AofO and Sneak Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

AofO and Sneak Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Greco
09-07-06, 11:38 PM This may be a dumb question, but....
If you are flanking an enemy and "IT" moves out of the treatening square is sneak attack provoked with the AofO?

If it's possible does it depend if you have already performed a sneak attack during your turn before the AofO?
Tempest Stormwind
09-07-06, 11:43 PM This may be a dumb question, but....
If you are flanking an enemy and "IT" moves out of the treatening square is sneak attack provoked?

If it's possible does it depend if you have already performed a sneak attack during your turn before the AofO?
Sneak Attack damage applies to any and all attacks that meet its criteria (that is, you're flanking the target OR the target is denied its Dexterity bonus against the attack).

So, if your opponent provokes an AoO by moving out of your threatened square (without Withdrawing or using a 5' step), and the conditions would be met for a sneak attack (for instance, you're currently flanking him -- AoOs are resolved BEFORE their provocation is, meaning he could start flanked and would count as flanked for the AoO), you deal sneak attack damage on that attack of opportunity.

Do note that you can easily make more than one sneak attack per round. In fact, this is why many rogues go the two-weapon route -- provided the conditions are met for a sneak attack, every attack on his full attack gets sneak attack damage.
runestar
09-08-06, 12:51 AM TWFing rogues aren't really that strong, their 3/4 bab means that their potentially high damage output is offset somewhat by their lower chances of hitting. Plus, there are foes resistant or downright immune to sneak attack.

Although I do like the idea of a thrikeen rogue...:D
sTuMpY
09-08-06, 06:25 AM if a rouges duel wielding and gets a sneak attack does he get it with both weapons or just the first that hits?
Nom
09-08-06, 07:34 AM if a rouges duel wielding and gets a sneak attack does he get it with both weapons or just the first that hits?A rogue gets sneak attack on any attack which qualifies (target abilities notwithstanding), which means any melee attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC, any ranged attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC and the rogue is within 30 ft., and any (melee) attack for which the rogue flanks the target.

So, evaluate the above 3 conditions for each attack. Obviously #2 doesn't apply (since it's ranged), but either or both of the others might.
sTuMpY
09-08-06, 08:38 AM A rogue gets sneak attack on any attack which qualifies (target abilities notwithstanding), which means any melee attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC, any ranged attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC and the rogue is within 30 ft., and any (melee) attack for which the rogue flanks the target.

So, evaluate the above 3 conditions for each attack. Obviously #2 doesn't apply (since it's ranged), but either or both of the others might.

i hate rouges
Nom
09-08-06, 08:51 AM i hate rougesBecause of sneak attack? It's not really that powerful an ability.

Firstly, it's +1d6 per two levels. That might sound good, but realise that the guy with the greatsword starts at 2d6, which is likely +1d6 over you before considering Str bonus to damage or attack bonuses. And your attack bonuses climb slower than his.

Secondly, it requires either loss of Dex to AC or flanking. Flanking is by far the easier of the two to achieve. However, flanking also requires that you be in the thick of combat, which is often sub-optimal for someone with only a d6 hit die and restricted to light armour and no shield (yes, Dex can compensate for the AC).

Thirdly, there are a bunch of creatures that are immune to it, and a bunch of conditions that negate it. Anything that grants concealment to the target negates sneak attack.
coolpenguin410
09-08-06, 11:47 AM Thirdly, there are a bunch of creatures that are immune to it, and a bunch of conditions that negate it. Anything that grants concealment to the target negates sneak attack.

There are ways around this you know. Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Vine Strike allow you to sneak attack constructs, undead and plants respectively. This effectively eliminates most of your opponents who can't be sneak attacked. The only problem is having spellcasters around to cast these and the fact that they last only 1 round. (Yay UMD!)

Also, getting into sneak attack conditions aren't that hard. Quick Draw, Flick of the Wrist, and a light weapon gets you automatic sneak attacks when you draw your weapon. And it's even easier to do with the "sub-optimal" sneak attack/sudden strike classes like the ninja who can turn invisible. Feinting works good too.
Zherog
09-08-06, 12:42 PM UMD won't help - assuming you mean to put those spells in a wand. Activating a wand requires at least a standard action, even if the spell inside the wand is a swift action.
Merestil Haye
09-08-06, 12:57 PM There are ways around this you know. Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Vine Strike allow you to sneak attack constructs, undead and plants respectively. This effectively eliminates most of your opponents who can't be sneak attacked. The only problem is having spellcasters around to cast these and the fact that they last only 1 round. (Yay UMD!)Grave Strike is a cleric spell. Golem Strike is a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Vine Strike is a Druid or Ranger spell. and all of them are Personal - ie no casting them on another.

