AoO newbie questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO newbie questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arcador
09-01-04, 02:24 AM Well, this theme was probably started around 200 times, but the old database is ...anyway:
-can you do trip, grapple, dissarm as melee atack on AoO, and if you can, what happens to the AoO you provoke?
-can one use feats like cleave, power attack in AoO (my guess is no)?

This is not an AoO question, but - can one combine feats like power attack,+ cleave + spring attack ?
or Whirwind + cleave ? and sort of ermm odd stuff?

Thanks for the patience.
Kheldren
09-01-04, 03:17 AM Q-can you do trip, grapple, dissarm as melee atack on AoO, and if you can, what happens to the AoO you provoke?
A. According to the strict rules yes you can, but it is often house-ruled to 'no'. As for the AoO you provoke - it gets messy, very messy. You have to work backwards through the stack of opposed trips (or whatever) to find out what happens. Note, however, that even with Combat Reflexes you may only make one AoO on each target so it should be a fairly short stack. So between 2 fighters neither with improved trip: A decides to trip B, B uses his AoO to trip A, A uses his AoO to disarm B - no more AoOs though A provokes. Start with the last attack - it is first chronologically - A disarming B, then B tripping A finally A tripping B. It is quite possible that the original attack planned is not possible (which is the point of the AoOs anyway).

Q-can one use feats like cleave, power attack in AoO (my guess is no)?
A. Power Attack - you do not get an option on this one, whatever Power Attack bonus you decided to use last round remains in place until your next action when you can change it. This may be good (when you want the Power Attack) or bad (when the PA will make you miss).
Cleave - technically yes, but there has been a lot of discussion on this and some people are very unhappy with this concept - ask your DM.

Q-This is not an AoO question, but - can one combine feats like power attack,+ cleave + spring attack ?
or Whirwind + cleave ? and sort of ermm odd stuff?
A. Very definitly yes, but remember on the PA + Cleave that all cleaves must have the same PA modifiers as the original hit - PA is per round not per attack.
Inigo Carmine
09-01-04, 03:18 AM Yes, you can trip disarm or grapple as an AoO. Look at the bottom right of the table on pg 141 in the PHB.

The AoO interrupts the flow of combat. If you provoke an AoO with it, then that AoO against you is resolved first, your AoO you were making is then resolved, and then the original provoking action is resolved.

As non-sensical as it sounds, you can cleave off of an AoO.

You cannot choose to use (or not use) power attack on an AoO. If you had used it on your previous turn, it carries over to the AoO as well (same for expertise, fighting defensively, etc). So in efect, it can be used during an AoO, but you don't get to choose it when the AoO is provoked.

There is no limit to the number of feats you use at any time, though some may be mutually exclusive. Cleave and whirlwind, for instance, cannot be used together because if you read the whirlwind feat description, you'll see you lose any extra attacks gained by other feats. This means you cannot use the extra attack gained by cleave.

As for power attack, spring attack and cleave, they sure can be used together. There's nothing preventing it.
Arcador
09-01-04, 05:32 AM Thanks for the time.

to Kheldren - well, I am the DM :)
Before, I forbid the use of those actions as AoO, unless the player got the improved variant, But sure, I will try those AoO chainworks. Lets try to describe this : Fighter trys to trip the Gnoll with his hooked end of his weapon, the Gnoll spots low guard and a new hit opportunity is avaiable for him, but since the Fighter is armored like no tomorrow so the Gnoll decides to disarm the fighter (as more easy task). But then the fighter spots that the gnoll is trying to move closer and attempt tricky arts so he quickly jumps and grapple the gnoll (and this is the end, since the Gnoll have not combat reflx.), so here it goes : Gnoll try's to avoid and push the fighter away, after this (if not IN the grapple) disarms the fighter, and AFTER that the fighter trips the gnoll, if he is not disarmed (cuz he can only trip with his type of weapon) or in a graple. Cool huh ...just like those trade card games : "I counter, I counter your counter, but I got anti counter of such counters!" :D .

