fighter and need Weapon Finesse So, of the person you use in your example, they spent the feats, they paid their dues. High level characters (as this one would need to be) should be able to put the smack down. Should wizards be outlawed because they can do 10d6 damage to a room full of people in one action at 10th level? Some people might say yes...and they'd seem overly-restrictive to me too. But that's just a personal opinon. DocB:88E:
Purkake 11-05-04, 02:21 PM	That spiked chain parry thing is only useful against enemies who only have melee attacks. What about archers, spellcasters, things with BIG attack bonus? You will still do puny damage compared to power attacking greatsword wielding fighter(if you use PA then you will be worse at parring). So all in all you have supreme defense and puny offence. Imagine a duel between two such fighters boooooring you will probably only hit on a natural 20.(BTW can you parry a natural 20?)
Dr. Benway 11-05-04, 05:46 PM	Imagine a duel between two such fighters boooooring you will probably only hit on a natural 20.(BTW can you parry a natural 20?) Actually it could be quite exciting...read the Drizzt books when Salvatore decribes the flashing duels of the D-man and Artemis...and you could only parry a natural 20 with another natural 20 as far as I am concerned. DocB:88E:
tempeitri 11-06-04, 01:39 AM	Imagine a duel between two such fighters boooooring you will probably only hit on a natural 20.(BTW can you parry a natural 20?) To be very honest....the first time it happened it was a little annoying. However it made for some ineteresting (from a tactical standpoint) fights with people trying to use some terrain advantage to even slightly increase thier chance of landing a blow. Lot of rope swinging, mast climbing, barrel jumping, and others.
Aracor 11-06-04, 10:56 AM	Imagine a duel between two such fighters boooooring you will probably only hit on a natural 20.(BTW can you parry a natural 20?) Sure. It's an opposed attack roll, so by the rules, whoever has a higher result wins. If a 1st level wizard made a melee attack and rolled a natural 20, his result would be (generously) 21. If he's fighting a trained 20th level fighter with weapon focus and greater weapon focus, that fighter's MINIMUM roll is higher than the wizard's maximum. So with the parrying rules in effect, the fighter can parry pretty much automatically and the wizard would never land a hit. Incidentally, in the case of a tie, the creature with the higher modifier wins. If people start arguing about this, I'll dig around and actually find the references for that, but I'm positive that I'm correct on that count. ~Aracor
Mirtek 11-06-04, 11:28 AM	Well, I did not test them, but those feats don't seem overpowered to me. Mainly because you need a lot of feats to be able to really make use of them, as each parry grants your opponent a free disarm attempt against you, and you need to go up high in the chain to get rid of this. Only fighters can afford to take the chain until it gets usefull
Dr. Benway 11-08-04, 10:38 AM	To be very honest....the first time it happened it was a little annoying. However it made for some ineteresting (from a tactical standpoint) fights with people trying to use some terrain advantage to even slightly increase thier chance of landing a blow. Lot of rope swinging, mast climbing, barrel jumping, and others. This is the kind of stuff that I hope using rules like these inspires. I am hoping it will generate a general feeling of swashbuckling flashing-blade adventure... Sure. It's an opposed attack roll, so by the rules, whoever has a higher result wins... Incidentally, in the case of a tie, the creature with the higher modifier wins. If people start arguing about this, I'll dig around and actually find the references for that, but I'm positive that I'm correct on that count. Although in almost all forms of combat this is generally true, a natural 20 can still only be parried etc by another natural 20. DocB:88E:
Purkake 11-08-04, 01:51 PM	I feel that you should also get something for "critically" parring an attack. Maybe a free sunder attack ot you can choose to apply the damage to weapon or something like that. That really does make combat more interesting so no more "I roll, I hit"-stuff. The best defence would be to grapple them but OH NO they can parry that too :P(the attampt to grab you) It is also really nice against a power attacker.
Aracor 11-08-04, 02:28 PM	Although in almost all forms of combat this is generally true, a natural 20 can still only be parried etc by another natural 20. No! See my previous example. Even if said wizard rolls a natural 20, because he has a total of 21, he can't beat the near-epic fighter, because he's got higher than a 21 modifier on an attack roll. Natural 20s don't mean as much on an opposed roll, the higher modified roll wins. ~Aracor
Purkake 11-08-04, 04:06 PM	As I see it, it isn't an opposed roll. You attack the creature normally BUT the creature attempts to parry the attack and if he is succesful he parries the attack. But in PHB it says that a natural 20 is always a hit on an attack roll so we have a conflict here. I would go by the PHB because it is CORE. A nat 20 on parry vs a nat 20 on the attack is also conflicting but i like the nat 20 parries another nat 20 on attack (house)rule.
