Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mikeg710 09-12-04, 04:48 AM	Can anyone refer me to the 3.5 source (rulebook, FAQ, errata, etc.) where it explains if an attack of opportunity can provoke an attack of opportunity (and so on)? If no such 3.5 reference exists, does anyone know if this is legit? Can there be an "endless" chain of provoked AoOs waiting to resolve if this is allowed? Thanks in advance! ;)
Mordmorgan the Mad 09-12-04, 05:16 AM	I believe that's covered in the combat chapter in the PHB. In theory, I guess you could have an endless string of AoO's, but I can't think of situation where that'd happen.
billboyjones 09-12-04, 06:25 AM	Can anyone refer me to the 3.5 source (rulebook, FAQ, errata, etc.) where it explains if an attack of opportunity can provoke an attack of opportunity (and so on)? If no such 3.5 reference exists, does anyone know if this is legit? Can there be an "endless" chain of provoked AoOs waiting to resolve if this is allowed? Thanks in advance! ;) I wouldn't think so. An AoO is a single melee attack. What single melee attack provokes an AoO?? None that I can think of.
SALDAR 09-12-04, 07:16 AM	An unarmed strike, without the improved unarmed strike faet, provokes an AoO, although you could only make one AoO for that action per round. As for infinite AoOs, this would only be possible with an unlimited number of AoOs per round.
DM Zoc 09-12-04, 07:21 AM	I thought that, if you didn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, then you were not capable of making unarmed AoO's.
americanjay 09-12-04, 07:22 AM	AoO can draw an AoO. AoO chains always end, because nothing allows you to make unlimited AoO's. (You normally have 1 per round. Combat reflexes can add to this, but not endlessly.)
D.A.Dervish 09-12-04, 07:31 AM	How about this: Two combatants, each dual wielding and using the karmic strike feat from complete warrior (AoO against someone who hits you). The first combatant attacks, thus provoking an attack of opportunity used to attack, which in turn triggers an AoO from the other combatant, who gets an AoO. And so on. Mix in the double hit feat from miniatures handbook and you get two AoOs for each opportunity, which provokes four AoOs, which provokes eight, and so on. Now add improved combat reflexes (an epic feat, allowing unlimited AoOs per round). This creates an endless circle of AoOs, getting more and more all the time. Considering the AoO happens before the action that triggers it, nothing will ever happen in that fight, but a lot of potentially successful attacks will be delivered in one round. /D.A.Dervish PS. On the topic: Yes, I think an AoO can provoke, after all, you can use an AoO to do anything you could with an attack action, like disarming or sundering.
Egres 09-12-04, 10:04 AM	AoO can draw an AoO. AoO chains always end, because nothing allows you to make unlimited AoO's. (You normally have 1 per round. Combat reflexes can add to this, but not endlessly.) Actually,an endless chain of AoO is possible with this feat: From the SRD: IMPROVED COMBAT REFLEXES [EPIC] Prerequisites: Dex 21, Combat Reflexes. Benefit: There is no limit to the number of attacks of opportunity the character can make in one round. (the character still can’t make more than one attack of opportunity for a given oppertunity.)
americanjay 09-12-04, 05:43 PM	Wow, I did not know that feat.... right... I also discovered the 3.0 phb actually says you can't make unarmed AoO's when the other person makes an AoO-drawing-unarmed-attack. Which leaves the practical example of the endless AoO chain to our imagination?
Veton 09-12-04, 05:46 PM	Actually,an endless chain of AoO is possible with this feat: From the SRD: IMPROVED COMBAT REFLEXES [EPIC] Prerequisites: Dex 21, Combat Reflexes. Benefit: There is no limit to the number of attacks of opportunity the character can make in one round. (the character still can’t make more than one attack of opportunity for a given oppertunity.) Note where it says that you can't make more then one AoO for a given oppertunity. So even that wouldn't be endless.
Sidious 09-12-04, 05:54 PM	On page 137, of the PHB 3.5, An attack of oppurtunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. There ya go.