Thus your rogue is forced to cast them himself. The casting is a swift action - if the character casts a spell rather than activating an item. If you activate an item, the activation time of the device is 1 standard action (according to the Spell Compendium, all items take at least that time to activate). Thus you have to give up one round's actions to sneak attack them at all. Not worth it for one attack per two rounds, and if you close in the round you cast the spell, you risk an all-out attack to KO you before you hit back. (Even then, literalist DMs will simply announce that the spell expires before you start your action - thus houserules are necessary to let it work at all.)
Yalon
09-08-06, 01:08 PM Actually, it's only since Spell Compendium came out that swift and immediate wands, scrolls, and whatnot had to be done as standard actions.

Before that, the RAW indicated that spell trigger items have an activation tiem equal to the spell.

And since Complete Adventurer lists golem strike and the like on wands specifically, and it's safe to say they were intended to be used as such, I allow them.
ShinAkuma2
09-08-06, 01:51 PM And that, my friends, is why we have Imbue with Spell-Like Ability. =)
coolpenguin410
09-08-06, 01:59 PM Yeah, I forgot about standard action to use those items rule. Multiclass characters can still do it. At least the options are there, even if they're hard to pull off. Daggerspell Mages and Assasins could pull off Golem Strike without assistance. But are there any Divine Caster/Stealthy character classes out there? It's hard to picture Ranger/Druid type characters with sneak attack.
Merestil Haye
09-08-06, 03:38 PM Actually, it's only since Spell Compendium came out that swift and immediate wands, scrolls, and whatnot had to be done as standard actions.

Before that, the RAW indicated that spell trigger items have an activation tiem equal to the spell.

And since Complete Adventurer lists golem strike and the like on wands specifically, and it's safe to say they were intended to be used as such, I allow them.This was debated very vigourously last year on these forums; a lot of people thought otherwise.

I eventually joined that camp after reading the text that introduces "wands" in the DMG, which does say that the minimum time to activate a wand is 1 standard action.

I still rule that a scroll takes the casting time of the spell on it to activate, despite what Spell Compendium says, because there is plenty of precedent for scrolls of Quickened spells.

Remember that activating a scroll carries all the same problems as casting a spell - meaning that it provokes AoOs, and the scroll user is subject to ASF (for Golemstrike, anyway), so the rogue needs to invest some skillpoints into Concentration, risk the AoO or accept only one attack with sneak attack - and if she's done so then there are other things she can't do.
ibayboy
09-08-06, 06:33 PM In our latest campaign, I am playing 2 Duergar brothers that are Rog/Fig/Nightsong Enforcer types. The last few outings have been undead intensive, which renders my characters largely ineffective. To combat this yhe DM allowed a wand of Gravestrike to be used by one on the other. We have found this not to overpowered, as ther is always a certain amount of manoevering to get in position and always relying on other party members to provide flanking (where before the brothers worked as a team).
Nom
09-08-06, 08:46 PM Actually, it's only since Spell Compendium came out that swift and immediate wands, scrolls, and whatnot had to be done as standard actions.Considering that Spell Compendium is a non-core expansion and all the spells you pointed to are from non-core expansions, the whole argument is rather moot. "I'm going to allow non-core spells but not non-core clarifications" seems inconsistent to me.

I'm talking about sneak attack, not some optional rule that may or may not overpower it. If I add a new rule that overpowers an existing rule, my first inclination is to blame the new rule not the existing one.
Also, getting into sneak attack conditions aren't that hard. Quick Draw, Flick of the Wrist, and a light weapon gets you automatic sneak attacks when you draw your weapon. And it's even easier to do with the "sub-optimal" sneak attack/sudden strike classes like the ninja who can turn invisible. Feinting works good too.Non-core: ninja, Flick of the wrist. Significant time cost: feinting. None of which negates concealment.

It also misses my core point. Getting one sneak attack generally isn't a big deal. The damage dealt to a single target by a single sneak attack is roughly equivalent to the damage dealt to each of multiple targets by a fireball on a successful save. For sneak attack to really pay off, you need to land multiple sneak attacks in a single round. To do so, you had to start the round within 5 ft (melee) or 35 ft (ranged) of your victim. That's awfully close when you've only got a d6 for your hit die.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Greco 09-07-06, 11:38 PM	This may be a dumb question, but.... If you are flanking an enemy and "IT" moves out of the treatening square is sneak attack provoked with the AofO? If it's possible does it depend if you have already performed a sneak attack during your turn before the AofO?
Tempest Stormwind 09-07-06, 11:43 PM	This may be a dumb question, but.... If you are flanking an enemy and "IT" moves out of the treatening square is sneak attack provoked? If it's possible does it depend if you have already performed a sneak attack during your turn before the AofO? Sneak Attack damage applies to any and all attacks that meet its criteria (that is, you're flanking the target OR the target is denied its Dexterity bonus against the attack). So, if your opponent provokes an AoO by moving out of your threatened square (without Withdrawing or using a 5' step), and the conditions would be met for a sneak attack (for instance, you're currently flanking him -- AoOs are resolved BEFORE their provocation is, meaning he could start flanked and would count as flanked for the AoO), you deal sneak attack damage on that attack of opportunity. Do note that you can easily make more than one sneak attack per round. In fact, this is why many rogues go the two-weapon route -- provided the conditions are met for a sneak attack, every attack on his full attack gets sneak attack damage.
runestar 09-08-06, 12:51 AM	TWFing rogues aren't really that strong, their 3/4 bab means that their potentially high damage output is offset somewhat by their lower chances of hitting. Plus, there are foes resistant or downright immune to sneak attack. Although I do like the idea of a thrikeen rogue...:D
sTuMpY 09-08-06, 06:25 AM	if a rouges duel wielding and gets a sneak attack does he get it with both weapons or just the first that hits?
Nom 09-08-06, 07:34 AM	if a rouges duel wielding and gets a sneak attack does he get it with both weapons or just the first that hits?A rogue gets sneak attack on any attack which qualifies (target abilities notwithstanding), which means any melee attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC, any ranged attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC and the rogue is within 30 ft., and any (melee) attack for which the rogue flanks the target. So, evaluate the above 3 conditions for each attack. Obviously #2 doesn't apply (since it's ranged), but either or both of the others might.
sTuMpY 09-08-06, 08:38 AM	A rogue gets sneak attack on any attack which qualifies (target abilities notwithstanding), which means any melee attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC, any ranged attack for which the target is denied Dex to AC and the rogue is within 30 ft., and any (melee) attack for which the rogue flanks the target. So, evaluate the above 3 conditions for each attack. Obviously #2 doesn't apply (since it's ranged), but either or both of the others might. i hate rouges
Nom 09-08-06, 08:51 AM	i hate rougesBecause of sneak attack? It's not really that powerful an ability. Firstly, it's +1d6 per two levels. That might sound good, but realise that the guy with the greatsword starts at 2d6, which is likely +1d6 over you before considering Str bonus to damage or attack bonuses. And your attack bonuses climb slower than his. Secondly, it requires either loss of Dex to AC or flanking. Flanking is by far the easier of the two to achieve. However, flanking also requires that you be in the thick of combat, which is often sub-optimal for someone with only a d6 hit die and restricted to light armour and no shield (yes, Dex can compensate for the AC). Thirdly, there are a bunch of creatures that are immune to it, and a bunch of conditions that negate it. Anything that grants concealment to the target negates sneak attack.
coolpenguin410 09-08-06, 11:47 AM	Thirdly, there are a bunch of creatures that are immune to it, and a bunch of conditions that negate it. Anything that grants concealment to the target negates sneak attack. There are ways around this you know. Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Vine Strike allow you to sneak attack constructs, undead and plants respectively. This effectively eliminates most of your opponents who can't be sneak attacked. The only problem is having spellcasters around to cast these and the fact that they last only 1 round. (Yay UMD!) Also, getting into sneak attack conditions aren't that hard. Quick Draw, Flick of the Wrist, and a light weapon gets you automatic sneak attacks when you draw your weapon. And it's even easier to do with the "sub-optimal" sneak attack/sudden strike classes like the ninja who can turn invisible. Feinting works good too.
Zherog 09-08-06, 12:42 PM	UMD won't help - assuming you mean to put those spells in a wand. Activating a wand requires at least a standard action, even if the spell inside the wand is a swift action.
