Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kalmarjan 12-29-05, 11:31 AM	Wonder if you all could help settle a debate for me. Here is the situation. An ogre trips an opponent successfully, making the taget prone. The target gets up, which provokes an AOO. The argument is not about whether you can trip someone while they are down; You can't. The AOO takes place before the action, effectively making it impossible to trip someone who is not standing. The question is: Does an AOO, if successful, prevent the prone opponent from standing up? Does this keep the opponent down? Sandeman
Sceadeau 12-29-05, 11:36 AM	Attacks of Opportunities do not typically prevent the action from going off. A notable exception is the AoO from someone starting a grapple without improved grapple. That is the exception, however, and not the rule.
phelanarcetus 12-29-05, 11:49 AM	With the AoO not being a trip attack, I cannot see it keeping the target down. Unless, of course, it puts them into a situation where they cannot complete the act of standing; dead, unconscious, stunned... This doesn't mean that you can't keep the target screwed over with the AoO. Disarm them as they stand, and now they're standing, but need to blow another move action to get that weapon back. Definitely a good time for a Monk to try his Stunning Fist.
Hanniball 12-29-05, 02:12 PM	The argument is not about whether you can trip someone while they are down; You can't. The AOO takes place before the action, effectively making it impossible to trip someone who is not standing. Actually it's perfectly legal to "trip" someone while they are already prone. Read the rules for trip and you will find that a prone creature is still a viable target. This does absolutely nothing for the person making said AoO as their target simply finishes his action of standing up. Performing an action that provokes AoOs doesn't prevent that action from taking place. There are cases where it could, such as drinking a potion, provoking AoO, opponent chooses sunder potion as attack action... Either way...just my 0.02 cp
DuctShuiTengu 12-29-05, 10:43 PM	Just going to chip in my :twocents: here. As... pretty-much everyone has said already, no, attacking a prone character as they're trying to get up does not prevent them from completing the action of getting up. That said, I personally would probably allow the person in question to instead attempt to prevent the character from getting back up. It's not RAW, and I'm not entirely sure how I'd work out the system for this, but it's a thought.
DonGnocci 12-29-05, 10:47 PM	Well... if a character is so good in tripping that he trips his opponent every time he stands up, it's like *stands up* *trip* *poff* *stands up* and so on...
EvilVegan 12-29-05, 10:56 PM	You can't do it with an AoO, but perhaps a readied action to trip them whenever they're done standing?
Gil Gwath 12-30-05, 05:36 AM	You can't do it with an AoO, but perhaps a readied action to trip them whenever they're done standing? if you just tripped him you can't ready any action. if it was a frined of yours who tripped him and you act before the tripped guy, you can ready an action "when he stan up i [attack/trip/cast/whatever]"
Ghenesh 12-30-05, 08:41 AM	It's pretty much stupid letting someone stand up if he/she get's tripped while standing, we have a house rule that make you lose your Move Action if you get tripped or grappled during an AoO that you provoked in your Move Action. It makes combat more realistic and tactical.
Feor 12-30-05, 08:52 AM	Yeah, I don't see why, as your AoO you couldn't "Knock him back down" or "Stand on his chest" or something like that. Probably take opposing ability checks (STR for the stand on him one, Dex to knock him back over, he could maybe use escape artist instead if he had it) but would be a viable tactic, IMHO.
Horatio Hornblower 12-30-05, 09:27 AM	If you got someone prone and you want to keep them that way you need to get down there and grapple. It's wrastlin' time, boys. Seriously, your character is standing in the next square (5 feet away). Your opponent has plenty of room to get up if you're just standing there holding a melee weapon. Sure you get an AoO, but if you want to keep him down you have to actually put your hands on him. The rules are fine. Your tactics need to change.
