Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Schwarg 09-21-04, 01:54 PM	Do you provoke an AoO when using wands and other ranged magic items when within threatened range? The PHB states that YES for Attack(ranged) but NO for activating magic items other than potions or scrolls. I read that and think boots, hats, cloaks, that do not have attacks but other use. I think it's obvious. You tell me. -Schwarg
Schwarg 09-21-04, 03:55 PM	ANY Authority out there or reference would be much appreciated. Please settle this for my group. Thanks. -Schwarg
T-REX 09-21-04, 05:14 PM	This is how it is: - Spell completion (ie scrolls) provoke AoO - Spell trigger (staffs, wands) do not provoke AoO - To activate a magic item (ie boots of flying) doesn't provoke AoO either It is in the dmg and phb, but i'm to lazy to look it up. :D T-rex
zudbash 09-21-04, 05:40 PM	I think it depends if the item is acting like a spell or acting like a weapon. In the case of a wand of Ray of Enfeeblement, for example, it is no different than casting a Ray of Enfeeblement spell (except that activating the wand itself does not provoke, whereas casting the spell does provoke). So the question is, when casting a ranged touch spell are there two AoO (one for casting the spell, one for making a "ranged attack") or just one? A ranged touch attack is very similar to a ranged attack, but I have never seen anyone state that the act of making a ranged touch attack provokes an AoO. If the item is acting like a weapon then it probably should provoke an AoO.
Schwarg 09-21-04, 06:17 PM	Making a ranged touch attack does provoke and AoO. You'd cast defensivily. Right?
cmrscorpio 09-21-04, 06:20 PM	Casting ray of enfeeblement and AoOs when making a touch attack with a spell you are considered armed. PHB 141. it doesn't matter if it is a ranged touch attack or not. You are still considered armed. Only the casting provokes AoOs
Hypersmurf 09-21-04, 06:36 PM	when making a touch attack with a spell you are considered armed. PHB 141. it doesn't matter if it is a ranged touch attack or not. You are still considered armed. You're armed when you throw a dagger as well, but it still provokes an AoO for attacking with a ranged weapon. Now, whether or not a ray is considered a ranged weapon becomes the next question. -Hyp.
zudbash 09-21-04, 11:26 PM	Making a ranged touch attack does provoke and AoO. You'd cast defensivily. Right? Would it matter if you cast defensively? Casting defensively would prevent the AoO for casting the spell, not the AoO for making a ranged attack. I suppose you could say that the ranged attack is part of casting the spell and thus there is only the one AoO. Putting the rules as written aside for a minute, why do ranged attacks draw AoO? Off the top of my head, I would say that it comes from the attacker having to concentrate on aiming at the target. In that case, it would seem that a ranged touch attack would involve the same degree of concentration. So maybe aiming a wand of Ray of Enfeeblement should provoke an AoO?
The_Ditto 09-22-04, 09:20 AM	Would it matter if you cast defensively? Casting defensively would prevent the AoO for casting the spell, not the AoO for making a ranged attack. I suppose you could say that the ranged attack is part of casting the spell and thus there is only the one AoO. I believe the touch for a ranged touch is part of the casting of the spell .. so no, the ranged touch doesn't draw an AoO, only the casting of the spell .. Using a wand which requires a ranged touch does not provoke ... as there is no casting of the spell (ie no spell completion ... just spell trigger ...) I remember our group going over this issue quite thoroughly, and we finally all agreed it didn't because of several quotes that we found ... I'm not sure if I can dig 'em all up again ... *sigh* ... I'll see if I can find the relative quotes again ... :smirk: But basically: Casting a spell such as Shocking Grasp, which is a melee touch attack .. requires the actual attack roll seperately .. since you can hold the charge ... You cannot hold the charge of a ranged touch attack spell (such as Ray of Enfeeblement) .. so the attack roll is part of the spell ... all 1 action .. never 2. Whereas, Shocking Grasp could very easily be 2 seperate actions .. (it could be just 1 as well, since you're allowed the touch during the same round as casting .. but it doesn't make any difference to this discussion .. for a melee touch with a held charge, there is never an AoO .. so the issue is moot). Shocking Grasp = Standard Action (cast spell - AoO) + Free Action (melee touch - no AoO) OR Standard Action (cast spell - AoO) + Standard Action (melee touch - no AoO) Either way ... no AoO .. but it does require (sometimes) a seperate action However .. Ray of Enfeeblement = Standard Action ( Cast spell + Ranged Touch Attack - AoO) ... all rolled into 1 ... never a seperate action - since you can't hold the charge .. so the ranged touch attack does not draw an AoO on it's own ... (in other words, a Ray of Enfeeblement spell cast does not normally draw 2 AoOs ... ) Now, whether or not you can argue that even though the Wand eliminates the AoO for the Cast Spell portion, but the Ranged Touch portion still applies may be debatable .. however, I'd point you to the action chart, and the fact you are "Casting a Spell" .. not "Making a Ranged Attack" ... you may be making a ranged touch attack .. but that's not the same as making a Ranged Attack ... :smirk: ... close .. but not quite .. hehe