Now for the AoO Cleave, Here is my idea for the house rule: If you drop someone with your AoO and got cleave, you can attack someone near, but since AoO means you spot someones weak point in their guard, then the immediate strike must be done againts: 1)Someone provoking another AoO - BUT this cannot be done since if you Provoke AoO it must be resolved immediately so I decided : 2) To be able to use cleave if one's got combat reflexes as another used free strike from the turn's limit AoO.
Anyway the variants of such combos are unlimited, so this is one of the role of DM.
Kheldren
09-01-04, 08:32 AM When I responded I wrote "Note, however, that even with Combat Reflexes you may only make one AoO on each target so it should be a fairly short stack."
I wrote this because it was raised during the game I play in and the reference prohibiting this was pointed out to me - or that is what my memory says. However we are mainly playing 3.0 with some 3.5 and I was checking the 3.5 SRD on something else and lo and behold:
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). so the stack is a bit bigger than I thought.
I must remember to check where the one AoO per opponent limit comes from though - can anyone help on this?
electrosis
09-01-04, 09:26 AM Perhaps there was a change from 3.0 to 3.5 in that respect because I recall the rule as well but sure enough it states in the 3.5 book you can have multiple AoO on the same target from diffrent actions in a round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcador 09-01-04, 02:24 AM	Well, this theme was probably started around 200 times, but the old database is ...anyway: -can you do trip, grapple, dissarm as melee atack on AoO, and if you can, what happens to the AoO you provoke? -can one use feats like cleave, power attack in AoO (my guess is no)? This is not an AoO question, but - can one combine feats like power attack,+ cleave + spring attack ? or Whirwind + cleave ? and sort of ermm odd stuff? Thanks for the patience.
Kheldren 09-01-04, 03:17 AM	Q-can you do trip, grapple, dissarm as melee atack on AoO, and if you can, what happens to the AoO you provoke? A. According to the strict rules yes you can, but it is often house-ruled to 'no'. As for the AoO you provoke - it gets messy, very messy. You have to work backwards through the stack of opposed trips (or whatever) to find out what happens. Note, however, that even with Combat Reflexes you may only make one AoO on each target so it should be a fairly short stack. So between 2 fighters neither with improved trip: A decides to trip B, B uses his AoO to trip A, A uses his AoO to disarm B - no more AoOs though A provokes. Start with the last attack - it is first chronologically - A disarming B, then B tripping A finally A tripping B. It is quite possible that the original attack planned is not possible (which is the point of the AoOs anyway). Q-can one use feats like cleave, power attack in AoO (my guess is no)? A. Power Attack - you do not get an option on this one, whatever Power Attack bonus you decided to use last round remains in place until your next action when you can change it. This may be good (when you want the Power Attack) or bad (when the PA will make you miss). Cleave - technically yes, but there has been a lot of discussion on this and some people are very unhappy with this concept - ask your DM. Q-This is not an AoO question, but - can one combine feats like power attack,+ cleave + spring attack ? or Whirwind + cleave ? and sort of ermm odd stuff? A. Very definitly yes, but remember on the PA + Cleave that all cleaves must have the same PA modifiers as the original hit - PA is per round not per attack.
Inigo Carmine 09-01-04, 03:18 AM	Yes, you can trip disarm or grapple as an AoO. Look at the bottom right of the table on pg 141 in the PHB. The AoO interrupts the flow of combat. If you provoke an AoO with it, then that AoO against you is resolved first, your AoO you were making is then resolved, and then the original provoking action is resolved. As non-sensical as it sounds, you can cleave off of an AoO. You cannot choose to use (or not use) power attack on an AoO. If you had used it on your previous turn, it carries over to the AoO as well (same for expertise, fighting defensively, etc). So in efect, it can be used during an AoO, but you don't get to choose it when the AoO is provoked. There is no limit to the number of feats you use at any time, though some may be mutually exclusive. Cleave and whirlwind, for instance, cannot be used together because if you read the whirlwind feat description, you'll see you lose any extra attacks gained by other feats. This means you cannot use the extra attack gained by cleave. As for power attack, spring attack and cleave, they sure can be used together. There's nothing preventing it.
Arcador 09-01-04, 05:32 AM	Thanks for the time. to Kheldren - well, I am the DM :) Before, I forbid the use of those actions as AoO, unless the player got the improved variant, But sure, I will try those AoO chainworks. Lets try to describe this : Fighter trys to trip the Gnoll with his hooked end of his weapon, the Gnoll spots low guard and a new hit opportunity is avaiable for him, but since the Fighter is armored like no tomorrow so the Gnoll decides to disarm the fighter (as more easy task). But then the fighter spots that the gnoll is trying to move closer and attempt tricky arts so he quickly jumps and grapple the gnoll (and this is the end, since the Gnoll have not combat reflx.), so here it goes : Gnoll try's to avoid and push the fighter away, after this (if not IN the grapple) disarms the fighter, and AFTER that the fighter trips the gnoll, if he is not disarmed (cuz he can only trip with his type of weapon) or in a graple. Cool huh ...just like those trade card games : "I counter, I counter your counter, but I got anti counter of such counters!" :D . Now for the AoO Cleave, Here is my idea for the house rule: If you drop someone with your AoO and got cleave, you can attack someone near, but since AoO means you spot someones weak point in their guard, then the immediate strike must be done againts: 1)Someone provoking another AoO - BUT this cannot be done since if you Provoke AoO it must be resolved immediately so I decided : 2) To be able to use cleave if one's got combat reflexes as another used free strike from the turn's limit AoO. Anyway the variants of such combos are unlimited, so this is one of the role of DM.
Kheldren 09-01-04, 08:32 AM	When I responded I wrote "Note, however, that even with Combat Reflexes you may only make one AoO on each target so it should be a fairly short stack." I wrote this because it was raised during the game I play in and the reference prohibiting this was pointed out to me - or that is what my memory says. However we are mainly playing 3.0 with some 3.5 and I was checking the 3.5 SRD on something else and lo and behold: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). so the stack is a bit bigger than I thought. I must remember to check where the one AoO per opponent limit comes from though - can anyone help on this?
electrosis 09-01-04, 09:26 AM	Perhaps there was a change from 3.0 to 3.5 in that respect because I recall the rule as well but sure enough it states in the 3.5 book you can have multiple AoO on the same target from diffrent actions in a round.