Tsuul 12-30-05, 12:26 PM	You can't do it with an AoO, but perhaps a readied action to trip them whenever they're done standing?Evilvegan is right. As for not being able to ready an action after you trip...you trip them as an AoO, or you have your buddy do it.
kalmarjan 12-30-05, 03:29 PM	If you got someone prone and you want to keep them that way you need to get down there and grapple. It's wrastlin' time, boys. Seriously, your character is standing in the next square (5 feet away). Your opponent has plenty of room to get up if you're just standing there holding a melee weapon. Sure you get an AoO, but if you want to keep him down you have to actually put your hands on him. The rules are fine. Your tactics need to change. If you make an unarmed grapple against a prone opponent that is stading up, you trigger an AOO. This starts an AOO chain. First resolved is the AOO for the grappling check, then the AOO grapple. If the opponent is successful with the AOO, then the grapple automatically fails. So, with this tactic, your opponent has a good chance to stand up. (Negating the whole point of this discussion). Now, just with thinking about this, it really does not matter to a reach creature whether you stand up or not. If a creature has a reach of 10', then that creature gets an AOO when you stand up, and one as you leave his threatened space. (If the creature is allowed more than 1 AOO per round. If not, on the second round.) This can be pretty devestating, consider an Ettin for instance, with a morningstar, a trip attack is succussful, it moves in 5 feet. Then as you get up, it can deal you up to 25 damage (with its power attack.) as an AOO. Lets say you decide to move the next round, it then could get another AOO, dealing up to another 25 points of damage! (You cannot take a 5' step if you made a move action during the same round.) At that point, it can also attack for another potential for 25 damage. All in all, pretty hurtful to say the least. Sandeman
Bounces 12-30-05, 03:47 PM	My group has houseruled that you can trip someone standing up to prevent them getting up. I guess we kind of decided that the two acts are nigh simultaneous...you can't trip someone that is laying on their back, but you can sweep the feet out from under someone that just got them back underthem. This works up until you get a druid-direwolf with improved trip. I bite him. I trip him. He stands up. I trip him, I bite him, I trip him. As an extension to this discussion...If you have the trip ability (as wolf...if attack is successful you get a free trip attack) and you have improved trip (as feat...if trip is successful you get a free attack) does this create a never ending string of death?
striderII 12-30-05, 04:02 PM	If you got someone prone and you want to keep them that way you need to get down there and grapple. It's wrastlin' time, boys. Seriously, your character is standing in the next square (5 feet away). Your opponent has plenty of room to get up if you're just standing there holding a melee weapon. Sure you get an AoO, but if you want to keep him down you have to actually put your hands on him. The rules are fine. Your tactics need to change. Okay...so let me ask you this...let's say you trip some schlub. Your ally, beside you, as a spear or polearm or something. You're saying there's no way for him to use that long pole weapon to skewer buddy to the ground? Or otherwise pin him down? The RAW may or may not cover this, but my common sense says that it shouldn't be too difficult to pin a prone combatant to the ground with a spear or similar weapon. strider
Horatio Hornblower 12-30-05, 04:12 PM	If you make an unarmed grapple against a prone opponent that is stading up, you trigger an AOO. This starts an AOO chain. First resolved is the AOO for the grappling check, then the AOO grapple. If the opponent is successful with the AOO, then the grapple automatically fails. So, with this tactic, your opponent has a good chance to stand up. (Negating the whole point of this discussion). It does get complicated. If you want to trip people and keep them down then you need to be good at grappling so your opponent doesn't have a good chance of getting up. Personally, I've never been fond of trip attacks. Keeping them prone is a pain. Unless there's a good tactical reason for it at the time I'd prefer to just do as much damage as posible with multiple attacks. Now, just with thinking about this, it really does not matter to a reach creature whether you stand up or not. If a creature has a reach of 10', then that creature gets an AOO when you stand up, and one as you leave his threatened space. (If the creature is allowed more than 1 AOO per round. If not, on the second round.) This can be pretty devestating, consider an Ettin for instance, with a morningstar, a trip attack is succussful, it moves in 5 feet. Then as you get up, it can deal you up to 25 damage (with its power attack.) as an AOO. Lets say you decide to move the next round, it then could get another AOO, dealing up to another 25 points of damage! (You cannot take a 5' step if you made a move action during the same round.) At that point, it can also attack for another potential for 25 damage. Wow, I'll have to remeber that next time something big attacks the party. :devil: Now that's a good use of a trip attack.
AOG_Rogue 12-30-05, 04:20 PM	From the FAQ: " When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit. In the other, he can make another trip attack. All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however." Given this ruling, you cannot effectively use the AOO generated by someone standing up to trip them. A trip attack on a prone creature has no effect. On the good side, the AOO you make will have a +4 bonus to hit since the creature is still consider prone when you attack occurs. A truly nasty tactic is to ready a trip attack on a create after it stands up. In that case you get your normal AOO when it trys to stand up, then the creature stands up, then your readied trip attack occurs and you have the opportunity to knock it prone once again. The really nice thing about this tactic is that when you ready, your initiative is reset such that you act just BEFORE the creature that triggers the readied action. So you will still get to act before the creature takes their next rounds action. Also, if you succeed in tripping the creature and it decides to take its standard action as a second movement action to stand up, you can make another AOO even if you do not have combat reflexes since your "round has reset" when your readied action occurs. Some strict GMs could rule standing up twice in the same round is one action and therefor you would not get a second AOO.
Horatio Hornblower 12-30-05, 04:26 PM	Okay...so let me ask you this...let's say you trip some schlub. Your ally, beside you, as a spear or polearm or something. You're saying there's no way for him to use that long pole weapon to skewer buddy to the ground? Or otherwise pin him down? The RAW may or may not cover this, but my common sense says that it shouldn't be too difficult to pin a prone combatant to the ground with a spear or similar weapon. strider Now that's a different situation with two on one. Your buddy can attack while the opponent is down. I don't think RAW covers this, but it would be reasonable to say that a polearm or such could be used to try to pin a prone individual. You would say that "If I hit I am going to try to pin him by not pulling my weapon back." The target should be able to make some sort of grapple check at a minus to break free before he could stand.
striderII 12-30-05, 04:33 PM	Now that's a different situation with two on one. Your buddy can attack while the opponent is down. I don't think RAW covers this, but it would be reasonable to say that a polearm or such could be used to try to pin a prone individual. You would say that "If I hit I am going to try to pin him by not pulling my weapon back." The target should be able to make some sort of grapple check at a minus to break free before he could stand. Okay, then...let's say you're using a halberd (I think you can use that to trip, yes?), and you take a full attack. How about tripping with the first attack, then pinning the opponent with the halberd? The rules don't cover that. Which is fine by me, as I have no issue with making rules up on the fly. Some others, who seemingly live and die by what's in the rules, might not like that so much. strider
ScipioX 12-30-05, 05:07 PM	Wow, I have to say I'm pretty flabbergasted. Tripping is already ridiculously over powered in 3.5. Making houserules that make tripping even better just seems silly. And as far as 'common sense' goes, pinning somebody who is down doesn't make any sense either. The only way to pin somebody to the ground would be to impale him... If you're just threatening him with your polearm to try and keep him down, then all you can do is try and stab him as he stands (which is exactly what an AoO represents.) A mook will be skewered by your attack, while a heroic character should be able to knock the threatening weapon aside while he leaps to his feat, perhaps taking a scratch on the arm in the process. The rules are written with game balance in mind (mostly). When they don't seem to jibe with common sense, its probably better to explain away the inconsistency with creative description, instead of making up house rules that unbalance the game.
kalmarjan 12-30-05, 05:21 PM	The rules are written with game balance in mind (mostly). When they don't seem to jibe with common sense, its probably better to explain away the inconsistency with creative description, instead of making up house rules that unbalance the game. I always get a laugh out of this when I hear "common sense" used in the same sentence as "the game." You are apsolutely right when you say the game sometimes does not make common sense. Its not supposed to. Spells? Feats? Hmmm.... Okay, I do not think that the trip attack is any more broken than other things in the game. How you adjuticate them is what is important. My example of the Ettin above is easily balanced by something that negates the high attack bonus of the ettin. Such as armor, magic force armor etc. The point of this is to bring a fresh challenge to this old tired monster. Your players will wake up in a hurry if this ettin set up an ambush, and could make for a memorable encounter. Sandeman
phelanarcetus 12-30-05, 05:47 PM	Tripping is very powerful in 3.5... if you are fighting something that you can reliably trip. A fighter with Improved Trip, when engaged with something with four legs and a size category or two bigger than him (when buffed and enlarged as he may be for most fights), is not going to be using his Improved Trip feat. Because he just won't succeed, considering the size, legs, and strength bonuses of the target. Really, it depends on what you're fighting. Against another humanoid your size, or smaller, tripping is an excellent tool to limit their options and effectively lower their AC against melee attacks. Of course, those things that are basically immune to you tripping them... are going to do very well tripping you. But also... what does it mean to trip, say, a flying or swimming creature? If you trip something flying via wings, does it begin to fall? Lose a move action needing to stabilize itself? What about something flying via magic? What does being prone mean to a fish in water? There are circumstances in which something like tripping is meaningless and nonsensical. If you want someone to stay down, it's get an ally to trip them, and ready an action to trip when they stand... or grapple them once they're down. Alternately, find a way to keep them down with the AoO, such as stunning. Or use the AoO to disarm a melee fighter, say, leaving him still in need of Quick Draw or another move action before he can be effective.