Schwarg 09-22-04, 02:46 PM	How is a ranged touch attack different than a ranged attack besides ignoring certain AC modifiers? Conceptually. When you point a wand or a bow or a sling or any item that provides an attack from a range exposes the caster to attack from adjacent foes. I see no difference from it being a magical to a non magical attack, conceptually. Casting you are equally exposed as an individual pulling back a bow as well someone aiming a wand. The chart states a ranged attack does provoke an AoO. Isn't a ranged touch attack a subtype of range attack? Is this wrong? So a wand using that type of an attack would incur an AoO. -Schwarg
Hypersmurf 09-22-04, 03:36 PM	Now, whether or not you can argue that even though the Wand eliminates the AoO for the Cast Spell portion, but the Ranged Touch portion still applies may be debatable .. however, I'd point you to the action chart, and the fact you are "Casting a Spell" .. not "Making a Ranged Attack" ... you may be making a ranged touch attack .. but that's not the same as making a Ranged Attack ... :smirk: ... close .. but not quite .. hehe Oh, I'm certainly not suggesting that you draw an AoO for taking the standard action Attack (Ranged). You're not taking that action at all; you're taking the Activate Magic Item action. However, notice that someone who uses Rapid Shot with a longbow, for example, is not taking the standard action Attack (Ranged), either. He is taking the full round action Full Attack, which does not provoke an AoO. Nevertheless, both shots provoke AoOs individually, because under the text of Attacks of Opportunity in the PHB, we find that an example of a distracting act that provokes an AoO is attacking with a ranged weapon. Even though the action (Full Attack) does not provoke an AoO, attacking with a ranged weapon does. So even though the action (Activate Magic Item) does not provoke an AoO, one can still provoke if, as part of that action, one attacks with a ranged weapon. Which is why I say it's important to decide if a Ray is a ranged weapon or not. -Hyp.
Schwarg 09-22-04, 03:57 PM	I agree. And I think it is obvious that a ray IS a ranged weapon. It is a form of an attack in which you use from range. -Schwarg
dirkformica 09-22-04, 06:05 PM	For those who support the notion that using a Wand to trigger a Ray spell provokes an attack of opportunity because the Ray spell requires a Ranged Touch attack, do you also rule that if someone casts these Ray spells without using the Cast Defensively option that they incur 2 Attacks of Opportunity? By your logic the act of casting would provoke one, and then the act of targeting the spell would provoke a second one. I would never rule that and I would never rule that a Wand provokes an attack of opportunity regardless of what it's casting for the same reason. The rules state that activating a spell trigger item does not provoke an attack of opportunity and, for me, that's the end of the story.
Hypersmurf 09-22-04, 06:10 PM	For those who support the notion that using a Wand to trigger a Ray spell provokes an attack of opportunity because the Ray spell requires a Ranged Touch attack, do you also rule that if someone casts these Ray spells without using the Cast Defensively option that they incur 2 Attacks of Opportunity? By your logic the act of casting would provoke one, and then the act of targeting the spell would provoke a second one. No, for the same reason that atempting a disarm with an unarmed strike does not. You're provoking a single AoO... but for two reasons (attacking with an unarmed strike, and disarming). If someone with Improved Unarmed Strike attempts the same Disarm, he still provokes an AoO... but only for one reason this time. -Hyp.
The_Ditto 09-23-04, 09:32 AM	Oh, I'm certainly not suggesting that you draw an AoO for taking the standard action Attack (Ranged). You're not taking that action at all; you're taking the Activate Magic Item action. However, notice that someone who uses Rapid Shot with a longbow, for example, is not taking the standard action Attack (Ranged), either. He is taking the full round action Full Attack, which does not provoke an AoO. Nevertheless, both shots provoke AoOs individually, because under the text of Attacks of Opportunity in the PHB, we find that an example of a distracting act that provokes an AoO is attacking with a ranged weapon. Even though the action (Full Attack) does not provoke an AoO, attacking with a ranged weapon does. So even though the action (Activate Magic Item) does not provoke an AoO, one can still provoke if, as part of that action, one attacks with a ranged weapon. Which is why I say it's important to decide if a Ray is a ranged weapon or not. -Hyp. True enough .. :tiphat: .. .. all I'm saying (IMHO).. is I'm quite confident that a Ray is not a "ranged weapon" ... it's just a type of spell ... which happens to require an attack roll ... :smirk: .. but then .. that's just me ... :angel: