AoO on grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO on grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cencio
07-18-06, 07:30 AM i have a large half-dragon. He threat 10ft with his natural weapon. He try to grapple from 10ft with a melee touch attach. He provoke an AoO, but the enemy threat only 5ft around him so my half-dragon isn't in a threatened area.

Conlusion: Can the enemy make the AoO?

thx!
tarkin
07-18-06, 07:51 AM Some say No. This is most likely what you would get in a WoTC approved game (Gen Con/Living City, etc.)

Others rule that by definition, part of your body is in reach - the attacking part. Normally that would be a sunder or a disarm. But as you are using a natural weapon, it would just be a regular attack.
kjenks
07-18-06, 08:00 AM The Main 3.5e FAQ says no.
Inigo Carmine
07-18-06, 12:38 PM If you don't threaten someone, you don't get an AoO. Reach is powerful.
Tony Vargas
07-18-06, 01:23 PM The rules on AoOs pretty clearly require you to be threatening. But, as always a given DM might rule otherwise. It's quite reasonable, for instance, to allow in this case, as you have the larger character reaching for an armed character - it's not hard to picture the smaller character slashing the hand that's about to grab him in defense. In fact, it's rather difficult to picture him not trying to do so.
primemover003
07-18-06, 04:24 PM Actually unless the creature has Improved Grab he still has to enter the target's Space to grapple... that alone should be reason enough to get an AoO in on them. While the rules say otherwise that's just how I envision it.
Tony Vargas
07-18-06, 04:54 PM Actually unless the creature has Improved Grab he still has to enter the target's Space to grapple... that alone should be reason enough to get an AoO in on them. While the rules say otherwise that's just how I envision it.The rules do say otherwise...

Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

But, I suppose if you want to tweak the rules at this point, rather than back in step 1 with the original AoO, you're welcome to, and it might even work out. You'd have to decide if the AoO for movinging into your square still spoils the grapple like the AoO for initiating the grapple normaly does, and if that AoO goes for all characters, or just those who evade the initial grapple via reach.

Another interesting glitch in the rules: A creature with a lot of reach can move a distance for free, just by starting a grapple. You can also escape from a grapple, ending in any space adjacent to your opponent, which, for a big creature can also represent a little free movement. A huge creature, for isntance, could move 30' by starting a grapple with a medium creature just within it's reach, then escaping from the grapple and choosing an adjacent square opposite it's old position. A Cloud Giant, for instance, is Huge and gets 3 itterative attacks. A Hasted Cloud Giant could do that, for instance, and still attack a third creature within reach of it's final position with a BAB-10 and a full-BAB attack. For that matter, it could 5'-step, make a full BAB attack (with a one-handed weapon) on a victim within 15', then grapple that victim, escape from the grapple (using it's itterative attacks), ending another 30' away, and attack a different character up to 15' away (50' of it's original position) at full BAB.
primemover003
07-18-06, 05:52 PM Damn, I forgot about that line in step 4 of the grapple section. But it does remind me that the movement provokes from others outside the grapple!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cencio 07-18-06, 07:30 AM	i have a large half-dragon. He threat 10ft with his natural weapon. He try to grapple from 10ft with a melee touch attach. He provoke an AoO, but the enemy threat only 5ft around him so my half-dragon isn't in a threatened area. Conlusion: Can the enemy make the AoO? thx!
tarkin 07-18-06, 07:51 AM	Some say No. This is most likely what you would get in a WoTC approved game (Gen Con/Living City, etc.) Others rule that by definition, part of your body is in reach - the attacking part. Normally that would be a sunder or a disarm. But as you are using a natural weapon, it would just be a regular attack.
kjenks 07-18-06, 08:00 AM	The Main 3.5e FAQ says no.
Inigo Carmine 07-18-06, 12:38 PM	If you don't threaten someone, you don't get an AoO. Reach is powerful.
Tony Vargas 07-18-06, 01:23 PM	The rules on AoOs pretty clearly require you to be threatening. But, as always a given DM might rule otherwise. It's quite reasonable, for instance, to allow in this case, as you have the larger character reaching for an armed character - it's not hard to picture the smaller character slashing the hand that's about to grab him in defense. In fact, it's rather difficult to picture him not trying to do so.
primemover003 07-18-06, 04:24 PM	Actually unless the creature has Improved Grab he still has to enter the target's Space to grapple... that alone should be reason enough to get an AoO in on them. While the rules say otherwise that's just how I envision it.
Tony Vargas 07-18-06, 04:54 PM	Actually unless the creature has Improved Grab he still has to enter the target's Space to grapple... that alone should be reason enough to get an AoO in on them. While the rules say otherwise that's just how I envision it.The rules do say otherwise... Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. But, I suppose if you want to tweak the rules at this point, rather than back in step 1 with the original AoO, you're welcome to, and it might even work out. You'd have to decide if the AoO for movinging into your square still spoils the grapple like the AoO for initiating the grapple normaly does, and if that AoO goes for all characters, or just those who evade the initial grapple via reach. Another interesting glitch in the rules: A creature with a lot of reach can move a distance for free, just by starting a grapple. You can also escape from a grapple, ending in any space adjacent to your opponent, which, for a big creature can also represent a little free movement. A huge creature, for isntance, could move 30' by starting a grapple with a medium creature just within it's reach, then escaping from the grapple and choosing an adjacent square opposite it's old position. A Cloud Giant, for instance, is Huge and gets 3 itterative attacks. A Hasted Cloud Giant could do that, for instance, and still attack a third creature within reach of it's final position with a BAB-10 and a full-BAB attack. For that matter, it could 5'-step, make a full BAB attack (with a one-handed weapon) on a victim within 15', then grapple that victim, escape from the grapple (using it's itterative attacks), ending another 30' away, and attack a different character up to 15' away (50' of it's original position) at full BAB.
primemover003 07-18-06, 05:52 PM	Damn, I forgot about that line in step 4 of the grapple section. But it does remind me that the movement provokes from others outside the grapple!