Aracor 11-08-04, 04:25 PM	Admittedly, I haven't actually read the particular dragon magazine, but I was under the impression that it was described as an opposed roll. I could be wrong though. I think I'll try to talk to one of my friends who gets that magazine and take a look at it. ~Aracor
Dr. Benway 11-08-04, 05:33 PM	You had it right Aracor. It goes like this: 1. Enemy attacks you 2. If successful continue, if not nothing happens 3. If enemy's attack was successful, then you can then attempt to parry by making an attack roll yourself as your attack of opportunity 4. If your attack roll equal or exceeds theirs you have successfully parried their strike As for sundering off a parry, there is actually a feat for that if you are a strength based parrier...it basically allows you to make a sunder attempt if you successfully parry their attack...there's more to it tho...cant remember the details, but that's more or less it. As for rolling a natural 20 on a parry, it just means it can only be overcome by another natural 20, in which case it then goes into total bonuses. Opposed rolls do indeed usually work like skill rolls, with rolling a 20 menaing no more or less than adding 20 to your roll. However, in combat situations opposed rolls following the crit rules. DocB:88E:
SoulLord 11-09-04, 03:36 PM	He he lets just say thet the campaign is more story driven than character driven. a human fighter 1 dodge,exotic weapon proficiency Spiked chain 2 dodge 3 combat reflexes 4 mobility 5 6 spring attack, improved parry 7 8 guarded parry 9 protective parry 10 armored fencer the build didnt reach the latest feats before being outlawed as the dm didnt like the feats personally i wouldnt allow them either after seeing them at work or perhaps its just payback for him outlawing them in his campaign :) Well soul lord it seems like you had a case of abuse and reactionism. It usually occurs in an overly-restrictive group. The players dont feel they have any freedoms, so when something is introduced they milk it for all its worth to the point where it gets abused. Then it gets outlawed and the cycle cnotinues...but I digress. If a person invests all of their feats in being able to do something, then they should be able to be good at doing it. Just from what you described, said character would need to have: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Expertise Combat Reflexes Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Improved Parry Improved Disarm Gaurded Parry Protective Parry and if they wanted to do any of this wearing armor, they would need Armored Fencer (Medium) or Armored Fencer (Heavy), which requires the (Medium) one And if not, then you are going for a dexterity fighter and need Weapon Finesse So, of the person you use in your example, they spent the feats, they paid their dues. High level characters (as this one would need to be) should be able to put the smack down. Should wizards be outlawed because they can do 10d6 damage to a room full of people in one action at 10th level? Some people might say yes...and they'd seem overly-restrictive to me too. But that's just a personal opinon. DocB:88E:
Treetrip Danglefoot 11-09-04, 08:14 PM	No! See my previous example. Even if said wizard rolls a natural 20, because he has a total of 21, he can't beat the near-epic fighter, because he's got higher than a 21 modifier on an attack roll. Natural 20s don't mean as much on an opposed roll, the higher modified roll wins. I don't see whats wrong with a natural 20 parried only by a natural twenty. Even the best make mistakes, and even the worst get lucky. Blind pigs and acorns. Aside from that, thats only 1 attack the 20th level fighter has to give up out of 5. On a side note. What the hell would the 1st level wizard be thinking anyway? I'd say if he rolls a natural 20 and the fighter doesn't parry, then the fighter slips and stumbles onto the dagger. And promptly uses 4 other attacks to devestate the helpless level 1 wizard.
Aracor 11-09-04, 09:56 PM	I don't see whats wrong with a natural 20 parried only by a natural twenty. It's not that there's something wrong with it, it's just...weird. An opposed roll like that automatically succeeding opens up other cans of worms, like would it work on a disarm then? How about a grapple? What about the other direction, if the fighter was attacking the wizard? If the wizard rolls a natural 20, does it automatically parry, even though the wizard conceivably doesn't have the skill to parry a shot like that from a skilled fighter? Especially if the fighter rolls a natural 19? That would be, being generous in the favor of the wizard, still about a 20 point difference in the fighter's favor. And the wizard still manages, huh? That's why I think making a natural 20 special in an opposed check causes problems, and I prefer to just avoid the issue. ~Aracor