Mind Rogue 09-12-04, 05:58 PM	You can sunder, trip, or disarm as an attack of opportunity, and if you don't have the proper feats, they provoke an attack of opportunity, so... You can use and AoO to provoke an AoO.
Egres 09-12-04, 08:30 PM	You can sunder, trip, or disarm as an attack of opportunity, and if you don't have the proper feats, they provoke an attack of opportunity, so... You can use and AoO to provoke an AoO. Right. And in this way you can start an endless chain of AoO.
Egres 09-12-04, 08:31 PM	On page 137, of the PHB 3.5, There ya go. Uh? From the SRD: COMBAT REFLEXES [GENERAL] Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed
SALDAR 09-12-04, 09:54 PM	The epic feat allows infinite AoO but the number of AoO is limited by the number of actions that provoke AoO. Each action that provokes an AoO can provoke only one AoO per round. Casting a spell, for example, provokes an AoO from a given opponent. Casting two spells in a round provokes only one AoO from a given opponent as you are repeating an action and the AoO rules do not allow you to make a second AoO for a repeated action. This in and of itself would limit the number of AoO. Trip, disarm, and sunder may or may not, depending on how you interpret the AoO rules above, be considered outside this as they are "special attacks" and provoke AoOs without the proper feats. By the AoO RAW, making two trip, disarm or sunder attempts in the same round against the same opponent should only provoke one AoO as it is the same action being repeated. But by the RAW for trip, disarm, and sunder, each time you make one of these "special attacks" without the proper feat you provoke an AoO. In my group if the RAW for a specific action or effect specifically states the action or effect does something each time it is attempted, such as AoO for these special attacks, then these RAW override the general rules. As such, it may be theoretically possible to create an infinite chain of AoO, but you can only trip someone until they decide to stay down, disarm someone until they run out of weapons, and sunder until every item they wear or hold in hand is destroyed. Then the chain breaks.
Tonus 09-12-04, 10:10 PM	There is nothing preventing an AOO from provoking another AOO, but the chain will never be endless. Normally you can take only one AOO per round, and even if both combatants have Combat Reflexes, they have a finite number of AOOs they may take in a round. In actual practice, it would be rare for more than a couple exchanges to take place. It's generally a bad idea to provoke an AOO if you don't need to, and most folks interested in using special attacks (trip, disarm, etc.) will take the feats that eliminate the AOO in the first place.
masterofmayhem 09-12-04, 11:06 PM	OK . . . So several people have been repeating the same things over and over. I'll bottomline it: You can provoke an AoO on an AoO, and an endless chain can be started if both people have improved combat reflexes. Example: Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Etc. . . P.S. That is right, right?
Naeron 09-13-04, 05:29 AM	Right. And in this way you can start an endless chain of AoO. No, its not an endless chain of AoO. Its a chain of potential AoO's. If you consider 2 fighters with disarming weapons but without Improved Disarm they can enter a chain where each tries to disarm the other and provokes an AoO. The AoO's bounce back and forward. However as soon as one of the fighters decides to use his AoO with any action that does not provoke an AoO he gets to take that action and then his opponent takes the provoking action. The first fighter doesn't get another AoO because he has already used his one for that opportunity and the second doesn't get an AoO because the action the first performed didnt provoke an AoO. The AoO chain is only ever of potential AoO's.
Egres 09-13-04, 10:39 AM	No, its not an endless chain of AoO. Its a chain of potential AoO's. If you consider 2 fighters with disarming weapons but without Improved Disarm they can enter a chain where each tries to disarm the other and provokes an AoO. The AoO's bounce back and forward. However as soon as one of the fighters decides to use his AoO with any action that does not provoke an AoO he gets to take that action and then his opponent takes the provoking action. The first fighter doesn't get another AoO because he has already used his one for that opportunity and the second doesn't get an AoO because the action the first performed didnt provoke an AoO. The AoO chain is only ever of potential AoO's. ? Ok,perhaps it's due to my bad english. Let's try again. What i'm trying to say is that ,for example, if i and one friendly fighter choose to make an absurd rule-fight, we can decide to start an endless chain of AoO trying to Sundering each other's weapon.
mikeg710 09-13-04, 03:40 PM	Can there be an "endless" chain of provoked AoOs waiting to resolve if this is allowed?My "endless" reference seems to have been taken slightly out of context. I wasn't trying to imply a truly "endless-to-infinity" chain, merely a large series of potentially provoked AoOs. Sorry for the confusion! :blush: The general consensus seems to be an AoO can provoke AoO. Can anyone direct me to the 3.5 source material where this is stated? Thanks!