striderII 12-30-05, 05:50 PM	Wow, I have to say I'm pretty flabbergasted. Tripping is already ridiculously over powered in 3.5. Making houserules that make tripping even better just seems silly. And as far as 'common sense' goes, pinning somebody who is down doesn't make any sense either. The only way to pin somebody to the ground would be to impale him... If you're just threatening him with your polearm to try and keep him down, then all you can do is try and stab him as he stands (which is exactly what an AoO represents.) A mook will be skewered by your attack, while a heroic character should be able to knock the threatening weapon aside while he leaps to his feat, perhaps taking a scratch on the arm in the process. The rules are written with game balance in mind (mostly). When they don't seem to jibe with common sense, its probably better to explain away the inconsistency with creative description, instead of making up house rules that unbalance the game. And that's your perogative. I, however, like the realistic elements of the game to, well, reflect reality, which the weapon representations in D&D don't adequately do in most ways. And yes, by "pin", I did mean "impale". And no, I don't think it's unreasonable at all - after all, said "heroic character" on the ground is likely getting attacked by another "heroic character", and thus, the skill levels equal out, resulting in skewered "heroic character". Your mileage, especially of use of common sense when the rules don't adequately cover a situation, may vary. strider
Horatio Hornblower 12-31-05, 12:31 AM	Okay, then...let's say you're using a halberd (I think you can use that to trip, yes?), and you take a full attack. How about tripping with the first attack, then pinning the opponent with the halberd? The rules don't cover that. If the DM allows for pinning an opponent like we discussed before then I would think that would work. Trip with the first attack and pin with the second. Now I see a problem with pinning an opponent. Your weapon is stuck in the guy and he probably has grabbed the shaft of your weapon trying to pull it out. So if one of his friends moves up to attack you then you got a big problem. If you don't drop your weapon you should get a minus on your AC. If you do drop it you would not be able to draw a weapon until your next turn. I think this whole trip and pin idea works best as a team effort.
Surreal 12-31-05, 01:03 AM	So if a raging ogre with Knockback and Rapaging Bull Rush hits me me with an AoO as I'm getting up, I fail the opposed check and the brute sends me flying 20 feet and I fall prone, I still get up as part of my move action?
Lotus Crane 12-31-05, 02:37 AM	Regardless of what you consider flavor, common sense, or "realistic tactics," it was a conscious decision during playtesting to make "infinite loop of trips" impossible to do without severely breaking unintended PrC/feat/weapon/race/template combos. So yes, I am opposed to using an AoO to prevent a prone creature from getting back up; it's unfair and ridiculous that the first person to successfully use a mundane attack (tripping) maintains a +4 combat bonus over his opponent for the rest of the fight, with (in some cases) no chance for him to ever get back up. No matter how skilled the tripper, for his opponent to spend more than 50% of the fight on the ground is just wrong and stupid.
