AoO and Trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO and Trip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
philosofool
02-05-05, 10:48 AM I was reading the posts about the best 1st level weapon in the What's a DM to Do forum, and the following was posted:

Not precisely accurate. Referencing the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles on Attacks of Opportunity:
Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after.
You can use any special attack that you can use as a melee attack as an attack of opportunity. That includes disarming, grabbing someone to grapple, sunder, or trip. In the case of a trip attack, you must make the trip attack with whatever weapon you're using to threaten the area where you're making the attack of opportunity. (Empahsis mine)
Since an AoO is resolved before the triggering action, it is possible to keep an opponent prone through a series of trip attacks. The attempt to regain one's feet provokes an AoO. Making a trip attack is a valid AoO, and is resolved before the rise attempt is resolved. If the trip AoO succeeds, the foe is tripped and stays prone. If it fails, the foe manages to get back on its feet.

Obviously, this becomes nasty when one tosses in Improved Trip: Successful trip attack = free melee attack (with the opponent's AC at -4). Getting up = AoO, which could be another trip attack, which - if successful - equals another free melee attack. Rinse and repeat until the opponent wises up and rolls away from the tripper before getting up...

All that sounds well reasoned, but I'm stilll skeptical that you can trip a prone opponent. The idea is that the AoO puts the character back on his butt, but that seems wrong to me. The trip attempt is made as an AoO, if successful the character would be tripped but since that character isn't yet standing, that can't be effective. And since the character hasn't used his move action, he can still stand after the ineffectual trip attack.

As I see it, here's what goes down in this situation:
Character decides to rise from prone, provoking attacks of opportunity
Before the character acts, AoOs are resolved. We know that the character is prone when this happens because the +4 bonus to attack applies to the AoOs.
Character acts

But that means the character hasn't used any of his action in the case of rising from prone, since nothing she's done counts as an action until after the actacks of opportunity are resolved. (Movement AoO might be different--the character might move, hence using some of her action, and then provoke AoO, in which case she doesn't still have a full action to use.)
Celt
02-05-05, 11:06 AM I do it like this:

Prone character announces he will stand up, provoking AoO. AoO is resolved before the character actually stands, meaning the character is still prone, meaning the attacker gets a +4 bonus. You can't trip a prone target (in my mind at least, I don't think there is a defined rule against it) so you can't use a trip attempt here, but any other AoO special attack will do.

This alleviates the problem that a prone character has. If one can be continually tripped, a tripped character is as good as dead. Getting up from prone is dangerous, hence the provocation of the AoO and the +4 bonus. But you should have at least some chance of surviving a trip.
Egres
02-05-05, 11:25 AM All that sounds well reasoned, but I'm stilll skeptical that you can trip a prone opponent.
It's not well reasoned at all.

Frrom the Main 3.5 FAQ:

When a character gets up from prone, when does the
attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone?
When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to
attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit.
In the other, he can make another trip attack.

All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that
trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When
you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s
getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot
be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after
he gets up, however.
philosofool
02-05-05, 11:59 AM It's not well reasoned at all.

I was trying to be nice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
philosofool 02-05-05, 10:48 AM	I was reading the posts about the best 1st level weapon in the What's a DM to Do forum, and the following was posted: Not precisely accurate. Referencing the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles on Attacks of Opportunity: Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. You can use any special attack that you can use as a melee attack as an attack of opportunity. That includes disarming, grabbing someone to grapple, sunder, or trip. In the case of a trip attack, you must make the trip attack with whatever weapon you're using to threaten the area where you're making the attack of opportunity. (Empahsis mine) Since an AoO is resolved before the triggering action, it is possible to keep an opponent prone through a series of trip attacks. The attempt to regain one's feet provokes an AoO. Making a trip attack is a valid AoO, and is resolved before the rise attempt is resolved. If the trip AoO succeeds, the foe is tripped and stays prone. If it fails, the foe manages to get back on its feet. Obviously, this becomes nasty when one tosses in Improved Trip: Successful trip attack = free melee attack (with the opponent's AC at -4). Getting up = AoO, which could be another trip attack, which - if successful - equals another free melee attack. Rinse and repeat until the opponent wises up and rolls away from the tripper before getting up... All that sounds well reasoned, but I'm stilll skeptical that you can trip a prone opponent. The idea is that the AoO puts the character back on his butt, but that seems wrong to me. The trip attempt is made as an AoO, if successful the character would be tripped but since that character isn't yet standing, that can't be effective. And since the character hasn't used his move action, he can still stand after the ineffectual trip attack. As I see it, here's what goes down in this situation: Character decides to rise from prone, provoking attacks of opportunity Before the character acts, AoOs are resolved. We know that the character is prone when this happens because the +4 bonus to attack applies to the AoOs. Character acts But that means the character hasn't used any of his action in the case of rising from prone, since nothing she's done counts as an action until after the actacks of opportunity are resolved. (Movement AoO might be different--the character might move, hence using some of her action, and then provoke AoO, in which case she doesn't still have a full action to use.)
Celt 02-05-05, 11:06 AM	I do it like this: Prone character announces he will stand up, provoking AoO. AoO is resolved before the character actually stands, meaning the character is still prone, meaning the attacker gets a +4 bonus. You can't trip a prone target (in my mind at least, I don't think there is a defined rule against it) so you can't use a trip attempt here, but any other AoO special attack will do. This alleviates the problem that a prone character has. If one can be continually tripped, a tripped character is as good as dead. Getting up from prone is dangerous, hence the provocation of the AoO and the +4 bonus. But you should have at least some chance of surviving a trip.
Egres 02-05-05, 11:25 AM	All that sounds well reasoned, but I'm stilll skeptical that you can trip a prone opponent. It's not well reasoned at all. Frrom the Main 3.5 FAQ: When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit. In the other, he can make another trip attack. All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.
philosofool 02-05-05, 11:59 AM	It's not well reasoned at all. I was trying to be nice.