Kainy 09-13-04, 06:48 PM	We've already established that as an AoO, you can take an action that will provoke another AoO, which could ALSO be an action that would provoke an AoO. For instance: Bob attacks Jim with a trip attack, he doesn't have Improved trip. Jim gets an AoO. Jim decides to trip Bob back, but he doesn't have Improved trip either. Bob gets an AoO. If both have the ALREADY POSTED epic feat that allows an infinite amount of AoOs in a round, then this can go on forever. I'd rule that you can only make as many AoOs in a round as you normally have in your full attack routine, against a single target, even with that epic feat. Mainly to alleviate this problem.
Pentar 09-13-04, 07:20 PM	OK . . . So several people have been repeating the same things over and over. I'll bottomline it: You can provoke an AoO on an AoO, and an endless chain can be started if both people have improved combat reflexes. Example: Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Player: I disarm him. DM: OK, you don't have Improved disarm, so that's an AoO. He disarms you. You get an AoO. Etc. . . P.S. That is right, right? Uh. No. No matter what feat you have, you may only ever take one AoO against the same target per presented opportunity. He trips you and you get an AoO, so you attempt to trip him, which provokes an AoO in which he elects to trip you again. THat's it. It was his trip attack that drew the first AoO and the chain ends. Think about it this way: A guy with 4 attacks makes 4 consecutive trip attacks against the same person. You only get ONE AoO against the tripper, even though he's making four attempts. In addition to which, in the above example; Player 1 : I attempt to trip. I don't have Improved trip so I provoke an AoO. The DM Says: Ok, the Foe attempts to trip you as his AoO. He doesn't have Improved Trip either and draws an AoO. Player 1: Ok, I resolve my first trip and succeed. The DM Says: Ok, your foe falls over, but makes his trip attempt simultaneously. He succeeds. You both fall. Now that both are fallen, how can they make further AoO? At some point, the actions have to RESOLVE, in which case, the endless AoOs end.
masterofmayhem 09-13-04, 07:44 PM	No matter what feat you have, you may only ever take one AoO against the same target per presented opportunity. Can you please provide rules or a quote to back up your statement? (This thread has something of a similar topic) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4377022#post4377022) What i'm trying to say is that ,for example, if i and one friendly fighter choose to make an absurd rule-fight, we can decide to start an endless chain of AoO trying to Sundering each other's weapon. Right. No, its not an endless chain of AoO. Its a chain of potential AoO's. The AoO chain is only ever of potential AoO's. Yes that is what everyone has been saying. You CAN. As in "to be able to." That does not mean you have to, as some people seem to be getting confused. CAN does not mean that you have to do it! You can start an endless chain means that you are able to do so, but that doesn't mean that you have to. At least, that's the general consensus. EDIT: Sorry for the shouting, everyone, I'm a little frazzled . . .
Simetrical 09-13-04, 08:43 PM	From the SRD: Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: . . . This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity . . . Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. . . .You can't make more than one AoO for a given opportunity, but if one opponent presents you with multiple opportunities, you get an AoO for all of them. The one, explicitly stated exception is movement. If your opponent tries to trip you four times in one round, you get four AoO's with Combat Reflexes (Dex permitting). Personally, I'd resolve a loop via initiative. Whoever had the higher initiative would get to choose who took the first AoO (and the chain would resolve itself pretty quickly after that, probably with one person on the ground/one weapon destroyed/one person disarmed/etc.).