Merestil Haye 09-08-06, 12:57 PM	There are ways around this you know. Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Vine Strike allow you to sneak attack constructs, undead and plants respectively. This effectively eliminates most of your opponents who can't be sneak attacked. The only problem is having spellcasters around to cast these and the fact that they last only 1 round. (Yay UMD!)Grave Strike is a cleric spell. Golem Strike is a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Vine Strike is a Druid or Ranger spell. and all of them are Personal - ie no casting them on another. Thus your rogue is forced to cast them himself. The casting is a swift action - if the character casts a spell rather than activating an item. If you activate an item, the activation time of the device is 1 standard action (according to the Spell Compendium, all items take at least that time to activate). Thus you have to give up one round's actions to sneak attack them at all. Not worth it for one attack per two rounds, and if you close in the round you cast the spell, you risk an all-out attack to KO you before you hit back. (Even then, literalist DMs will simply announce that the spell expires before you start your action - thus houserules are necessary to let it work at all.)
Yalon 09-08-06, 01:08 PM	Actually, it's only since Spell Compendium came out that swift and immediate wands, scrolls, and whatnot had to be done as standard actions. Before that, the RAW indicated that spell trigger items have an activation tiem equal to the spell. And since Complete Adventurer lists golem strike and the like on wands specifically, and it's safe to say they were intended to be used as such, I allow them.
ShinAkuma2 09-08-06, 01:51 PM	And that, my friends, is why we have Imbue with Spell-Like Ability. =)
coolpenguin410 09-08-06, 01:59 PM	Yeah, I forgot about standard action to use those items rule. Multiclass characters can still do it. At least the options are there, even if they're hard to pull off. Daggerspell Mages and Assasins could pull off Golem Strike without assistance. But are there any Divine Caster/Stealthy character classes out there? It's hard to picture Ranger/Druid type characters with sneak attack.
Merestil Haye 09-08-06, 03:38 PM	Actually, it's only since Spell Compendium came out that swift and immediate wands, scrolls, and whatnot had to be done as standard actions. Before that, the RAW indicated that spell trigger items have an activation tiem equal to the spell. And since Complete Adventurer lists golem strike and the like on wands specifically, and it's safe to say they were intended to be used as such, I allow them.This was debated very vigourously last year on these forums; a lot of people thought otherwise. I eventually joined that camp after reading the text that introduces "wands" in the DMG, which does say that the minimum time to activate a wand is 1 standard action. I still rule that a scroll takes the casting time of the spell on it to activate, despite what Spell Compendium says, because there is plenty of precedent for scrolls of Quickened spells. Remember that activating a scroll carries all the same problems as casting a spell - meaning that it provokes AoOs, and the scroll user is subject to ASF (for Golemstrike, anyway), so the rogue needs to invest some skillpoints into Concentration, risk the AoO or accept only one attack with sneak attack - and if she's done so then there are other things she can't do.
ibayboy 09-08-06, 06:33 PM	In our latest campaign, I am playing 2 Duergar brothers that are Rog/Fig/Nightsong Enforcer types. The last few outings have been undead intensive, which renders my characters largely ineffective. To combat this yhe DM allowed a wand of Gravestrike to be used by one on the other. We have found this not to overpowered, as ther is always a certain amount of manoevering to get in position and always relying on other party members to provide flanking (where before the brothers worked as a team).
Nom 09-08-06, 08:46 PM	Actually, it's only since Spell Compendium came out that swift and immediate wands, scrolls, and whatnot had to be done as standard actions.Considering that Spell Compendium is a non-core expansion and all the spells you pointed to are from non-core expansions, the whole argument is rather moot. "I'm going to allow non-core spells but not non-core clarifications" seems inconsistent to me. I'm talking about sneak attack, not some optional rule that may or may not overpower it. If I add a new rule that overpowers an existing rule, my first inclination is to blame the new rule not the existing one. Also, getting into sneak attack conditions aren't that hard. Quick Draw, Flick of the Wrist, and a light weapon gets you automatic sneak attacks when you draw your weapon. And it's even easier to do with the "sub-optimal" sneak attack/sudden strike classes like the ninja who can turn invisible. Feinting works good too.Non-core: ninja, Flick of the wrist. Significant time cost: feinting. None of which negates concealment. It also misses my core point. Getting one sneak attack generally isn't a big deal. The damage dealt to a single target by a single sneak attack is roughly equivalent to the damage dealt to each of multiple targets by a fireball on a successful save. For sneak attack to really pay off, you need to land multiple sneak attacks in a single round. To do so, you had to start the round within 5 ft (melee) or 35 ft (ranged) of your victim. That's awfully close when you've only got a d6 for your hit die.