JadeSpider9643 12-31-05, 08:17 AM	My group has houseruled that you can trip someone standing up to prevent them getting up. I guess we kind of decided that the two acts are nigh simultaneous...you can't trip someone that is laying on their back, but you can sweep the feet out from under someone that just got them back underthem. This works up until you get a druid-direwolf with improved trip. I bite him. I trip him. He stands up. I trip him, I bite him, I trip him. As an extension to this discussion...If you have the trip ability (as wolf...if attack is successful you get a free trip attack) and you have improved trip (as feat...if trip is successful you get a free attack) does this create a never ending string of death? Other than Improved trip requireing combat expertise, which requires a 13 Int and a wolf having only a 2 int(and I'm sure I can find a way around that little obstacle)....I don't see why not. And frankly that worries me...other than the DMs limit on free actions per round I'm not sure what would end the vicious cycle other than a failed trip check/attack?
Tsuul 12-31-05, 12:16 PM	his works up until you get a druid-direwolf with improved trip. I bite him. I trip him. He stands up. I trip him, I bite him, I trip him. As an extension to this discussion...If you have the trip ability (as wolf...if attack is successful you get a free trip attack) and you have improved trip (as feat...if trip is successful you get a free attack) does this create a never ending string of death?The 3.0 philosophy of free attacks not triggering more free attacks is still valid in 3.5. Improved Trip: You get a free attack after a trip as though you didn't give up an attack to trip. But if the attack you used to trip was only usable for a trip(the case for a wolf trip after a bite), what kind of attack does that leave? None, or to be technical, another trip; which is useless against a tripped foe.
kalmarjan 01-01-06, 07:21 PM	Quote: his works up until you get a druid-direwolf with improved trip. Code: I bite him. I trip him. He stands up. I trip him, I bite him, I trip him. As an extension to this discussion...If you have the trip ability (as wolf...if attack is successful you get a free trip attack) and you have improved trip (as feat...if trip is successful you get a free attack) does this create a never ending string of death? The 3.0 philosophy of free attacks not triggering more free attacks is still valid in 3.5. Improved Trip: You get a free attack after a trip as though you didn't give up an attack to trip. But if the attack you used to trip was only usable for a trip(the case for a wolf trip after a bite), what kind of attack does that leave? None, or to be technical, another trip; which is useless against a tripped foe. Hmmm.. This is not quite right. The Code sequence should read : I bite him. Then I trip him. Then he tries to get up, so I bite him, then he gets up. The reasoning for this is that unless the wolf has Combat Reflexes, he only gets one AOO per round. Even with Combat reflexes, he only adds his dex modifier to the number of AOO he recieves in a round. This may cause a loop, but the rules already state that the AOO happens before the prone opponent gets up, thus nullifying the trip. If the AOO could be used to prevent them from getting up, at most this would happen until the Wolf (or character) ran out of AOO. (Which would be one time only.) Now, if the wolf had the Combat reflexes feat, that would only afford them an extra 3 AOO. This could be a house rule that you can prevent the creature from getting up... but we are also assuming that all the creature could do when prone was stand up. There are some feat combinations that would negate this penalty.. So I guess it would be up to the DMs in this case. It makes tactical sense to trip your opponent, and this combo would make creatures such as the Chain Devil that much more potent. Is it broken? I don't think so. Is it deadly? Yes. But only if the opponent has nothing to counter the attacks. For me, I could see Tumbling 5 feet to avoid the AOO and then standing up, then using a feat like improved grapple to really rain hurt on that Wolf. Sandeman
ScipioX 01-01-06, 07:42 PM	And yes, by "pin", I did mean "impale". And no, I don't think it's unreasonable at all - after all, said "heroic character" on the ground is likely getting attacked by another "heroic character", and thus, the skill levels equal out, resulting in skewered "heroic character". Your mileage, especially of use of common sense when the rules don't adequately cover a situation, may vary. strider I can't see a way that you can reconcile impaling a character in a HP based system. If somebody is impaled, that's a mortal wound. Doesn't make any sense to be able to impale a barbarian with 200 hp left just because he's on the ground.
kalmarjan 01-01-06, 10:54 PM	Have you ever watched Terminator 2? In one of the final scenes the original T1 gets impaled by the T2000. In this sense, you could rule that the characyer is pinned, just not dead. Also, it may not necessarily be a mortal wound. There is a good chance you could miss any vital organs. I guess that is a good explanation of HP then. LOL Sandeman